Let's Bitch About Our Stupid, Annoying Baseball Team: the 2024 Toronto Blue Jays Thread

I love this thread title and I fully approve

We encourage all manner of airing-of-the-grievances in this thread.

As bad as general fan morale here was after the Berrios debacle, I think it's even worse now after a winter of smoke and mirrors and waiting at the altar. If they don't advance past the first round of the playoffs this year, I'd be inclined to take it apart and start over.

this was nice

I hate seeing people talk shit about Toronto like they know it. If you live in Toronto you know how special of a place it is and how passionate the people are #GeauxCanada #GeauxBlueJays 🇨🇦🇨🇦

— Kevin Gausman (@KevinGausman) December 11, 2023

I saw that, and it was. Was it maybe specifically a response to something Costas said?

I will say, that as tone-deaf as Costas's comment might have been in terms of singling out a city, what he said was basically true, right? I'm quite sure MLB and the networks were relieved Ohtani ended up in L.A. instead of here. That seems obvious.

i think it was in response to the american media, in the wake of the ohtani deal, suggesting 'no one would ever willingly sign in toronto'

That's definitely stupid. Past the tax/exchange issues, there is no issue. In the early '90s, everyone wanted to come here.

Kevin Gausman really my favourite Jay

The Jays aren't annoying, they simply don't have a coherent five year plan for competing with the stronger teams in the AL East. Their offense is underperforming and only Bichette and Springer are signed past 2024. Everything's cool, folks!

only Bichette and Springer are signed past 2024

The only position players, that is. They might be a 75-win team, but we'll have Gausman ready to go for G1 of the playoffs!

(nothing against Gausman, he's great)

we also have no real option at 3b right now. if we were the 2014 marlins, sure - we could shunt Biggio or Schnider or Espinal over there; or throw Orelvis Martinez or Addison Barger into the deep end as a major league 3b and see what happens. but if the jays want to be a competitive AL east team, they will need to replace that ~4 wins Chapman gave us every year (even with his hot/cold bat). i figured they would go for Candelario as an affordable/average option and then make up those wins elsewhere; but he signed with the reds pretty quickly. so it's either resign Chapman for a lot of money (not the worst option out there) - or trade for another 3b; but outside of - maybe - Kim on the Padres, who even wants to part with an above average 3b?!

ok. apparently in the presser this morning they said they are "comfortable" with our current options at 3b. 2014 marlins it is a guess. (unless this is an attempt to get Chapman to lower his asking)

apparently they are also "talking to" Yariel Rodriguez and Joc Pederson. I like Rodriguez as a 5th/swing man option - but not very excited about Pederson. would rather they go for Hoskins as a LF/1B/DH

Joc was…not good in SF. Entirely possible he turns it around in Toronto. It’s not even so much a performance thing, anyone can have a down year, but Andrew Baggarly called him out repeatedly for his attitude & lack of conditioning in The Athletic (Baggarly felt the Giants should have re-signed Belt).

👀 👀 👀

(via Baggs) pic.twitter.com/YM2vueikN5

— LOLKNBR (@LOLKNBR) September 26, 2023

Reminds me of a certain movie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9Q0kp8CMFQ

What am I missing here? Were the Jays 10th at the end of last year? (Maybe, but just barely.) It's not like they've gotten better.

https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-power-rankings-inaugural-2024-edition

Ross Atkins feels good about the team as is, everything's just fine.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2024/01/ross-atkins-discusses-current-state-of-blue-jays-roster.html#:~:text=Lineup%20regulars%20like%20George%20Springer,the%20loss%20of%20Chapman's%20bat.

Told you so! Everything is peachy.

Everyone who underperformed last year will bounce back and make up for the loss of Chapman, Ohtani, Aaron Judge, Judge Judy, and the Willie Mays cloning project that didn't pan out. When Vlad, Varsho, and Springer combine to hit 190 home runs next year you won't be disappointed!

