5-Tool Players

I don't know if there has ever been a 5-tool pitcher, but I think a case can be made for Carlos Zambrano right now.

Average: .364
Slugging: .523
Speed: Surprisingly fast.
Throwing: Yes
Fielding

Rick Ankiel!

Whoops, wrong links for Z.

Speed (triple, bunt single at end)

Fielding

Maybe he should just concentrate on pitching given his last performance.

Hanley is the first player that comes to mind at the moment. Grady up until this year was pretty 5-tool.

His 6th tool is tossing water coolers and breaking bats over his knee. A real renaissance man!

Hanley's fielding is pretty lousy. Rollins might be a better SS example. Both Upton's are five tool players (at least now that BJ ain't playing a middle infield position haha.) Wright's a pretty good example.

Although I don't know if Wright's running speed is really that great actually.

how about markakis?

His speed's not great and his power is just so-so for a corner OF. Great player none-the-less (apparently he's got a cannon for an arm.)

is the threshold level greatness across the board or legitimate (which i read as at least better than average in all five)?

and how about chase utley?

Good question, j.q. I don't know. I would think better than average in all five is pretty hard to do in itself.

Not to confuse the issue, but there's also the Seven Skills:

1. hitting for average
2. hitting for power
3. strike zone judgment
4. offensive speed.
5. range afield
6. fielding reliability
7. throwing utility.

So far our list is:

Carlos Zambrano+
Rick Ankiel
Hanley (Ramirez?)
Grady (Sizemore? Sorry I am not on first-name bases with these chaps)
Nick Markakis
Chase Utley

Jimmy Rollins
David Wright
Justin Upton
B.J. Upton

well, markakis was top ten slg % for RFs and top five in steals, fwiw.

That sounds toolsy.

Nick Markakis

"'I like young kids,' Piniella said. 'I've always given young kids the opportunity to play and pitch, but at the same time, they have to be ready to do it. I like athleticism, I like tools. I certainly like speed. You've got to be ready to do it. If not, you have to keep working at it.'"

how was Babe Ruth's outfield arm?

"Athleticism" always gets a snort from me. Usually comes from ppl who overrate "the little things."

(I mean, obv Babe could throw well enough to be a star pitcher...)

You know, I have been watching a ton of games this year and I have decided that HOLLYWOOD ACTING is a very underrated factor in how umpires make calls.

There are SO many wrong calls and they get "evened up," etc. I really think that acting "athletic" and dramatic timing can get that extra edge. The umpires know it's entertainment.

Actually, that would be a fun thread: who are MLB's best derekjeter "actors"?

Guerrero, although not anymore. Alex Rodriguez.

Rick Ankiel doesn't really hit for average btw.

The Seven Skills are better than the Five Tools although I couldn't possibly judge the last three really.

Also could Guerrero really field well even when he was younger? I seem to recall lots of talk of mental lapses even when he was with the Expos.

I guess I only know about Guerrero's arm, which was superb.

Ankiel was .285 last year, and a bit below that this year. I think he could get his average closer to .300 pretty believably. Maybe that's too close to league average to be a "tool", though.

I think he hit .270-.280 in the minors.

Guerrero does have an awesome arm.

Vladdy's an interesting outlier because his tools are (or used to be) so good he makes the non-tool skills irrelevant. I don't know how his defensive judgment is but he's always been the worst hacker and the skills presume that judgment of the strike zone is helpful.

I suppose players like Jim Edmonds and Andruw Jones have "range" as a skill because of experience and ability to judge location of a falling ball, although they have declined so much athletically.

Manny Ramirez? If not, which tool is he lacking?

Uh fielding ability? Running speed?

Is THINKING toolsy?

Yeah but Guerrero can hit pitches that most people can't so it isn't really as huge a drawback as it is with oh let's say Garrett Anderson. Of course now that he can't his decline may be very steep.

Edmonds was def. 4 tool. He was never fast fast, but he got good jumps and was athletic. Jones was also 4 tool, missing BA completely.

Ankiel has stolen 2 bases across 3 seasons...

Stealing bases /= running speed though necessarily. Ankiel is quick enough to play CF competently.

Yeah they don't really let guys run that much anymore.

In Zambrano's case he may not be that speedy but it's the sheer differential between how slow he looks and how fast he gets. He gets a good first step.

I really don't know with Manny, is he so well known for being a klutz or base clogger? Waiting 5 seconds to take the first step, maybe that does detract from his speed.

They used to say Magglio Ordonez was 5-tool.

What are the 5 tools of Intanglibility:
1. Clutchiness
2. Heart
3. Makeup
4. Presence
5. THINKING

?

