Porn & free speech

I am most defs 'yay free speech' person, but my thoughts about it have certainly softened over the years. Only in regards to porn.

I mean a lot of 'free speech' wars, or at least the famous ones in America, are about pornography or "obscenity." Obscenity in art, ie Mapplethorpe controversy, whatevs. That's overreacting, saying they should be hidden or censored or whatever.

But porn, I can't defend the gonzo stuff at all. I mean I used to be...not in favor of it, but in favor of protecting it as I believed v strongly in the slippery slope argument. I still do, but I can't defend the existence of this stuff.

Like Max Hardcore got busted a wile ago and I have to say I was pretty happy. Stuff like that, I think it's stuff no one would ever have thought of doing if they hadn't witnessed it in a movie first. I mean, someone would say it in a joke gross-out contest, but not actually ever think to do it. But it seems like a doable, or maybe even desirable thing, to some if they've seen it. And I doubt most of the time most of the partners would truly consent to doing this stuff.

I am pretty sure most people wld probably draw the line at child porn as indefensible, but where does everyone else? Should porn be protected as part of free speech? If so, to what extent and why?

I guess that as long there's a demand for this stuff, censoring it isn't gonna solve much, because the base values it panders to aren't gonna magically disappear with banning porn. I'd love to see more porn that's based more egalitarian gender values, but unfortunately the chauvinist/sexist variations seem to dominate the market. Maybe it's even so that porn works as a sort of dirty unconscious for many men who feel that their ages-old male privileges are under threat by feminism/egalitarianism; it's not socially acceptable anymore to call women whores and objectify them in real life, so only in the fantasy world of porn can still they process these feelings. (Maybe that's still better than letting those feelings surface in real-life situations, as used to be in the past?) Basically I think that only a more thorough change in gender relationships will, in the long run, change the values reflected by porn, and banning it would only offer a short-term solution.

However, I do feel a lot of people use porn in a way that's not wholly uncritical. They can see the exaggerated fantasy nature of it and take pleasure out of it without subscribing to its worldview. This is why a lot of straight couples and girls can still get kicks out sexist porn. Of course the problem is that some guys (and maybe some girls too) do actually assume ideas on sexuality and gender uncritically from porn, but I like I said I don't really think censorship will ultimately solve these issues.

"as it used to be in the past"

Most non-fundie types who are opposed to porn aren't in favor of outlawing it. You can debate all day on whether it's "good", but this is the bottom line.

I don't buy into anyone limiting free speech, really. I farnkly think that some of the enlightened 'hate speech' laws of Europe actually backfire in a way, making the convicted into martyrs of a sort and absolving the general public of its constant duty to engage and self-police. Plus, porn is about fantasy and desire related to one of our strongest urges - it's better not to block that stuff up.

Stuff like that, I think it's stuff no one would ever have thought of doing if they hadn't witnessed it in a movie first.

I highly doubt this. If there is a verb in Latin for skullfucking, I think it's safe to assume people have been perverts for a long time.

All that offends in porn, really, is power relations of which one does not approve, but that is precisely the spice of some people's sex lives.

tuomas pretty otm

Plus, porn is about fantasy and desire related to one of our strongest urges - it's better not to block that stuff up.

this is basically bullshit

Porn is the chicken, free speech is the egg?

Not really, but porn DOES predate the modern world.
I think, Abbott, you say "I can't defend this stuff." But - you don't have to. You are trying to defend it to yourself. If you find it objectionable and /or abhorrent, well - that's you! That influences how you might vote, or be an activist for or against porn.

But, y'know, porn is not some issue that anyone has to have an opinion on it. I think the pressure to be on one side or the other is the problem. Everyone likes porn, to a certain degree. Most people won't admit it.

It's here. Deal with it.( Not you, but in general) The best thing to do is to make sure nobody is victimized, and to make sure the employees of this industry have access to benefits like healthcare, insurance, guaranteed wages, etc.

OK - that's idiotic - I'm thinking NOT about unregulated internet porn. Sorry! I did a thesis on porn five years ago and still talk from that sex positive model. But that's ancient history.

it's not socially acceptable anymore to call women whores and objectify them in real life, so only in the fantasy world of porn can still they process these feelings

I can dig what yr saying, but it's a fantasy world for the viewer. Those are real flesh and blood humans doing this shit. And you can argue it was their choice, and I would largely agree, but you should see the suits from actresses up against Max Hardcore. Brutal shit that was forced on them, in front of camera, without forewarning, and not IMO a situation you could really escape once it started were you said young lady.

