When good films go bad

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The inspiration to start this thread came from a film I just finished watching.

You know how sometimes you start watching a movie and it's really interesting -- you're really enjoying it -- the story, the dialog, the acting, etc. But then, suddenly (or perhaps slowly) it unravels and becomes a huge mess, a waste of your time, and you're left at the end thinking......huh?

Case in point -- Consenting Adults 1992, Alan Pakula. Started out really well -- good early performance by Kevin Spacey. Interesting concept, with possibilities of becoming a tense emotional/moral drama. But then, it turns into a bad Hitchcock-wannabe, and even that fails miserably. Anything intelligent is gone, and I'm left watching the most ridiculous "innocent-man-framed" story. Characters become shallow, plot points get dumber and dumber, credibility out the window. Gee....

So, what other films can be classified as such?

BabyBuddha (BabyBuddha), Saturday, 21 February 2004 05:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Good post...

The movie "Spider" this this to me. I was really looking forward to watching it, and I was really engaged with the first half of the film--this strange, nearly mute creature reacting with a harsh world. and i commented to my girlfriend about how refreshing it was to watch a film like this that didn't resort to backstory and flashbacks because they felt this overarching need to EXPLAIN why he's the way he is.

Then it happens. The cheesy flashbacks, the murdered mother, the "wild strawberries" rip-off where the grown man is watching his childhood--completely ruined the movie for me.

"julian donkey-boy" did kind of a similar thing with the whole sister getting pregnant stuff, but what i'm glad it DIDN'T do is resort to cheesy flashbacks about the mother who died & is seemingly responsible for the breakdown of the family.

jay blanchard (jay blanchard), Saturday, 21 February 2004 15:17 (twenty-two years ago)

The flashbacks in Spider are what the movie is about. S;pider's past is what informs everything he does and says. Criticizing the film on tose grounds is like bashing Jaws for having a shark in it.

latebloomer (latebloomer), Saturday, 21 February 2004 18:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Misspelled words:
those
Spider's

latebloomer (latebloomer), Saturday, 21 February 2004 18:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Running On Karma (2003) - The Andy Lau / Johnny To flick started out as this really dark, almost neo-noir like thriller and after about half an hour just completely lost the plot, and in came the cheese factor so typical in HK films of late.

Mil, Saturday, 21 February 2004 23:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Adaptation...

Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Saturday, 21 February 2004 23:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Lost Highway - in Lynch terms it started as Eraserhead and turned into Wild At Heart halfway through. I'm not what you would call a fan of Wild At Heart, although I guess plenty of people would disagree with me on this one.

udu wudu (udu wudu), Sunday, 22 February 2004 02:15 (twenty-two years ago)

no, that's not what "the film's all about" at all--the film is about the character known as spider--the film is named after him. his past doesn't define him, the person he his now is what defines him. there are plenty of other films (such as julien donkey-boy, which was mentioned) that don't find the need to pander to the audience's curiosity by revealing backstory to "explain" the character. great films leave ambiguous holes that need to be filled in by the viewer--it's how we engage with a work of art. it's why the venus de milo is so interesting; if the arms and legs were there, it would just be another statue. and it's what makes modern art interesting--it doesn't just present a picture that's immediately identifiable. the use of flashbacks and backstory are not what made "spider" a film--they are what detracted from making it a good film.

jay blanchard (jay blanchard), Sunday, 22 February 2004 02:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I think you were bringing unwarranted expectations about what Spider should have been. The vast majority of Spider takes place in the past, so I think it's safe to say that's what the movie's focus was intended to be all along. I also never said the flashbacks made Spider a better movie, just that they are the central story being told in the film, and not just cheesy exposition.

latebloomer (latebloomer), Sunday, 22 February 2004 03:04 (twenty-two years ago)

i simply don't agree with that. i thought they felt forced and detracted from what could have been otherwise an interesting character study.

jay blanchard (jay blanchard), Sunday, 22 February 2004 04:02 (twenty-two years ago)

It's been a while since I've seen the movie, maybe I should watch it again. But I mostly remmber the scenes set in Spider's childhood. They seemed to take up most of the screen time, and seemed to me to be the focus of the film. Most of the present day scenes didn't seem like they would make sense without the "flashback sequences".

latebloomer (latebloomer), Sunday, 22 February 2004 04:09 (twenty-two years ago)


"...and Haley, here is where we really fuck things up" (A.I.)

Ryan McKay (Ryan McKay), Sunday, 22 February 2004 04:37 (twenty-two years ago)

LOL Ryan! Perfect!