Looking at that power ranking, I’m not sure which teams below the Jays I’d put above them? Fangraphs has the 2024 jays projected for 5th best war in baseball (yes that’s not the be-all end-all). Understand the future doesn’t look bright and I have no way near the eye test as many of you loyals, but as a follower from the distance the jays still seem like a team with a solid core that suffers from being in one of the toughest divisions in baseball. Was that post season appearance emblematic of the jays season, or were they just worn out? I understand the cynics would like to say option A, but a team that performs like that as a general trend doesn’t get 89 wins imo

I think that 89 wins was their true talent level, which is good enough to be a top 10 MLB but doesn't scream "WS contender". As far as being in one of the toughest divisions, that's been the excuse for 30 years, but the Rays figured out how to crack the Yanks/Red Sox glass ceiling, the Orioles have had good stretches outside of a dry spell in the early 2000's (and are really good now). The Jays need to stop functioning like a woe-is-us mid-market team, there are seven million people in the GTA and they're owned by a huge media conglomerate.

Find myself not caring all that much:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/blue-jays-guerrero-jr-unable-to-reach-deal-ahead-of-arbitration-deadline/

Didn't know there was Vlad Jr. Jr.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/report-mets-sign-16-year-old-prospect-vladi-miguel-guerrero/

Not a video game guy, but yeah, there might have been a better choice or two (or 40)

https://www.sportskeeda.com/baseball/news-you-re-kidding-me-so-many-better-options-fans-left-stunned-mlb-the-show-announces-vladimir-guerrero-jr-cover-athlete

I have no strong feeling towards Justin Turner one way or the other.

remember when they used to pick a different player for the canadian version of the show? i sure do. americans had miggy but we had dang ol' brett lawrie on the show 14 cover

Vlad wins:

https://www.tsn.ca/mlb/vladimir-guerrero-jr-wins-record-19-9m-arbitration-hearing-against-toronto-blue-jays-1.2072949

xp ha, yeah! i assumed this was the Canadian cover. I don't think he's a bad pick at all though. Dude is primed to explode imo, if he can avoid the curse of The Show cover athlete (which i'll readily blame Vlad's underwhelming 24 season on)

I used to follow Vladdy on Instagram and he would play The Show after games so it’s nice to have someone who plays the game on the cover. He’s an attention-getting high profile player. It’s fine.

The Athletic gives Toronto's offseason a D

The most memorable part of the Blue Jays’ offseason was a tweet declaring who was decidedly NOT in Toronto (nor headed there, at the moment or eventually). Overall, the Jays’ winter suffered from expectations heightened by their pursuits of Shohei Ohtani or Juan Soto. In a vacuum, bringing back Kevin Kiermaier and bringing in Justin Turner are fine moves; in this vacuum, they leave a kind of … void.

Whereas Alek Manoah’s probably going to be better than his nightmarish 2023, Toronto shouldn’t count on 128 starts from the other four members of their likely rotation. Yariel Rodriguez, who excelled in Japan following a shift to the bullpen, could be a candidate for more innings here.

Offensively, Toronto is hunting rebounds across its lineup, especially from Vladimir Guerrero Jr. But whatever positive regressions accrue there may be mitigated by the loss of Matt Chapman at third, with the light-hitting Isiah Kiner-Falefa (.655 OPS over the last three seasons) slated for significant time on the infield. As with Tampa Bay, Toronto’s offseason feels underwhelmingly unimaginative. In an American League without a behemoth like the Dodgers, that’s a missed opportunity to position yourself nearer to the top.

It's too early to say, obviously. I've had a resentment rattling around in my head about how they've proven they have $600M to play with (yes, Ohtani is a special case), so go land a big one! every contract is going to be terrible, let's be real. it's wait-and-see rn tho

Another utility infielder:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/blue-jays-agree-to-deal-with-veteran-escobar-adding-versatile-infielder/

We're going to lead the league in...scrappiness.

scrappiness

This is very exciting: I now live about a 15-minute walk from Davis Schneider's uniform, in case I'm ever seized by a sudden urge to see it.

Davis Schneider’s uniform from his MLB debut is going to be featured in the Canadian Baseball Hall of Fame.
https://t.co/d3URSe64NY

— Jays Journal (@JaysJournal) February 17, 2024

Not exactly news, I know:

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2024/02/hyun-jin-ryu-discussing-contract-with-kbos-hanwha-eagles.html

He’s signed now, I saw

Ah, wrong link--I meant to post about his signing. I don't know if he'll ever make it back--he pitched decently last year, but he's just shy of 37.

Might have decided to cash in and move close to home. Can’t blame him

FB teaser so I'd click: "Check out Alek Manoah's motto for 2024." I clicked, and his new motto is "They don't give out World Series trophies in Triple-A."

