Casualties in the pursuit of greatness

How far should we go in the pursuit of greatness? Should we risk a somewhat reliable situation for an unknown one? Are gut feelings really the best way to decide these things? Bands are like marriages, right? So should i really settle down with someone im not that in to? Even if they are talented and nice and lovely people?

If you can't be with the one you love, honey, browbeat and belittle the one you're with.

sigh, thats SO much work. Its almost MORE work than dumping the dude. Seriously anyone ever had to make a call like this?

So your scenario is that you're in a band with someone who you like, but you don't feel like the music that you're making is what you want to do? And you currently want to focus on music as your own expression rather than compromised/group expression? And you want to 'get somewhere' with music, and you don't feel like you can in this group? Right?

In that case, I'd say leave. If you were with someone a bit lame but you were having loads of fun or being productive, then I'd say stay. If you just wanted to mess around a bit and didn't care where you went, I'd say stay. But it sounds like you don't really want to do the same things, so it'd probably be better for you not to carry on.

Obviously, there are things you can do in between: try taking the lead a bit more, try talking stuff out, play around with the styles you use, rework old stuff, alter your expectations of what the music industry is going to give to you... but ultimately, if you don't want to be there, then there's nothing you can change.

kicking someone out of a band who you still like but can't play for shit is v difficult

well, its a bit different than that. i started this whole thing on my own: I wrote the songs, made the arrangements, got the label and have pretty much been the driving force behind it all. Im the one making schedules, finding gigs, etc. So i wonder if i should just work with what i've got, or pursue some imagined ideal (which may very well exist, but may be much harder to find), does that make sense? I guess im trying not to think that the "grass is greener"...but sometimes it is!

if you're already at that point, that is already got the songs/label/gigs, i'd say the grass is definitely greener.

so sonder, you're thinking you would take the risk? I've got about 3 months to pull it together, which is doable. The rest of the band is on track and ready to roll. I'm trying not to be shady about any of it, but the bassist and I are talkign about having secret auditions. makes me feel icky but, hence the thread title :/ just curious if anyone has had to deal with this before? I have once before but i didn't really liek the person so it was way easier lol.

If you want this person who you're thinking of ditching to be more involved, have you tried asking them to be more involved?

I wrote the songs, made the arrangements, got the label and have pretty much been the driving force behind it all. Im the one making schedules, finding gigs,

Maybe because of this they feel that they can't be more involved, even if they wanted to be, because they'd be stepping on people's toes?

You've got a drummer (or some other musician) who is "nice" and "talented" which are code-words for "we're not close" and "he's not that great", and you're debating firing him and hiring a new one but your gigs are three months away. Is that correct?

Maybe because of this they feel that they can't be more involved, even if they wanted to be, because they'd be stepping on people's toes?

― Radical Jedward (snoball), Friday, June 1, 2012 11:59 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ah yes good point. well, I told all of them from the very start Im not interested in putting a band together just to back me up. i want peers, people who take their jobs as seriously as I take mine. Like Avengers style, know what i mean? Autonomous agents with dominon over their specific powers/areas of expertise. But even a year later, he still kinda hovers around the edges waiting for me to tell him what to do and thats where im getting frustrated with him (and kinda turned off).

you're debating firing him and hiring a new one but your gigs are three months away. Is that correct?

yes, and not just any gig, its the debut album launch (full dis.: he's ON the album, and though it took quite a bit of editing magic i feel obligated to him because of this).

And its not just about his performance (which is, tbf, really pretty good). It more about connection. The bassist and him are really not getting on well, musically or socially. They sound good when we play but the bassist is often forced to carry the rhythm section which has occasionally led to minor explosions (lets just say a bass has flown across the room a few times lol). The bassist and i are very close friends and i know he's over the drummer, ive tried getting them to connect somehow but it just doesn't seem to be happening

hers my little pro/con list:

pros
•very nice guy
•has helped pay for things like the rehearsal space, etc from time to time
•shows up on time
•fairly solid performer
•is on the album (kinda awkward if he leaves i guess)

cons
•doesn't practice on his own time, ever (like, wtf dude)
•i have yet to agree with him on anything aesthetic/artistic. pretty much any visual/non-musical stuff we are on two different planets
•is very resistant to input or alterations
•not very ambitious
•not 'in synch' with bassist
•album cuts needed quite a bit of work

i mean, the dilema is that we ARE good, but i dont want just 'good' i want 'awesome'. is it a dick/foolish/dramaqueen move to ditch 'good' for the unknown, in the pursuit of awesome? i suppose im asking both a practical question and a moral one.

I can't give any informed input on this because my band was terrible and we broke up because:

- the drummer went crazy and had himself committed
- the guitarist had a pulmonary embolism and almost died
- the bass player cheated on his wife and was thrown out of his house, which was our rehearsal space

So most of my advice revolves around "make sure no one is crazy, deathly ill, or cheating on their partner/spouse/SO and everything else will work itself out"

xp So basically your drummer is Ringo - nice guy, solid drummer, but a bit laid back. Meanwhile you and the bassist want the drummer to be more like Keith Moon, ie, giving the bassist something to push against and work with. No matter what you say about your band being 'autonomous agents', to continue the Avengers metaphor, you are NICK FURY. It's up to you to communicate to the drummer that you want him to push the bassist.

is it a dick/foolish/dramaqueen move to ditch 'good' for the unknown, in the pursuit of awesome?

