2013 NLCS: Los Angeles Dodgers vs. St. Louis Cardinals

Okay, that's fair. Tudor and Cox were better that year--Tudor was a lot better--but Andujar was probably perceived as the staff ace that year.

Kershaw's got at least as much of a head start on the HOF as Trout, no?

by JAWS, Kershaw is 211th among starting pitchers, after 6 seasons.

Trout is 117th among CFs, after 2+.

I remember Andujar's meltdown fairly well. Even uglier than last night, set up by Denkinger's missed call the night before. Andujar looked like he was ready to murder someone when he was ejected.

However, after Horton gave up a single to Brett, Herzog immediately replaced him with the volatile Joaquín Andújar, normally a starter but pressed into relief. Andújar allowed an RBI single to Frank White to increase the Royals lead to 10–0 before the Cardinals came completely unglued. With Sundberg at the plate, Andújar twice charged home plate umpire Denkinger to disagree with his strike zone. First, Denkinger called an Andújar pitch a ball. Herzog, who had been berating Denkinger for most of the game, rushed from the dugout to defend Andújar, and was ejected—reportedly after saying to Denkinger, "We wouldn't even be here if you hadn't missed the fucking call last night!" According to Denkinger, he replied "Well if you guys weren't hitting .120 in this World Series, we wouldn't be here." The next pitch was also called a ball, and Denkinger ejected Andújar, who again lost his cool and charged at Denkinger. It took three teammates to restrain him and get him off the field.

And if the great majority of voters were guided by JAWS, that'd be compelling evidence that Trout's far ahead. But they're not (not yet, anyway--20 years from now, who knows?)--Kershaw's hardware will figure in prominently. You're arguing "should"; I'm talking about "is."

But I also realize pitchers are a much bigger roll of the dice. Trout's similarity comps include seven HOF'ers, one player who will go in, Vada Pinson, and Tony Conigliaro. Kerhaws's include Seaver, Clemens, Palmer, and Pedro--great start--but also Gary Nolan, Vida Blue, and Lefty Liefeld (?).

Zone was a mess all series but I think the better team won. Cards beat Kershaw twice and Greinke once. Dodgers also had Hanley and Ethier in the lineup but they were hardly a presence. We'll get em next year.

All SP's vs CF's (not all OF's or all position players) isn't a fair comparison (different sample sizes). But Kershaw is clearly the best pitcher in baseball based on a body of work stretching over a few years, so it would be like Johan Santana getting knocked around in '06-'07. Whether they continue(d) on a HOF path isn't really the point.

He was never the best in baseball, but Andy Pettitte had a lot of meltdown starts in the playoffs considering his reputation as a big time pitcher (and possible HOFer). I count at least six (although none since 2001).

But Kershaw is clearly the best pitcher in baseball

hmmmmm

kershaw is obviously the best pitcher in baseball, yes

same thing i mentioned with the trout vs cabrera thing -- unless we're talking hitters in coors, everyone is apparently perfectly happy to acknowledge park factors, but no one actually cares to include them in their evaluation of players

i think kershaw is probably in the top 2, maybe still the best even in LA, but i'd put verlander right up there even with this last year under his belt

well yeah i mean you almost have to weigh more recent seasons more heavily when you're talking about who the best pitcher/player is RIGHT NOW. if we weigh each season equally then over the last 3 years verlander is right there with him, maybe even better

Whether he's #1 or #1A doesn't really change the argument.

Dodger Stadium has averaged about a 96 PF during Kershaw's career, the last few years Coors is around 115-120, down from it's high 120's heyday in the 90's. So basically there's a good reason why Coors was and remains a special case.

ok -- coors being super special doesn't make other park differences smaller or something, kershaw would still look like a different pitcher in most other parks

That's what I was thinking of (xpost). At any given time there are, what, maybe five to ten starting pitchers who are more or less in their prime and on a HOF track? Today's list starts with Verlander, Kershaw, and Felix, and you can fill in the rest different ways. I don't think Andujar was one of those pitchers in 1985, but I'd have to go back and check.

wasn't alive at the time, but andujar had a career losing record coming into 1985, so i doubt it

i was wondering, in WAR, who is best starting pitcher of the past 5 years?

Verlander -- Lee -- Felix -- Kershaw -- Greinke (in fWAR)

no idea how to find that in bb-ref but kershaw has a 0.1 lead on verlander there

kershaw would still look like a different pitcher in most other parks

Not so different -- his home/road splits this year were almost identical, his ERA was half a run higher on the road but the difference is probably due to luck, because his peripherals are virtually the same.

Dodger stadium is interesting for park factors... the symmetric outfield suppresses doubles and triples, night games you dont see many home runs, but when its warm you get an uptick. Whats the stat equivalent for that? hehe

xp h/r splits are never a reliable way of determining that, especially in a 1-season sample size (for his career his road ERA is 0.86 higher)

during andujar's time i remember that the dominant pitchers everyone seemed to fear were guys like the usual HOF suspects + candelaria, mario soto, steve rogers, dave stieb, frank viola, and yeah andujar for several years. but he was only "great" for 3 seasons iirc.

some of those guys were incredibly good too. perennial all-stars, guys who started the all-star game, deservedly feared.