I was rooting for "Shut the fuck up."

did he confirm whether or not they give em out in Complex League? 😉

Alex Manoah 2024 ST debut:

IP: 1.2
H: 3
R: 4
ER: 4
BB: 1
K: 0
HRA: 0
XBHA: 2
HBP: Torkelson (by Manoah); Canha (by Manoah); Kelly, C (by Manoah)
ERA: 21.60
WHIP (inc. HBP): 4.20

Yikes. We may have a cerified case of Steve Blass Syndrome here.

Not surprised at all by this outcome

Incredible article about the Ohtani flight tracker and the Blue Jays. Half the roster was at Manoah’s wedding tracking the flight on the golf course!

ROMANO: “I remember where it was. We were sitting by the pool, actually. I was kind of on my phone. And then I was like, ‘NO WAYYYY.’ And then I was telling all the boys. … I was like, ‘Oh, he’s headed there. He’s got to be signing with us.’ So we were all really, really pumped up about it.”

But there were also 18 holes of golf to play. So Romano, Kevin Gausman, Tim Mayza and Danny Jansen hopped in their cart for one of the most distracted rounds of golf ever played.

GAUSMAN: “I remember somebody said, ‘How about this whole Ohtani thing?’ And I was, like, ‘What?’ What do you mean?’ But as we were playing golf, it just got crazier and crazier.”

THE ATHLETIC (TO JORDAN ROMANO): “What about the story where Kikuchi had an entire restaurant reserved for dinner with Ohtani that night? Did you try to confirm that? Did you even question whether Kikuchi would be in Toronto in December?”

ROMANO: “No, because I knew he was. So that made sense. Because I knew he was working out in Toronto. I even knew the place he was working out at. So that was just another piece that just felt like: This is getting real.”

TA: “And since you were at this wedding in Puerto Rico, there was no reason for you to think: ‘Why wouldn’t he have invited me to dinner?’”

ROMANO: “Exactly.”

But not all of Kikuchi’s teammates were content to assume it must be true. Like Bo Bichette, for instance. He went right to the source.

TA: “Did you ever ask anybody, like Ross Atkins or Mark Shapiro, if any of this was true? Or Kikuchi, who supposedly rented out that restaurant?”

BICHETTE: “I talked to Kikuchi a little bit about it, yeah. So I kind of knew that the rumors probably weren’t true when he texted me and said: ‘I don’t know what’s going on.’ I figured he would know.”

Been trying to formulate a joke related to Manoah's wedding; it would help if he were the one throwing the bouquet.

I can’t think of one either, so here’s a nice photo of the lads at the wedding reception
https://i.postimg.cc/3R71qX96/IMG-6144.jpg

Gausman, Manoah, Espinal, Romano; far left is Mike on my bowling team; far right, blanking out.

Danny Jansen?

Jansen

Vlad's birthday yesterday:

https://jaysjournal.com/posts/a-look-at-vladdys-career-accomplishments-as-he-turns-25

Their conclusion: "It's easy to forget how young Guerrero still is considering how long he's been around, but it's important to remember what he has done for this team and that his best years are still ahead of him."

My conclusion: "There's 2021, and then there's everything else."

To be fair, one day before Bryce Harper's 26th birthday, I would have summed up his career exactly the same--there was 2015, and then there was everything else. So I know there's lots of time to turn things around. Whether that happens or not--and if it does, whether or not it hpapens in Toronto--nobody knows.

Votto homers off Wheeler on the first pitch he sees as a Jay. Rolls ankle on a bat immediately afterwards, leaves game

Yeah the lesson of the 2023 Diamondbacks isn't "don't get your hopes up".

.560 baseball to win 85 games can be accomplished with three more months of .500 baseball and a 14-2 run. A lot of teams have snuck in that way. There's some luck involved, even if it means they're a lot closer to being a true talent .500 team than a .560 team.

I think I see this team very differently than you guys. A 14-2 run seems a tall order for a team that hasn't yet swept a series, even if only two games.

I'd sell at whatever point in the season will normally get you the best return. Don't know when that is.

They haven't swept a series -- that's true. But that's past performance. And it reflects their true talent level -- arguably that of a .500 team that can't dominate opponents. It doesn't mean that they can't get lucky and go on a mini-run.

