ladies in their late 30s (or older) come together to talk about how the whole process or experience of dating has changed for us over the years

i guess it depends on how you define fun? And what type of smart?

I joke with friends that i might go to alumni mixers for my college and schools in its "league" - and one of my friends who is in her early 50s (recently got out of 20 year marriage) said she tried this and guys thought that her "weird bohemianism" was appealing, but she thought most of these guys were pretty boring.

I've never had a good idea of what I didn't want, I've always been ready to see every person I got involved with as a potential longer-term investment, and I've never broken a rel'ship off when I realized it wasn't working for ME, I've always tried to make it "work" for the other person as much as possible. (I have been v picky about who I got involved with or developed feelings for in the first place -- I am not a casual dater.)

I don't know why I'm broken this way. I treat my friends and colleagues and everyone else in the world by a whole different and much fairer set of standards; it's just in romantic relationships that I give up all agency w/r/t the outcome of the partnership.

hmmm - i'm kinda the opposite - i don't see much of a difference between relationships w/friends vs. romantic ones

Is that "broken"? Oh, I don't think it sounds so broken if you take care and are very picky with who you choose to get involved with in the first place. It shows commitment which is supposed to be a good thing.

I think it's just the way that women are trained to be, from day one, self sacrificing and always thinking about the other person and what their needs are rather than our own own, because we're just so *good* and so *caring*, you know, like women are supposed to be and trained to be from the moment we're old enough to realise we're female. Argh. Must stop, am sounding like a 70s consciousness raising exercise again.

I only learned what I *didn't* want from bad experiences. And I mean things like "must not push a full shelf of 1000 CDs over on me when I am on the verge of figuring out one of his carefully constructed lies" which I really don't think is too much to ask. Maybe.

Anyway, I have some email to read on OKC and must try not to work myself up into a bundle of annoyance before I do. This is supposed to be fun, right?

i think i was poorly trained as woman tbh

Yeah but being choosy doesn't mean that it'll be the RIGHT choice! It just means that some guy got under my radar and made a good show of being up for the challenge of exclusive dating at the same time that I was and we had at least a superficial attraction and took it way too seriously.

true - you can be choosy - and always choose assholes

You're lucky, then. (And I kinda mean it in the "one is born female but becomes a woman" type sense) x-post to sarahel.

I dunno. I'm tired and cranky and I've just read this dude's email response which I've been waiting for, for days, and my feeling is just a bit "meh, we're not really connecting, are we?" I think whenever I try to communicate with anyone on any deep level, it only ends up generating more misunderstanding so I should just shut up and go away.

Damn, where is that 85% cocoa chocolate I bought for emergencies? may need it.

i think i was poorly trained as woman tbh

^ cosign

I married the man who was my first serious relationship. He was the second person I ever dated, in fact. And no, I am not happy about this--if I had my life to live over again, I would have met him at 25 or 30 instead of at 22.

ARGH some COW who lives in my flat bought 70% chocolate and not 85%!

I hates her!

I tried to be open and not have a "type" and give people a fair chance if I felt something...I just don't "feel something" very often. Anyway.

My problem hasn't been consistently choosing assholes, it has been not valuing myself highly enough to get the hell out of anything, ever, by my own choice. I wait for them to dump me every time. Sometimes it's because I haven't put the energy into visualizing what would come next, and sometimes it's been because I feel too bad to tell another person that in my view, they're hopeless.

xp - Christine - i was totally "planning" to marry my 2nd bf - we started dating when i was 20 - when we broke up, because i wanted to date my best friend, which ended up being the most heart-breaking break up (worse than my recent one, actually) - i felt remorse for a while. But now i feel really glad that i didn't end up with him, because i had a feeling at the time that we'd end up being very different people, and i was totally correct.

It's really hard to leave a relationship, even if it's not working for you.

I mean, my last two proper full long term relationships, both of them I tried to end, with a clean break, I'm not getting what I need out of this, the end, and it just got messy and horrible anyway because, I dunno, I wasn't strong enough to handle giving up on my lovely dream of how great that relationship could have been if he would just have put a little more work into it - but honestly, you can't think like that. It just drags things out and makes them messy and you don't even have the satisfaction of saying "but at least I dumped them" when it drags on so long they start fucking someone else.

