(xpost) Very true. It's probably as simple as that.
― clemenza, Friday, 5 November 2021 23:33 (two years ago) link
There was also, I think, if you look at Munson's last two seasons, the perception that decline was underway.
― clemenza, Friday, 5 November 2021 23:35 (two years ago) link
In 2019, the Modern Era committee didn't come close to voting Munson in, although he *was* on the (bottom of the) list of ten guys they considered. But I think that shows it's not just about the preferences of 1980s voters.
― reggae mike love (polyphonic), Friday, 5 November 2021 23:37 (two years ago) link
I'm back to not getting it, then. Sabremetrically, he does well (5.2 bWAR/162 games), and at the time, he was admired and famous (ranked higher among catchers than Fisk and Simmons, I think--after Bench--though maybe I'm not remembering that right).
― clemenza, Friday, 5 November 2021 23:44 (two years ago) link
For what it's worth: Munson started the AS game in '74/75/76, Fisk started in '73/77/78. So I guess they were perceived--at least among the fans who voted--as equals.
― clemenza, Friday, 5 November 2021 23:50 (two years ago) link
It's wild to look at the damage Fisk did as an old guy. And he was still playing 100 games at catcher at age 43.
― reggae mike love (polyphonic), Saturday, 6 November 2021 00:01 (two years ago) link
James got some follow-up on his Munson dismissal today. I know I've posted about this a few times already...The e-mail is polite and carefully laid out, even pointing out that James himself once ranked Munson as the 7th greatest catcher ever in peak value. James's response kind of amazes me.
Of Munson, you say: "I don' t think he is a legitimate Hall of Fame candidate, and I don't believe he has any business being in the Hall of Fame discussion." I'm a bit baffled by this (and no, I'm not, and have never been, a Yankee fan). Looking objectively, he's 15th among C's in WAR, 12th in Jay Jaffe's JAWS system (which is focused on HOF worthiness). 200+ win shares in a career tragically cut short. A ROY, an MVP, 7 time All Star, got MVP votes in 7 seasons. Hit .357 in 30 playoff games. Was the Captain of a legendary team. In your historical Abstract you have him 7th in peak value as of that time. Given the above, maybe not a HOF'er but not even "in the discussion" seems very harsh. Can you elaborate? If not, I'm just curious, do you make any allowances for the career cut short by a plane crash or do you think that's not relevant?Asked by: Steve
Answered: 11/6/2021No disrespect, but I don't think I am obligated to use the same value systems that other people use.
― clemenza, Saturday, 6 November 2021 15:10 (two years ago) link
James' career value is dropping like a rock.
― Everybody Loves Ramen (WmC), Saturday, 6 November 2021 15:17 (two years ago) link
Stupid reader, why would anyone think win shares are a value system Bill James would use? I mean, sure, James invented them and framed the Abstract entirely around them...
― reggae mike love (polyphonic), Saturday, 6 November 2021 19:16 (two years ago) link
No QO to Kershaw. Is he hanging em up?$
― FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Monday, 8 November 2021 01:12 (two years ago) link
Yet more Posey-Munson stuff from David Schoenfield (who also compares Posey to Puckett):
https://www.espn.com/mlb/insider/story/_/id/32545582/where-buster-posey-stands-all-great-catchers
How bad is Kershaw's health? (I guess not making a qualifying offer maybe answers that.) Have to believe someone will take a chance on him. If that is it, the Koufax parallels never end...
― clemenza, Monday, 8 November 2021 21:47 (two years ago) link
the reddit brain trust seemed to think there's decent odds of him having a multi-year deal soon – but i dunno why you wouldn't still offer up a QO.
― FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 9 November 2021 03:30 (two years ago) link
Because the org knows he doesnt want to leave
― Its big ball chunky time (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Tuesday, 9 November 2021 04:54 (two years ago) link
I think Dave Fleming dug up an even better point of comparison for Posey than Munson: Mickey Cochrane.
https://www.billjamesonline.com/the_ballad_of_buster_posey/
― clemenza, Wednesday, 10 November 2021 02:56 (two years ago) link
Really enjoyed that, thanks for sharing
― reggae mike love (polyphonic), Wednesday, 10 November 2021 20:45 (two years ago) link
*not* qualifying kershaw did him a favor, i suspect (other than that it's vaguely insulting)
-if healthy, he *might* be worth $18.4M for one year on the free agent market, but it's questionable, as is his arm-could be wrong, but i doubt he needs the money-so i assume he wants years-had he been qualified, other teams would have had to give up a top draft pick to sign an aging unhealthy pitcher-now he can sign a lengthier, lower-per-year deal with anyone, with no penalties-if he really wants to stay with the dodgers, he -- unlike, say, greinke -- will totally take a lesser offer as long as it has the years
otoh god only knows what free agent compensation will be like after rob manfred destroys baseball
― mookieproof, Wednesday, 10 November 2021 20:58 (two years ago) link
Joakim Soria
― just staying (Karl Malone), Sunday, 14 November 2021 17:56 (two years ago) link
for some reason i have always thought Soria was 35 and on the brink of retirement. since like 2010. i have no idea why. but he's 37 now, and now retired.
― just staying (Karl Malone), Sunday, 14 November 2021 17:57 (two years ago) link
dude had a hell of a career for a reliever.
― FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Sunday, 14 November 2021 20:44 (two years ago) link
https://theathletic.com/news/royals-reliever-wade-davis-retires-leaves-as-world-series-champ-and-3-time-all-star/C50bQGC2cmTc/
Dominant in 2014-15: 139.1 IP, 0.97 ERA, 71 hits, 7.3 bWAR.
― clemenza, Thursday, 25 November 2021 13:11 (two years ago) link
i wonder what his career would have been like if he'd been used as a reliever from the get-go.
― FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Thursday, 25 November 2021 14:04 (two years ago) link
Mysterious Fish, the greatest Japanese baseball mascot of all-time, just announced his retirement. RIP to a legend. cc: @mondomascots https://t.co/zkMRgWcoW5 pic.twitter.com/l0bVn8jAFx— Eric Casey (@EricCasey) December 5, 2021
― mookieproof, Monday, 6 December 2021 15:02 (two years ago) link
andrew romine, who put up 0.6 bWAR over parts of 11 seasons
― mookieproof, Saturday, 11 December 2021 16:12 (two years ago) link
That’s a type of accomplishment I guess.
― FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Saturday, 11 December 2021 17:12 (two years ago) link
as mark twain wrote, you have to be kind of good to suck badly that bad for that long
― my hands are always in my pockets or gesturing. (Karl Malone), Saturday, 11 December 2021 18:08 (two years ago) link
on the bright side, he's the best player in his family. brother austin is at -0.5 over parts of 10 seasons and their dad kevin was -1.4 over parts of seven
― mookieproof, Saturday, 11 December 2021 18:21 (two years ago) link
i wonder if they like to talk WAR around the kitchen table during the holidays
― my hands are always in my pockets or gesturing. (Karl Malone), Saturday, 11 December 2021 18:23 (two years ago) link
kyle seager, age 34
― mookieproof, Thursday, 30 December 2021 01:00 (two years ago) link
wow, what? wasn't expecting that.
― Karl Malone, Thursday, 30 December 2021 04:01 (two years ago) link
three-time detroit tiger cameron maybin
― mookieproof, Monday, 3 January 2022 23:54 (two years ago) link
jon lester
― na (NA), Wednesday, 12 January 2022 14:20 (two years ago) link
melky cabrera
― na (NA), Friday, 14 January 2022 19:13 (two years ago) link
Travis Snider, who last played in MLB in 2015.
― NoTimeBeforeTime, Friday, 14 January 2022 19:17 (two years ago) link
top-10 prospect in 2008-9; career bWAR of 4.3. solid season with the pirates in 2014 tho!
― mookieproof, Friday, 14 January 2022 20:18 (two years ago) link
The guy was an absolute beast in the minor. Vlad-like stats and then totally crumbled in the majors. Probably the biggest bust in jays history?
― FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Saturday, 15 January 2022 00:17 (two years ago) link
People sometimes ask me.. What is it like to play "Pro Baseball"?Retirement has brought up a lot of different emotions and memories for me. It's given space to think. 16 seasons in professional baseball. Here is a thread on where it has taken me..— Travis Snider (@Lunchboxhero45) January 15, 2022
― reggae mike love (polyphonic), Saturday, 15 January 2022 19:38 (two years ago) link
I have felt on top of the world. I have felt all alone.
This fucking sport, amirite?
― Andy K, Sunday, 16 January 2022 02:13 (two years ago) link
francisco liriano, 38
at three years and $39m, he was the recipient of what is still the pittsburgh pirates’ largest-ever free agent deal; a year and a half into it they had to give the blue jays two prospects just to take him off their hands
― mookieproof, Monday, 17 January 2022 21:30 (two years ago) link
One of those prospects, Reese McGuire, was pretty great his first two seasons/150 AB; nothing since, although still with the Jays.
― clemenza, Monday, 17 January 2022 23:26 (two years ago) link
and better known for something else
― FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 02:25 (two years ago) link
Parking lot? I'd forgotten!
― clemenza, Tuesday, 18 January 2022 03:55 (two years ago) link
Longtime big-league first baseman Adrián González, who played for the Rangers, Padres, Red Sox, Dodgers, and Mets across 15 MLB seasons, officially announced his retirement today on his personal Instagram.Gonzalez last played in the majors in 2018, but he was active as recently as this past season, playing 43 games with the Mexican League’s Mariachis de Guadalajara and posting a .340/.412/.531 batting line in 187 trips to the plate. He also represented Mexico in the 2020 Summer Olympics in Tokyo (held in 2021 due to the COVID-19 pandemic), where he collected three hits and a walk in 12 plate appearances.
Gonzalez last played in the majors in 2018, but he was active as recently as this past season, playing 43 games with the Mexican League’s Mariachis de Guadalajara and posting a .340/.412/.531 batting line in 187 trips to the plate. He also represented Mexico in the 2020 Summer Olympics in Tokyo (held in 2021 due to the COVID-19 pandemic), where he collected three hits and a walk in 12 plate appearances.
― Karl Malone, Sunday, 6 February 2022 19:30 (two years ago) link
ryan zimmerman
― mookieproof, Tuesday, 15 February 2022 20:26 (two years ago) link
dude had himself a career. all time Nationals leader in at bats, Runs, RBIs, Hits, doubles, home runs, total bases, xbh and GIDP!
― FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 15 February 2022 21:26 (two years ago) link
interesting list
All-time walk-off HR:13 - Jim Thome12 - Jimmie Foxx, Mickey Mantle, Stan Musial, Albert Pujols, Frank Robinson, Babe Ruth11 – David Ortiz, Tony Perez, Ryan Zimmerman That's 10 Hall of Famers, plus Zim. And if his shoulder troubles of 2012-14 don't force him to move to 1B ...— Mark Zuckerman (@MarkZuckerman) February 15, 2022
― mookieproof, Tuesday, 15 February 2022 21:47 (two years ago) link
...he still wouldn't have been a hall of famer
― ✖, Wednesday, 16 February 2022 15:26 (two years ago) link
haha, yeah. plus there are quite a few players who might have been hall of famers if it wasn't for those few years and that one injury that derailed the career...
zimmerman was good, though, and it is an interesting list.
― snarl self own (Karl Malone), Wednesday, 16 February 2022 18:16 (two years ago) link
dwight gooden stands out. even WITH all of his troubles he has a case for HOF
― snarl self own (Karl Malone), Wednesday, 16 February 2022 18:17 (two years ago) link
as an aside, i think players that were suspended for recreational drug use should get bonus points for the hall of fame. that's like playing on Nightmare difficulty in doom
― snarl self own (Karl Malone), Wednesday, 16 February 2022 18:20 (two years ago) link
LHP and union man andrew miller
― mookieproof, Thursday, 24 March 2022 21:47 (two years ago) link