I'm not optimistic. It means that the entire offense has to wake up at the same time over at least a two week stretch. Again, take last year's Diamondbacks. They were essentially a .500 team. They were outscored on the season. They had a strong first two months, then were bad until mid-August, and were barely good enough in September. And this year, they're back at .500. Things can happen.

i'm still with this team, they're very interesting. I think they'll make the playoffs, esp. with HOU faltering early. they did go on a 19-6 run last year (.684), I posted last year regarding the SP stretch of about 10 games with 1.00 ERA with the same staff as now. Vlad is over .400 the last month and Bo is looking like he's back. as for old men, Springer is moved to 7 and JTurn needs to sit regularly to keep smt in the tank, i think. who knows? i'm not optimistic but would be bummed to see the window close even earlier than it is closing now

this team is headed for a fire sale, i think. the core - the management - I'm not sure whats to blame, but this is a team that has choked horribly in the playoffs three years in a row and plays inconsistently during the season; very rarely firing on all cylinders. i'm fine with waiting until deeper into the season to make that call. i'd be fine with locking up one or two of our guys long term (why they haven't already i don't understand) also. but this is not a team that has it in them to win or hit some crazy hot streak. for whatever reason they're much better on paper. maybe they can play better and fumble their way into the wild card - but i am not hopeful.

Which is part of my throwing in the towel: even if they were to fumble their way into the third WC--which I give them no more than a 10% chance at, which might be generous--we've seen them in the playoffs these last couple of years.

For me, the desirability of a backdoor WC (where you win 84, 85 games or so) depends on context. If you go back 10 years, you can find me posting in Blue Jay threads that all I wanted was to play meaningful games in late September--they'd been nowhere for so long, the bar for a successful season was pretty low. But after 2015/16, and after all the underachieving of this team, a third WC just isn't very exciting to me--even though I realize that that will sometimes lead to much more. But with this team, even that scenario is purely theoretical.

Assuming they get the win tonight, I'm extremely interested in what happens tomorrow, especially with regards to the last few posts. Because if you can't sweep a 15-41 team...(and if they do, I'll take that as a tiny, tiny sign of life).

In what universe is not making the playoffs preferable to making the playoffs? Because being in the playoffs and not having the best team on paper might be a recipe for disappointment?

They may have sucked in the postseason the last two years, but they had an opportunity to win the WS -- their chances weren't good, but it was a chance. When you don't make the playoffs you have zero chance.

There are at least two answers that seem obvious to me: 1) When not making the playoffs leads to a rebuild like the one the Astros underwent way back, that leads to a period of sustained success and teams that are legitimate WS contenders, as opposed to WC teams who get in on a wing and a prayer (because somebody has to once the playoffs are expanded enough). Or like the Orioles now. I know the counter-arguments you'll throw up--the cheating, the fact that the Orioles haven't yet won anything and may not sustain their success, the patience required, the luck required...I get all that. 2) When not making the playoffs leads to the smarmy, incompetent GM getting fired--and maybe, if we're lucky, his boss too.

You can reverse the order there: the second one should happen first, so we have a better chance at #1.

I think we start from the same spot--recognition that the Jays' philosophy is to tinker just enough to grab one of those wild-cards--but have a very different estimation of how rewarding a strategy that is.

(I could quote you in a couple of your early posts in this thread, which are much closer to what I just wrote...)

more importantly, thoughts on this? (posting on team thread bc they're uncomfirmed cityconnects
https://i.postimg.cc/PrK2P2P5/IMG-1263.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/qvRQny3X/IMG-1264.jpg

The hat's okay; the jersey would be like wearing a refractor card.

those are hideous but not notably worse than the rest of these grotesque uniforms

honestly feel like ilx could come up with better ideas

Supposedly they’re fake

I could look it up, but maybe someone could give me a one- or two-sentence explanation of what City Connect is all about. I haven't a clue. Is this a company in the process of taking over uniform design for all teams, or is it just a fan thing?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Connect

think the idea as a whole was taken from the NBA's 'city edition' jerseys

sorry, that is not a one- or two-sentence explanation

i look at it as an nba thing. i hope those aren’t the kits. supposed to be about the city, i want to be selfish as a torontonian and not have any “canadas team” reference for once. but not the gd skyline, that’s insanely lazy

I have a Juan Soto Padres city connect shirsey and it is awesome, way more than this pic would indicate:

https://i.imgur.com/cNMQSbL.png

Somewhere in Ball Four, Bouton gets nostalgic for the simplicity of his old Yankees uniform, and writes something about feeling like a clown in whatever the Pilots wore (which I'm guessing was less garish than that Jays jersey above).