I think I just don't feel sparks at all any more. Or maybe I only feel them for people who don't feel it for me and I can't be with. I don't think I'd even recognise a spark any more. Or maybe I deep down think so hard that I don't deserve to be in another relationship that I'd be blind to one if I felt one.

though if they start fucking someone else, at least you don't have to be the asshole

but maybe that's just me - i was always the asshole in my last relationship and my ex-bf played the suffering, put-upon partner to the hilt - so when he cheated on me and we broke up, it was very strange, because it was a total role reversal.

Only if you'd already made yourself the asshole in so many ways.

x-post ha.

Argh I kinda don't want to talk about breakups any more because I'm trying to be positive and think about the good and fun things about dating (please? anyone? are there any?) and I've spent five years brooding and feeling broken and I kinda wanna pick up and go on.

good and fun things:

getting to know new people
having the opportunity to tell jokes and stories to a fresh audience
figuring stuff out about yourself and your likes/interests even when you think you know yourself completely

Well, one of the things I've figured out is that I don't actually *like* meeting new people, ha ha. Um.

Realising as I'm telling these jokes and stories to a fresh audience that I don't even really find them witty or amusing any more. That they've just calcified into things I say because I always say them.

Argh it's just so depressing, realising I have even fewer interests than I thought I had. And I am just an irritating combative person who always rubs people the wrong way with her sheer contrariness. Bah.

I'm going to give up trying to be positive and just think how nice it'd be to have some sex for a change.

well, if it's just about getting laid, then you don't have to be that choosy - or choosy in a different way?

maybe i'm too young for this thread ...

oh and totally off-topic for this thread, but on-topic of discussing stuff with you, K. I totally know what you mean about that Suede song "Trash" and dancing around - "Film Star" is pretty awesome for that, too

Nah, you're fine for this thread, I'm just too cynical for mine own life. ;-)

I tend to be even *more* choosey with regards to casual sex so I don't even have that to fall back on.

(OH JUST SHUT UP KAREN D. AND GO READ A BOOK OR SOMETHING YOU ARE ONLY MAKING YOURSELF MISERABLE.)

is it out of fear?

i mean, this may sound totally hackneyed, but - if you feel you are a certain "type" of person, someone that does this or says this, and doesn't do that or say that, and that isn't working out for you (anymore), then you can change. I think that's one of the great things about getting older - because so much of that (and maybe it's just me) is related to how i'm perceived by others, or my self-image in relation to how i perceive others.

There were years in my late 20s and early 30s when it wasn't uncommon for me not to have so much as a DATE in 12 months or more, not to mention any kind of sex or basically any human touch (except like friend hugs obv). Sometimes I felt like I would just stop existing one day, out of emotional starvation.

I remind myself of those times whenever I feel like packing an overnight bag and calling the first 6 people in my cell phone.

i am not a lady, but i just want to say that i hate dating wmen my own age and much prefer dating women in their thirties .
that is all.

Kate, have you tried dating someone who's the complete opposite of the type you're looking for?

Like Laurel, I had a really long period when I didn't have any kind of a relationship with a man at all, from 30-35. Before that, I'd never dated- it was either a full-blown relationship or it wasn't (uk style). I've only dated since coming to the US. Pros: relaxed way of testing the waters. Huge con: having to have the excruciating exclusivity conversation.

I may still be in my 5-year period of celibacy, or at least, trying to dig my way out, as I do every autumn when I get some hormonal surge and I think I might as well put in the appearances of pretending to do something about it.

I guess the main thing to remember is that I hated dating and relationship type stuf when I was young, I still dislike it now, that hasn't changed at all, so it's kind of a red herring to say "ooh, it's harder now because I'm older" (it may well be, but that doesn't mean it was ever a piece of cake, or pleasant in any way."

I should, however, probably try to avoid responding to any emails when I'm in a very very bad mood. This may give the impression that I'm not interested, but I think being seen as aloof is probably better than accidentally biting someone's head off.

I should, however, probably try to avoid responding to any emails when I'm in a very very bad mood. This may give the impression that I'm not interested, but I think being seen as aloof is probably better than accidentally biting someone's head off.

this is the kind of thing that annoys me to no end - the whole - "you should do this, but not this, unless you want to be perceived as whatever" game. i really don't have the patience for it, especially "rules" type advice - like women should be more aloof.

to be clear - i'm not annoyed by K's post - it reminded me of something else that annoys me - you're fine, K!

Nah, it's cool. I just know from experience with my actual friends that if I respond to an email in the wrong mood, that I can seriously do some damage - and that's to people I *like* and know well - so I'm not going to do that to a complete stranger.