BabyBuddha (BabyBuddha), Sunday, 22 February 2004 05:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Three words to Ry and Baby. Eat. My. Ass.

Eric H. (Eric H.), Sunday, 22 February 2004 07:13 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean seriously, the next person who knee-jerk calls out the so not ruinous ending of A.I., I will track them down and throw a goddamned drink in their face and punch it until their blood becomes poisoned with alcohol.

Eric H. (Eric H.), Sunday, 22 February 2004 07:15 (twenty-two years ago)

oh come on, spielberg should have been put on trial for that film--god only knows it could have been a beautiful piece of cinema in kubrick's hands, but Captain Hollywood turned it into nothing more than a glorified E.T. The man has no mind or soul--he's the P.T. Barnum of the film world.

jay blanchard (jay blanchard), Sunday, 22 February 2004 15:17 (twenty-two years ago)

nope, nothing doing. not if one sees the final stretch of the film as the darkest, most nihilistic part.

Eric H. (Eric H.), Sunday, 22 February 2004 18:06 (twenty-two years ago)

To be honest, I thought "Secretary"'s last 15 minutes or so were an abdication; what had hitherto been an edgily entertaining, unorthodox drama became all rather silly, pushing buttons marked 'zany comedy'. I don't essentially object to it becoming a romance as it did, but the whole tone seemed wrong and conveniently adopted. It was the whole unwitting martyrdom/media circus part that really wrecked it for me.

Tom May (Tom May), Sunday, 22 February 2004 19:07 (twenty-two years ago)

A glorified ET? At least ET had a home to go back to. David (the robot boy in AI) didn't, and that's the tragic thing about the film. Even at the end when the robots of the future find him, they can only give him a temporary simulation.

latebloomer (latebloomer), Sunday, 22 February 2004 21:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Jonathan Rosenbaum on that final scene from A.I.:

"It sounds like typical Spielberg goo -- for better and for worse -- and when you're watching the film it feels that way. But the minute you start thinking about it, it's at least as grim as any other future in Kubrick's work. Humankind's final gasp belongs to a fucked-up boy robot with an Oedipus complex who's in bed with his adopted mother and who finally becomes a real boy at the very moment that he seemingly autodestructs -- assuming he vanishes along with her, though if he survives her, it could only be to look back in perpetual longing at their one day together. Real boy or dead robot? Whatever he is, his apotheosis with mommy seems to exhaust his reason for existing. As Richard Pryor once described the death of his father while having sex, "He came and went at the same time." Like the death of 2001's HAL, which might be regarded as David's grandfather, it's the film's most sentimental moment, yet it's questionable whether it involves any real people at all.

jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:04 (twenty-two years ago)

The rest of the review is worth reading, too.

jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Thanks for posting that review excerpt.

latebloomer (latebloomer), Monday, 23 February 2004 04:17 (twenty-two years ago)

i remember reading that review and thinking rosenbaum was the only person in the world besides me who liked it! of course later i found this wasn't true, and, if i remember correctly, at least four major critics picked it as the movie of the year: rosenbaum, armond white, michael wilmington, and a.o. scott.

white even voted for it in the sight and sound poll!

ryan (ryan), Monday, 23 February 2004 07:11 (twenty-two years ago)

a few more A.I. fans... but we've surely been down this road before, right?

I'm hard-pressed to think of anything, because if a film goes wrong, I'm far less likely to consider the first part good anymore. I guess In the Bedroom is a recent example of something that I was moderately going along with until the last 30 minutes.

Eric H. (Eric H.), Monday, 23 February 2004 07:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Just so you know I think A.I. was a beautifully shot, well acted, engaging movie (a 'beautiful failure'). The schizophrenic juxtaposition of Kubrick and Spielberg's work is thought-provoking, pleasantly disorienting, and on occasions of rare synthesis, sublime (e.g. the scene where David walks through the hall with all the other Davids in boxes - the imagery is classic Kubrick, but our emotional investment would not be so high without Spielberg's buildup).

That review does much to illuminate this "dialectic."

Rosenbaum also more or less sums what it is about the ending I cannot get past:

"The testimonials to humanity given by the future beings are a prime example of Spielberg's dishonesty working hand in hand with his fluidity as a storyteller. Their expression of admiration and even envy for the "genius" of humans leads them to conclude, "Human beings must be the key of existence." This sentiment runs counter to the view of humanity expressed by the remainder of the movie..."

With Duel, Spielberg showed the power of ambiguity and insecurity, concepts which he has rarely allowed in his movies since.