You can see them here:

https://www.toddradom.com/blog/the-1969-seattle-pilots-one-team-one-season-many-uniforms

The Mariners used them as part inspiration for their own (polarising) city connects; I personally like them and have a city connect hoodie, the blue rules tbh

https://www.mlb.com/mariners/fans/city-connect

I think most teams with city connect designs have a page like this explaining the details; personally still think the Padres have everyone else beaten with theirs: https://www.mlb.com/padres/fans/city-connect

i liked the mariners city connect enough that i was using the it on my custom team in the show for a while. eventually stopped using it when i thought one day "i look like the police" and couldn't unsee it

Platinum Blonde looked a lot like the Police.

My feelings about the Jays aside, hate hearing that Manoah left in the 2nd tonight with some kind of injury.

Unrelated: Martin Maldonado's OPS+ right now is -23. I thought OPS+ was a percentage, and that a negative number was impossible. Anyway, not welcome on my all-catcher fantasy team.

I saw someone else with a negative as well, I can’t remember who but aldo didn’t realize it was possible

I don't like either the jersey or the hat. The hat logo looks a lot like the "T" design they used around 2005? It didn't last long.

The Manoah news sounds bad. Why did they pitch him when they knew he was hurting after his last start?

This image, for Joe Carter's upcoming annual golf tournament in Oakville, made me laugh.

https://i.postimg.cc/Pxx9n60j/josh.jpg

If anyone's going have a temper tantrum on the course and beat someone senseless with a golf club, it's John Donaldson.

Is that Josh’s evil twin?

Or is Josh the evil one

(Twin Peaks man-from-another-place voice) One and the same.

I think OPS+ isn't actually measuring a guy's OPS to the average, it's measuring his OBP to the average, his SLG to the average, and combining them. So if his OBP is 10% above average and his SLG is 15%, his OPS would be 125. And if his OBP is more than 50% below average and his SLG is more than 50% below average, you get below zero.

opened mlb the show today and i guess those are the real toronto city connects lol

I will be getting the backpack version Wednesday. That one doesn’t lol too bad tbh; but the connect Vlad bobblehead we were set to get Monday was a “no thank you” from me and the gf

I like the City Connect "Night Mode" uniform!

Me: Can we get hyperized birdhead?

Mom: no, we have hyperize--, oh wait

What is a hyperized bird head? pic.twitter.com/npr7w0RPT1

— Sophie is a hyperized borealis (@snowphieee) May 30, 2024

let's see if this can go 20 innings despite the man on second

I kind of gave up on my Cy Young bet after Berrios had that one miserable game, but geez--how much do Cy Young voters get into the weeds and start looking at game logs? Take away that one start--8 earned runs in 3.2 IP--and Berrios has 11 starts ranging from 5 to 7 innings; one of 3 earned runs, five of 2 earned runs, two of 1 earned run, two of no earned runs. I think Shulman said that, including tonight, his ERA would be 1.94 otherwise.

Three with no earned runs, that should read.

what an ending

Took a look at Scooby-Doo's game logs out of Detroit--never less than 5 innings, 4 runs a couple of times, his other nine starts 0, 1, or 2. Translates to an ERA almost a full run less than Berrios. I don't know who else is in the mix, but I need for some team to step up and shellac him.

Berrios isn't even in bRef's Top 10 for WAR. Lugo's the guy to beat right now.

Lugo?!

Lugo on bRef, Skubal on Fangraphs (where Kikuchi is way ahead of Berrios...I guess that one start really sunk him for his seasonal stats).

Took a look at Scooby-Doo's game logs out of Detroit--never less than 5 innings, 4 runs a couple of times, his other nine starts 0, 1, or 2. Translates to an ERA almost a full run less than Berrios. I don't know who else is in the mix, but I need for some team to step up and shellac him.

He's second on the bRef list. There's a whole bunch guys in the mix--because of that one game, Berrios isn't one of them.

1. Lugo • KCR 3.3
2. Houck • BOS 3.0
3. Anderson • LAA 2.7
4. Skubal • DET 2.6
5. Fedde • CHW 2.5
6. Gil • NYY 2.3
7. Blanco • HOU 2.2
8. Crochet • CHW 2.0
9. Crawford • BOS 1.9
10. Clase • CLE 1.8

could never in a million years have guessed that list

Clase making the top 10 with only 29 IP is something... Crawford at #9 is at 68+.