I don't mind that sexist porn exists (or at least sexist in language, context and cinematography), and I understand that there's always been such & c. I defs don't mind that porn exists. An outlet for the lonely, an outlet for a lot of people, a fun thing to have in life, and many people are pretty happy to make it (tho that is a complicated issue).

The best thing to do is to make sure nobody is victimized, and to make sure the employees of this industry have access to benefits like healthcare, insurance, guaranteed wages, etc.

This I defs agree with and back 100 percent.

I know the slippery slope argument very well BUT seriously I would be totally happy if it were not allowed for people to make movies where women's heads were shoved down on cocks until they vomited, or have their eyes pissed on until their contacts and false eyelashes fell off. THAT is the kind of porn I am talking about when I say their should be a limit to this stuff, and a framework! And I DO seriously think a lot fewer people would want to perform these acts, which I genuinely think are inhuman and cruel and degrading, if their imaginations weren't kindled by seeing a reality of it. That's it. Just that stuff, nothing else. I mean, seriously, is someone going to come up here and defend child porn? It's like the same thing in my mind.

I think someone should write a bio of Max Hardcore. He always strikes me as someone who had a really pathetic adolescence.

there was that David Foster Wallace essay

"Big Red Son"

!!!

I can dig what yr saying, but it's a fantasy world for the viewer. Those are real flesh and blood humans doing this shit. And you can argue it was their choice, and I would largely agree, but you should see the suits from actresses up against Max Hardcore. Brutal shit that was forced on them, in front of camera, without forewarning, and not IMO a situation you could really escape once it started were you said young lady.

That's a bit different issue than censorship though. Of course I agree that porn should made so that no one involved is forced (psychologically or physically) to do anything they don't want to do, but I don't think censorship is the way to assure this. Even in times when porn was very much censored and strictly underground there were women willing to act in it, and I think that when porn becomes more accepted and more mainstream it should also beceome easier to control the working conditions of porn professionals. Even this court case you mention could be seen as an example of that: I don't think a 1930s porn actress in a similar situation would have even dared to take her case to court, let alone win it.

I think the situation with porn actresses is kinda parallel to prostitutes... It can be a degrading profession, and I hope no one ever gets into that situation because they have no alternative, but making these things illegal or pushing them to the underground has never managed to make them disappear. What it does do, though, is make it more difficult to assert any public control on the working conditions of the people in these professions. I think it's more sensible to accept that these professions do exist and are not likely to disappear in the immediate future, and try to make them less socially stigmatized so that they could be seen simply as work some people do, and that the same laws and regulations should apply for them as for any other work.

i probably mentioned this before somewhere but a girl i dated for several months ended up becoming a porn actress almost immediately after we stopped seeing one another. she said she only wanted to do one and one turned into her being on the cover of adult video news a couple months later. the last time i saw her IRL she talked about what a dumb slut she was. she made a shitload of money and blew it all. eventually she left the business and now she's a born-again christian single mother in texas, living near her family. one extreme to the other. i'm still not sure why she fell into it but everything she told me about the business sounded pretty horrific and demeaning.

There's a Latin verb for skullfucking?

it all depends on whether you define 'demeaning' or 'being taken advantage of' merely as 'something i wouldn't do at that rate of pay', in which case you can add 'working at mcdonalds' as something that should be censored.

If you're talking about irrumator that's technically face-fucking, not skull-fucking. But I'm not as up on my Latin smut as I used to be...

(I'm sure Louis will be along shortly to pedantically "fact check" this)

Irrumation is indeed the right word, 13-year-olds acne & priests joek...

darraghmac is OTM so often.

isn't it funny, ha ha, that this thread went straight to anecdotal information? "I dated a girl, I once watched something with a guy i was dating, here's the latest news about it..."

It's PORN! If you aren't watching it to get off, you should not watch it. It's people fucking. Lot's of really good looking people fucking.

That's the stuff behind the counter at your local convenience store/video store.
Pedophiles don't hang out at stores that are sex positive , that have sex toys. Pedophiles don't go to peep shows. Pedophiles are generally family members. I think the statistic is about 86 percent pedophilia being "performed" within the family.

Porn does not lead to rape, sexual abuse, or homosexuality.

but internet porn is different.