But in continuation of OKC thread, I did actually write Pye Guy, trying to be quite playful about it, and he wrote back and seems really really good actually. So I just proved myself wrong.

awesome!

the man store called, they still have some of these left:

http://students.cup.edu/liv9237/george.jpg

Survey of ladies on this thread: shall we have a "no boys allowed in the room" policy on this thread or no?

I tend towards thinking no, but I find "comedy" interruptions kind of a downer.

What say you?

we should at least allow ian to continue posting here

sorry, i do have a serious question tho. do women see having an attractive/successful partner as a "status" thing as they get older? like, you're embarrassed around your friends if you're not dating "a quality guy"?

attractive and successful are contextual

TBH, it's nothing to do with *status* at all, and this "embarrassment around your friends" thing reeks of projection to me.

However, at my age, I have come to think you know what? *I* have my shit reasonably together. I think that any potential partner of mine should have *their* shit reasonably together. "Having shit together" doesn't mean successful, it means being able to take care of yourself on basic levels.

That's not about status. That's about not wanting to play "mummy" to someone who is presumably in their late 30s or early 40s themselves.

i was gonna post about this yesterday but, one of the differences between dating in my 20s and doing so now is that i no longer romanticize assholes or guys with sociopathic tendencies.

if a guy tries to play the "it's me or your friends, and your friends all suck" game with me, i am so outta there.

OMG yes. In fact, this was an early warning sign in my horrible abusive relationship that I totally ignored. Now it is really urgent & key.

which brings me to the following issue - as you age, the men in the dating pool that are your age in that range, - well, there tend to be a larger percentage of guys that are "single for a reason" -

yeah you have the totally awesome guys that are temporarily single - have had recent break-ups/divorces
you have the relationship-retarded - who have finally gotten around to maturing/being at a point where they can have a healthy relationship
and you have the single for a reason guys - whether they be sociopaths, assholes, have untreated mental illness, have mommy issues ... there are a lot of "reasons" - but it is disheartening feeling that maybe you are the female version of one of them, or that they are "what is left" at your age

what's a good litmus test to tell if i'm relationship-retarted or a sociopath?

umm, replace "i'm" with "my friend is"

ahem

Ha ha yeah, I don't know if that's a test I'd be willing to take.

But there's probably a test for it on OKC.

I'm quite sure I'd fail it but still have managed to convince myself there might be someone with a reasonable...*fit* for me.

It's always disheartening when you meet/know of men you kinda think "you SHOULD be single for a reason" and discover they have a partner. Well, disheartening in the sense of "if you can find someone to put up with you, why can't I find someone to put up with me?" but then I start attempting to date again and remember it's because *I* can't put up with them so my whinging is unjustified.

But then again, yesterday I found out the real reason I am a terrible horrible person is because I cannot stand Pulp! Who knew?

oh there are plenty of people who can't stand Pulp - my ex-bf for one

That where it all went bad.

OK, sorry but no. The one thing I'm really not gonna have on this thread is a Kenan derailment.

Sorry feller, but them's the breaks. This thread is for ladies. If you want a thread about dating, start your own.

dear admin,

i thought kenan's post about my ex-bf was funny.

That's fine, but you have about 173,000 other threads where you can talk about your ex-bf with him. I feel really uncomfortable talking about any kind of deep relationship type stuff on a thread where I think that Kenan is about to swoop in at any moment with some comment, because he has a history of being really insensitive about this kind of stuff. Now I'm sorry if you think that's unfair, but this is my thread and I'd really like to feel comfortable on it.

(I already kinda think this thread might have been a mistake, but whatevs)

fair enough - on to the question raised about the poster's friend -

relationship-retarded - generally an issue of emotional maturity, can also be an issue of workaholicism, or just focus on the guy's career or hobbies, where a relationship would feel like a long distance thing, even if you lived together

sociopath - abusive or potentially abusive

i, too, thought i would use this thread but then decided it might not be the best idea to share too much with the potential joke interjections that will likely come about. i actually have typed three different very lengthy responses to this thread over the last few days and then deleted them before submitting.

it was therapeutic and i didn't have to deal with getting too personal here.

It makes me really really sad if anyone feels unable to post stuff to this thread for fear of joke interactions, especially since this is ILTMI and that has become the culture here.