Spielberg just can't leave people (or robots) in the lurch: their children emerge from comas, they evade inevitable genocide, their bizarre experiences with U.F.O.s are verified, they are even saved from eviction by little mechanical alien handymen.

...so I guess I shouldn't be surprised that he couldn't leave David sitting at the bottom of the sea, immersed in his dreams and delusions. Still, the conclusion seems so poor, so trite and manipulative as to be insulting. It is as if Spielberg tries to do for the audience what the aliens try to do for David, fulfilling every senseless desire - emotions as programmed response - then hailing the resultant insipid obsessions. There is a profound depth of cynicism behind this desire to "keep me safe" as a viewer, piling artifice on top of artifice (this time in the form of an essentially fake Monica) then declaring in a hackneyed tone that the sum of all these misconceptions and illusions is reality.

Ryan McKay (Ryan McKay), Monday, 23 February 2004 08:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Wow, Mr. McKay, you pretty much summed it up for me.

jay blanchard (jay blanchard), Monday, 23 February 2004 14:56 (twenty-two years ago)

i thought the future being worship of humans was equally cynical--i mean, if they are looking to US for help, they are really fucked too!

It is as if Spielberg tries to do for the audience what the aliens try to do for David, fulfilling every senseless desire - emotions as programmed response - then hailing the resultant insipid obsessions.

you could read the ending as this, sure, and it is to some extent, but what makes it brilliant is that the dissonance inherent in the set up makes it also a commentary on that kind of ending, it's a sentimental ending ABOUT sentimental endings, our need for them, their spiritual necessity and impossibility in real life.

ryan (ryan), Monday, 23 February 2004 16:32 (twenty-two years ago)

(i'm not even suggesting this is what spielberg was intending--for all i can tell intentionality is impossible to establish in that movie--but it is what i see on the screen)

ryan (ryan), Monday, 23 February 2004 16:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I just posted a 4-Dopio Espresso fueled rant about AI in the dream movie thread.

Not nearly as eloquent as McKay's above, I'm sad to say.

That Rosenbaum really loved this film hit me very hard at the time. He was my mentor, my beacon -- and then this.

BabyBuddha (BabyBuddha), Monday, 23 February 2004 19:32 (twenty-two years ago)

this has zero to do with the quality of the film, but the beings at the end of AI aren't aliens.

latebloomer (latebloomer), Monday, 23 February 2004 19:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Being John Malkovich

Fight Club

Dark City

Those reviews were written years ago, so my English might be a bit rough and my views might've changed a bit (I may have misinterpreted Fight Club's final scene), but the main points still hold.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 08:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Sorry, that Dark City link is wrong, here's the right one.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 10:02 (twenty-two years ago)

"it's a sentimental ending ABOUT sentimental endings, our need for them, their spiritual necessity and impossibility in real life."

in other words, spielberg trying to justify the rest of his manipulative, audience-pleasing dribble he calls films.

i sure has hell don't need a sentimental ending. i need a director to challenge me & surprise me, and especially to not cave in & just give me what i want. it's like spielberg can't exist unless he pleases everyone, and it's the sheer reason why he'll never transcend beyond the point of entertainer into artist. i don't even know why he bothers trying.

jay blanchard (jay blanchard), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 14:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Just curious: Are artists not allowed to be sentimental?

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 17:53 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm personally not sure, at least not in the context of this conversation since I don't see the sentimentality of A.I. (every potentially maudlin moment is balanced with a skeptical take on humanity). And, on top of that, many of the Spielberg movies that are sentimental (Saving Private Ryan, The Color Purple) I greatly dislike.

But, at the same time, I'm not out to put limits on what artists can and cannot express. Leo McCarey makes a damned good case for sentimentality as an artistic quality.

Eric H. (Eric H.), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 18:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Leo McCarey makes a damned good case for sentimentality as an artistic quality.

Where?

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 18:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Duck Soup?

BabyBuddha (BabyBuddha), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 18:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, haha, I read "Leo McCarey" and thought Leo Braudy, the film theorist. Okay, carry on.

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 18:37 (twenty-two years ago)

yes, as long as they own up to the fact. i love woody allen, but i've always considered him to be a sappy entertainer at heart because of his sentimental elements. I think anything post-Romantic age can't get away with sentimentality as an essential part of its form without addressing it in someway. funny, the art world grew out of the Rococo, music grew out of its romantic age after Schubert and Beethoven, yet film never will.

jay blanchard (jay blanchard), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 20:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Make Way for Tomorrow is both tremendously sappy as well as just plain tremendous.

Eric H. (Eric H.), Wednesday, 25 February 2004 01:28 (twenty-two years ago)


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