And I DO seriously think a lot fewer people would want to perform these acts, which I genuinely think are inhuman and cruel and degrading, if their imaginations weren't kindled by seeing a reality of it. That's it. Just that stuff, nothing else. I mean, seriously, is someone going to come up here and defend child porn? It's like the same thing in my mind.

― Abbott, Friday, October 3, 2008 3:08 PM (1 week ago) Bookmark

that's retarded. you're retarded.

^^^ debate society president

people are generally family members, i'd say

The nastiest criminal acts generally happen with people who are generally family members, or at leastr known to each other I'd say.

Porn does not lead to rape, sexual abuse, or homosexuality.

I don't think that was Abbott's point, rather than that porn actresses are often mistreated, and that some guys might actually pick up misogynic fantasies and practices from porn. I'm not sure how common that actually is, but I'm certain that it happens.

Though of course it's a question of chicken and egg: does porn merely reflect misogyny that already exists in our societies, or does it also help to produce that misogyny? At least you can't deny that to a certain degree it helps reproduce sexism and misogyny. I don't think porn, as it is, is really unproblematic from a gender point of view; I can vision a more egalitarian, unproblematic form of porn, but that doesn't seem to be what the mainstream porn industry today wants to produce. But like I said upthread, I don't think censorship is ultimately gonna solve anything either. What I think is needed is more straightforward and critical discussion on porn, not just a blanket condemnation or an uncritical acceptance of all of it.

Look, most dudes that watch this kind of porn regularly are less likely to have girlfriends/wives than dudes that don't.

Just sayin'.

but why is abbot watching this shit is what i want to know

RESEARCH RESEARCH RESEARCH

(NSFW) J0hnD just linked to this over at LPTJ: http://reversecowgirlblog.blogspot.com/2008/10/to-max.html

jeez

part 2 http://reversecowgirlblog.blogspot.com/2008/10/more-on-max.html

sending someone to jail because they grossed you out is some seriously arrogant small minded shit - if anything more substantial than a viewers feelings has been harmed than the law can deal w/that on its own terms - good conversation all around tho

Though of course it's a question of chicken and egg: does porn merely reflect misogyny that already exists in our societies, or does it also help to produce that misogyny? At least you can't deny that to a certain degree it helps reproduce sexism and misogyny. I don't think porn, as it is, is really unproblematic from a gender point of view; I can vision a more egalitarian, unproblematic form of porn, but that doesn't seem to be what the mainstream porn industry today wants to produce. But like I said upthread, I don't think censorship is ultimately gonna solve anything either. What I think is needed is more straightforward and critical discussion on porn, not just a blanket condemnation or an uncritical acceptance of all of it.

This is basically exactly what I was trying to say!

I have no idea if there's a solution, if there should be one, etc. Save to say I find it revolting at best (which yes I know law opinions etc everything said above). I certainly don't think the bulk of it is terrible at all, but some of it is so volatile that it seems quite dangerous to me. Also it pisses me the fuck off (I think it is fair to express this opinion).

I should note NB I had a horrible experience happen to me that involved acts of this nature by a guy of the raincoat crowd I know watches & adores this shit, and I think some of the shit he pulled wouldn't have been as left-field were it not presented as so commonplace and acceptable. Which is why I started this thredd.

Some don't even view it as a problem (it seems like the majority of the ~20 people here do not), and that's fine. I'm not trying to condemn anyone here. Posting here.

i agree with Abbott, i.e. conning women into performing degrading acts that they in no way consented to before hand is vile! profiting from it is even worse. i guess that makes me retarded too, huh. whatever.

Abbott - that must have been horrible, and it's incredible for you to share that experience with us. I'm so sorry that you had to survive that.

BUT- (you knew I was going to have a but)- There are many studies about pedophilia, rape, sexual abuse - and there is nothing that directly links porn to any of those situations.

I mean, i am not defending pedophiles who are trading images of sexually compromised children -male and female - over the internet. But that's a whole different argument, and one we have to have soon. Where does the freedom of the internet end?

Statistically, you will be raped, sexually assaulted, abused ... by someone you know. That includes bad uncles. And fathers.
Whether or not porn was involved doesn't -or shouldn't - have any bearing on the prosecution of the crime.

It's a slippery slope, and I'm glad you can articulate your feelings so clearly.
I can't.
For me, Porn is an industry as much as its a...gas station. But it's not regulated.
If we legalized pot and prostitution our economic worries would be solved in about six months - sin taxes drive the capitalist economy. Massachusetts actually has a referundum on the ballot to decriminalize small amounts of marijuana. I love my state!

