Reverb: help me sort out some control issues?

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Right. So. I use lots of reverb. But I also like the different parts of a mix to stay really distinct from one another, all very small and clear and separable. Most of my current reverb options work against that: as soon as they've created the big, open sound I like, they wind up throwing lots of sludge into the mix, making the original instrument less distict and diffusing it out into the space around it. Using reverb as a central send effect helps a little, but that makes it impossible to give instruments different reverb effects and placements. Giving each instrument its own reverb patch and then EQing it down to narrow frequency also helps, but in lots of cases the sounds wind up too EQ-limited, too cold or grating or one-dimensional.

What I'm looking for: the ability to give an instrument a very reverbed sound/feel without actually having it spread out to occupy lots of space in the mix. I.e., a reverb that feels less like adding echoes and reflections of something, and more like just making the sound richer and more spatially-distinct at the source.

So, I dunno -- have any of you thought about or dealt with this problem? I'm hoping to find some technique that can help me with this. Good reverb plug-in suggestions would be helpful, too; none of my software can actually accommodate them, but I can probably export tracks to Audacity or something and do reverb treatments there.

Reverbs I like: Soft Pink Truth on Do You Want New Wave (really dry, minimal sound but a really human sense of room space around it), Kraftwerk on The Man-Machine (warm and full but still ultra-distinct), Broadcast on Tender Buttons (e.g. the psych effect reverb swirl on "Tears in the Typing Pool"), and Jim O'Rourke stuff (e.g. Eureka, every sound super-crisp and distinct but with a full, roomy sound).

― nabiscothingy, Thursday, 27 October 2005 17:01 (nineteen years ago)

Maybe try experimenting with short delays rather than reverbs. Another possibility is that you might be using too much reverb. If you set the wet/dry mix to a very low amount you can sometimes add a nice ambience that doesn't really sound like noticable reverb but you'll notice that it's gone when you bypass the plugin.

Mac or PC?

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 27 October 2005 17:29 (nineteen years ago)

Also you may want to try using stereo effect sends and paning them. That way you can create a stereo image for the reverb rather than having a huge wall of gunk.

― Pablo (Pablo A), Thursday, 27 October 2005 17:34 (nineteen years ago)

Another thing that has helped me is to visualize what you're trying to do spatially and then treat different instruments accordingly. In other words rather than starting to throw plugins on different tracks, plan out different groups of instruments and decide where to place them -- way in the back, up close and dry, etc. If you can divide your arrangement into just a few groupings of instruments and then give each grouping a very clear and distinct placement I think you'll end up with a much more interesting sonic image than if you're trying to place dozens of tracks each in their own individual space.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 27 October 2005 17:38 (nineteen years ago)

Thanks! It's a PC, Walter. And you're absolutely right: I've had lots of success with micro-delays when it comes to vocals. (With any sort of accented or plucky instrument, though, it can rattle a bit.)

I've tried to do detailed space-mapping stuff before, but part of the problem here is getting stuff into the right spot to begin with. E.g. the dense-reverb bleedy problem I'm having means that stuff that's meant to be reverbed to the back actually swells up and becomes the dominant color for the whole thing. Part of this is just down to my crap set-up -- the reverbs in Reason 1.0 are pretty limited, and seem to be geared mostly toward the synths in the package ... and if I export raw files to do effects and mixing in Cakewalk / Soundforge / elsewhere I lose control of some of the mix arrangements I had started in Reason.

I think this mostly bugs me because of the great sound I get when I run sound from computer to 4-track -- between hardware effects and tape saturation, the 4-track tone is exactly what I like. But my arrangements have too many parts for that!

― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 27 October 2005 17:55 (nineteen years ago)

I'm no expert, but one rule of thumb - the busier a part is, the less reverb it needs. Otherwise, yeah, stuff just gets muddied and you lose attack.

― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 27 October 2005 18:10 (nineteen years ago)

Here's a free convolution reverb for the PC http://www.knufinke.de/sir/index_en.html

And here's a site with tons of good impulses you can download:
http://www.noisevault.com/

I don't know if you can run VST plugins but if so, that will give you a ton of territory to explore. Look for impulses of old EMT plate reverbs, spring reverbs, real rooms, etc.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 27 October 2005 18:19 (nineteen years ago)

my 2 pence worth, have a think about the stereo field - pan your tracks across the image, then match the reverbs in mono directly corresponding with the pan position of the dry signal - so they're 'behind' each mono panned track. i've never tried this with reverb so it might not work but it's helped me before when tweaking delay tracks. the eq idea sounds good - perhaps back up on the 'q' a bit. get it nice and tidy, then you can smudge it to fuck later.

good luck!

― john clarkson, Thursday, 27 October 2005 18:51 (nineteen years ago)

p.s. 4 track cassette tape sat is great!!

― john again, Thursday, 27 October 2005 18:54 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, the gain and saturation on my 4-track are exactly what I want from digital. I have one good tape-saturation effect on the computer that helps, but I'm starting to wonder if it might even be worth recording every track to tape, dumping them back to digital, and then re-assembling them; it'd be time-consuming and more lo-fi, but it might even be worth it for warmth.

It just occurred to me that my old copy of Cakewalk has some DirectX room-modeling plug-ins that my old computer couldn't run but my new one should be able to -- design your own room, choose wall materials, place instruments and mics, etc.

― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 27 October 2005 19:00 (nineteen years ago)

one year passes...

Let's talk about reverb some more.

Last night I realized the default reverb module that ships with Ableton kind of sucks. Apple's free Audio Unit reverbs seem like they're tons better but I haven't tried them out much yet in production.

What's the real difference between good reverb and brittle, chilly sounding bullshit? How do it work? Why do I care?

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 12 April 2007 14:46 (eighteen years ago)

Just roll off some of the bass on the verb - actually all of it. Problem solved.

― Lynskey, Saturday, 14 April 2007 16:19 (eighteen years ago)

lowpass too. my reverbs are all HP to 100 and LP to 8000

― electricsound, Sunday, 15 April 2007 07:30 (eighteen years ago)

Sometimes a bright reverb is nice, though.

And don't forget about pre-delay.

― St3ve Go1db3rg, Sunday, 15 April 2007 17:15 (eighteen years ago)

well yeah but that's not all the problem here. I guess part of it is the pitch variance in the reflection.

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:48 (eighteen years ago)

Is there a setting for "room surfaces"?

― John Justen, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 18:08 (eighteen years ago)

no there's a "global" setting for "economy" "comfort" or "first class" that seems to have the most effect on the overall density of the reflection and diffusion

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 20:17 (eighteen years ago)

yuck. Yeah, just use something else I guess.

― John Justen, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 21:25 (eighteen years ago)

haha between starting this thread though and now I actually learned a boatload about controlling it. it helps to dial down reflect/diffusion to 0 whenever you're working on the other

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:16 (eighteen years ago)

and once I upgrade to 6, whenever that happens, it'll probably have even more doohickey power

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:16 (eighteen years ago)

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