It's a bad idea, not least because there's no way that you're going to get a replacement drummer up to speed in 3 months.

DJP your band sounds awesome. snoball OTM. If it was any other musician, no problem.

haha! DJP you poor guy! sounds like quiet an adventure (or sorts). Really need to hear what you guys made together lol! No we're all pretty tame, if anyones gonna loose their shit/die suddenly/destroy everything, its me.

you are NICK FURY. It's up to you to communicate to the drummer that you want him to push the bassist.

i liek to think im the Iron Man of the bunch (tech savy, smart ass, cavalier, delusional, etc - tho im most likely Dr.Banner: timid, afraid of my own strength, stupid when angry) but you are right, it's ultimately my responsibility to get this team off the ground and ive talked with the drummer a few times about all of this, and nothings really changed. He wont practice on his own, so he comes in cold every time and on top of that, he wont take input from the bassist (or me really). Anytime we try to expand a part or finesse an ending he just fights us every step of it. I'm not sure if he's lazy or what. And when i give up and say, "ok do what you feel works then", i'm usually pretty disappointed ;_;

the Ringo comparison is actually kinda dead on! if only we had the other three....

i don't know what kind of music you're playing but 3 months is a pretty long time imo to get up to speed? if the new drummer can just listen to your cd and learn the songs even more so.

of the pros you mention it's mostly the money thing that could be a problem. though that's only if you have bought like a pa system or whatever together, not just money for rent.

ah, well moneys not so important. it was all part of my 10-year plan to get myself a decent "sub-career" just to pay for all this, so i've got a budget aside just for the band. I'm not rolling in cash or anything but ive managed to cover our costs so far (album and all). I'm not sure he would be a 'loss' in any real way (god damn that sounds fucking cold...). But, ya, i think three months with a focused, motivated player could totally happen. The risk is if i cant find that person or if it takes 2 months to find them haha. But then, theres always hired guns.

i frittered away whatever talent i may have someday had in either promising-at-the-start-but-ultimately-awful bands, or bands that had plenty of talent but somehow just didn't jell. Sometimes you just gotta look at each other and say, "this isn't working".

dsvoris I feel like you've already decided to kick this guy out. Do it! But before you do, you should probably figure out what and how you want to pay him for the work he did on your record.

its true i do want something else, but i guess Im questioning myself as to why and whether or not its a wise thing to do.

i frittered away whatever talent i may have someday had in either promising-at-the-start-but-ultimately-awful bands, or bands that had plenty of talent but somehow just didn't jell. Sometimes you just gotta look at each other and say, "this isn't working".

― Lee971 (Lee626), Friday, June 1, 2012 7:17 PM (36 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i hear you and i've been there. i dont think we're in a bad place really but i feel like we've reached his ceiling. And maybe this is my own inflated ego talking here, but i just wish it went higher. I mean maybe im not really any better at what i do than he is. Honestly, if the bassist hadnt brought this up Id probably never do anything about it, but its kind of a problem when the rhythm section is at odds with itself. Just cant tell if this a foolish move to make.

dsvoris I feel like you've already decided to kick this guy out. Do it! But before you do, you should probably figure out what and how you want to pay him for the work he did on your record.

― poxen, Friday, June 1, 2012 7:24 PM (40 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I like the idea of something else, but maybe thats just silly of me. And not too worry, everyones on contract for cuts and was paid for their recording sessions. i mean he may still be able to be the drummer i want/need, but a years gone by and its still the same ambivalent "meh" feeling. this is such a drag, its worse than dating!

and was paid for their recording sessions

wow!

haha are you making fun of me? well anyway, i smoked a HUGE bowl last night and sat on the patio to think about all this and i decided that i owe him another chance. maybe i really havent communicated well, or maybe there's something holding him back. i think this is one of those problems that needs to solve itself. I definitely believe in this guy, so really.... the decision is up to him. i just need to help him decide whether we're right for him, and ill respect his choice either way. and thanks guys, this was a hard thing to talk about, really appreciate the feedback ^ ^

I think it depends on how easily you can get another drummer. In some music scenes, finding drummers and bassists can be hard to aquire, as there are way more bands than rhythm sections. If you got contacts and can get someone solid that can make it work in the interim, you are probably cool, but if musicians are hard to aquire, you could find yourself not playing at all, which may be better or worse than trying to lurch forward with what you got.

I've tried to be cold blooded and just lay it out as it is a few times to some millstones, but in the end a few times it just tripped up the whole project and then are back to starting over in some ways.

That said, if the drummer doesn't like to play, you can't fix that. And there is a huge chunk of people that seem to play music, yet are more into the things around music than actually playing.

haha are you making fun of me?

nah i've just never been paid for a recording session by a band that i was in, and most of the time wasn't paid by bands that i wasn't in (that was usually helping friends out though, it's cool).

How did Encyclopedia Redd know that the OP was trolling?

i no troll! but seriously im still not sold on this dude but yeah, i think maybe the macro issues are out weighing the micro ones. Im usually pretty quick with the execution squad but i think, this one time, im jst gonna have to accept that this is what i made my bed with

ha I just discovered the ReverbNation for the aforementioned spectacularly imploded band is still up:

http://www.reverbnation.com/unwarrantedhighfives/songs