But the biggest reason I started this thread here was because I do, for some reason (though ha, I probably shouldn't have brought attention to it) still have the power to make those things go away, or even prevent them from happening. Like, I just really want people to feel *OK* about being able to post on this thread. I recognise that maybe that's not compatible with the threat of censorship, but basically if someone is being mean, abusive, jokey about deep serious personal stuff in that hurtful way, we can stop that, in the hopes that it will encourage other people who are maybe not so comfortable with talking to be more honest, open, expressive, say the stuff that will help them, or help someone else who goes "OMG, I get that too!"

But if you find it helpful to type it out and then not hit submit, I guess that's cool, too.

Good point about the difference between relationship retarded and sociopath.

But I kinda wonder about the much thinner line between "relationship retarded" and "asshole" (and which side I'm on. Clearly the wrong side, now I'm feeling shitty about telling someone to get off the thread.)

you can always unban him, K.

No, coz I really really REALLY don't want him on this thread, and I don't actually care if that makes me an asshole.

you can just ban and delete - like roxy on the no boys allowed in room thread - which was pretty conceptually brilliant imo

Good idea, actually.

actually, would like to apologise for being a dick in this thread. relationships are v hard and the thought of not meeting the right person to spend the rest of your life with is kinda terrifiying and nothing to joke about. soz.

Levity is nothing to apologize for.

if a guy tries to play the "it's me or your friends, and your friends all suck" game with me, i am so outta there.

― sarahel

OMG yes. In fact, this was an early warning sign in my horrible abusive relationship that I totally ignored.

"I hate your friends and only want you to be with me" is pretty classic emotional abuse. The sign I personally always had trouble paying attention to was when none of my friends could stand the person I was dating.

just wanted to pop in here and say that it seems laurel's attitudes toward relationships mirror mine, to a large extent. that is all.

xp - yeah, i think i'm a lot less picky about stuff like appearance and must like certain bands, movies, artists, food, books - or like them for the same reasons that i like them than i was in my 20s - and more picky about whether the potential suitor would get along with my friends

Oh, so many relationships built on shared petty grievances.

If this thread is going to be antagonistic towards male contributions I think I'll respectfully stay at a distance - I wanted men's side of the story, so I'm a bit disappointed theyve all had their heads bit off :(

Trayce - K banned Kenan, and now he is unbanned, so i think the antagonism has passed.

Ah cool :) I miss things with this time zone gahrr.

Hang on, no, I did not unban Kenan. Some other mod decided to sneak in here while I was asleep and let him back in.

I have explained why I banned him - and someone, without saying anything, decided to overrule that decision. That seriously does not make me feel very comfortable about continuing this thread. (No one overruled Roxy's decisions about removing posts or banning males from the No Boys Allowed In The Room thread - this is just someone making arbitrary decisions because it was me involved.)

On those grounds, I am just going to lock this thread. If someone else wants to start another thread about dating, then you are welcome to. I want no part in this any more.

I am going to attempt to explain this decision, even though it will probably only contribute to the general "OMG, Kate is INSANE" consensus rather than detract from it.

It's fairly well known, the phenomenon whereby survivors of rape or abuse must try to create a "safe place" before they are able to discuss issues of an extremely personal or sexual nature. Establishing personal boundaries is really extra important. I do not think it's unreasonable for someone in that position to ask for a thread where their boundaries are respected, where they won't be unnecessarily exposed to triggers and where they will not have their experiences held up for insensitive mockery by someone playing for cheap laughs.

Kenan has repeatedly shown this kind of insensitivity, for example, when joking about pissing in my face when I was talking about extreme depression and anxiety. (Not an isolated incident, I might add.) He's shown cavalier disrespect for other people's boundaries, for example, coming back to the thread when he's been asked to stay off.

I understand, on ILX, the need to balance the rights of people like Kenan to have the ability to go in and make their marks on whatever thread they choose, with the needs of someone like me, who needs a mockery-free zone in order to discuss deeply personal issues.

My goal on this thread was not to exclude all men (though it was to focus on women's experiences, rather than men's) but to try to cut down on the anxiety-inducing and silencing effects that some people's insensitivity and mockery have on people that are not so outspoken.

I did not think it unreasonable to ask for one thread where my needs are respected, as opposed to the thousands of threads where Kenan's rights are upheld over my needs. But apparently, some moderator decided that it was.

Since that's the case, I close the thread, since I never would have placed it on this forum *unless* I had thought I would be allowed to enforce my needs.