So...porn. You feel conflicted about it. I think you have to give context to how you feel about it from the negative things you experienced. And then try to take a sex positive outlook.

I also worked with lots of mentally ill criminals, and one guy who was a level three offender was truly a threat.
But another guy had consensual sex with a 15 year old girl(his girlfriend) when he was nineteen. But her parents made sure to break up the relationship by getting him arrested. Which put him in jail as a sexual predator.

They just got married. He's a great guy., and I think they will be great together.
He has to register as a sex offender for the next ten years. level three - danger to youth. Because he had sex with his girlfriend, now his wife.
So, I don't know...I'm always torn up about how we legislate sex. here in the U.S. And maybe it's a leap from sex to prosecution - but not a very big leap at all,and I feel sick thinking about it.

I should go to bed - xoxoxoxo

sending someone to jail because they grossed you out is some seriously arrogant small minded shit

otmmmmm

That's not what happened though.

There are many studies about pedophilia, rape, sexual abuse - and there is nothing that directly links porn to any of those situations.

Like I already said upthread, this is not the point Abbott or me or anyone was making here. Few people here probably think porn turns people into rapists, but I'm concerned about how porn works with sexism on a more general level. Even if porn doesn't really produce sexism, I think it's pretty obvious that at the moment it's one of the things that work to reproduce sexism, and one of the most blatant also.

it sure works as a reinforcing agent among frat boys.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2008/11/06/violetblue.DTL

sending someone to jail because they grossed you out is some seriously arrogant small minded shit - if anything more substantial than a viewers feelings has been harmed than the law can deal w/that on its own terms

OTFM.

good thread. i just have a few thoughts which may be controversial or whatever, but i assure you my intent is not to troll.

1. i think the chicken vs. egg argument is irrelevant because what happens is that degenerates like max hardcore produce material for other degenerates, which forms a feedback loop which will get more and more extreme until something stops it. i have no doubt in my mind that max hardcore would be making and selling kid porn and/or snuff if he could get away with it. this stuff isn't BDSM (which i am no fan of, but wholly support) - it is dark, cruel, twisted, abuse-porn.

2. i don't get bent out of shape about the porn censorship issue because porn ill always exist in some form, and every society will have a decency threshold. if in 50 years we live in a theocratic dictatorship, porn might be back to drawings of women in long dresses with a little ankle showing, and it will serve exactly the same purpose and function as some gang bang world record vid does now.

right now our hard decency line seems to be this stuff, or maybe a tad bit beyond, but there is definitely a you're-gonna-get-your-ass-hauled-to-jail-for-distributing-it-limit in our society right now, and there always will be. i mean the decency line is totally subjective to a society's standards.

i don't believe that there is a bottom or top to porn in terms of what the content does for the viewer. how much of the body and how many varieties of sexual activities pornographers choose to show may change over time, but i think what people desire to see tends to change with it.

i am pretty much against anti-porn feminism but that sf chronicle article is kind of childish

this is one of those arguments where i dont want to be on any side

but now more than ever we need your guidance Uncle Shavedlongcock

Violet Blue is a professional sex nerd/troll, harbl.

oh ok i didn't know that!

"Free Max Hardcore"
http://blogs.citypages.com/pscholtes/2008/10/free_max_hardco.php

Some followup:
http://blogs.citypages.com/pscholtes/2008/11/charge_max_hard.php

free max hardco

charge max hard

its a case of mistaken identity!

Porn & free speech

http://pics.cheggit.nl/pics/2008/10/05/66-1FreeMax.gif

:(

you sad trolling

child porn is treated the way it is under the law because it victimizes those who have limited capacity to defend themselves and the law understands that. laws already exist (as in the case we see here regarding max hardcore) to address the concern of adults being raped and/or contractual agreements being violated (or bad-faith contracts in the first place providing inadequate protections) - this is the way to tackle this.

Freedom of expression has nothing to do with it imo.

the sick imperfection here is in issues that resemble child porn, e.g. people who have no means to protect themselves pre facto being abused, whether in countries that have some laws on the books but no effective means of enforcement (the US is one) or countries that simply don't have really applicable laws at all and assume consent wherever money changes hands - it seems to me that the most straightforward way to deal with this is by legalizing and regulating sex work, but that requires far more of an admission than most representative democracies seem willing to make (not to even mention less progressive forms of government).

apologies if I just made up "pre facto" there