Um he's very well known for being a klutz. He's not Ortiz slow, but he's not quick either.

I guess left field is where they put the klutzes? The land patrolled by the Alfonso Sorianos of the league.

Sorry I have a left-right brain lesion from all the years of watching Sammy Sosa in right field.

LF is usually for dudes with weak arms (or else they'll be in RF) and poor range (or else they'll be in CF.)

Manny has a strong, but inaccurate arm if I recall correctly.

He has a good cutoff arm IIRC.

Oh and I don't know how Pudge is doing these days but at one point sure.

Ivan Rodgriguez.

Shifting nomenclature for ill-defined variables is making my head hurt but I like Cristian Guzman for a 5-tolls SS. Although maybe not for sheer "arm strength"? Not even sure how to measure that.

Cristian Guzman hits for power?

Okay some of these things are vague but basically my understanding:

1) BA = .300 consistently
2) Power = 30 HRs+ consistently
3) Running speed = raw speed around the bases or in OF (not necessarily SB or 2nd to 3rd on a single)
4) Exactly what it sez
5) Range/Arm Accuracy/Footwork/the whole ball and wax

Why on earth is Manny in this discussion?

JD Drew is a 5-tool player and everyone hates him anyway. Baldelli was one but lacked the sixth tool of not being made of glass.

5 tools is just the yankee infield + posada, right

Manny is in it to show the 5 tools are not synonymous with or essential to being good or liked.

Yeah the problem with the five tool discussions is that it assumes 1) that all these tools are equal and 2) that somehow being good at all five is better than oh let's say INSANELY good at the first two and crappy as hell at the last three (esp. if you combine the first two with the equally important NOT SWINGING AT PITCHES YOU CAN'T HIT tool!) I mean no one is going to confuse Frank Thomas with Willie Mays but that doesn't mean Frank isn't one of the best players ever (even if he's no Willie Mays.)

(^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^which is why I like Win Shares)

http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/index.php?view=winshares&linesToDisplay=50&orderBy=total&direction=DESC&season_filter%5B%5D=2008&league_filter%5B%5D=All&pos_filter%5B%5D=All&Submit=Submit

some players touted as having the five tools:

ruben sierra
carlos beltran
jose cruz jr
ruben rivera
shawn green

ruben rivera stole quite a few in his day.

Oh I think the five tool discussion recognizes that it's not an indicator of win contribution or whatever.

I think it's interesting that all five areas of ability are rarely present in the same athlete anymore, and haven't seemed to be present in the league superstars since Bonds and Guerro.

That Vlad Guerrero chap, that is

wasn't Billy Beane sposed to be a "5" when he roomed w/ Daryl Strawberry?

In fact, I get a bitter feeling whenever I hear of purported 5 tool prospects now because of Corey Patterson and Felix Pie. Bravo Fox Trot Deltas.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/index.php?view=winshares&linesToDisplay=50&orderBy=total&direction=DESC&season_filter%5B%5D=2008&league_filter%5B%5D=All&pos_filter%5B%5D=All&Submit=Submit

When C. Guzman is #9 in all of baseball, I have some quibbles with the system (not that Guzman hasn't been good this year).

would it be accurate to deem Win Shares a measure of how much better than the rest of one's team a player is?

No that's not my understanding.

I prefer VORP/WARP myself because the formula's actually make some degree of sense.

My understanding is that offensive VORP/WARP only evaluates from the moment a player hits the ball and terminates his initial baserunning (ie, no fielding, range, secondary baserunning ability, etc.)

...whereas Win Shares DOES attempt to take these factors in to effect.

(which is probably why VORP/WARP is usually LF/1B/DH heavy and Win Shares is weighted more fairly to good defenders).

WARP evaluates fielding. Not sure about secondary baserunning. VORP is only offense though.

Are you sure they don't contain baserunning adjustments? It says EQA does and believe that EQR is what determines BRAA and BRAR so I'm not sure why it wouldn't be a component in WARP.

carl crawford?

What are the 5 tools of Intanglibility:
1. Clutchiness
2. Heart
3. Makeup
4. Presence
5. THINKING

7. Upside

He has a good cutoff arm IIRC.

-- felicity,

lololol

btw a 100% legit '5-tool' tag, at the mlb level, would mean a position player with five -plus- tools. there are maybe like 2 of these at any given time.

To me it just means above league average at all five, but there you go.

tulowitzki was on the verge until this year

i think hanley and a-rod are the two right now, maybe utley, with sizemore off the radar

longoria hovering as well

Justin Upton has a chance, but average is killing him. Same with Chris Young.

Hamilton should probably be mentioned if Ankiel is. He's not the fastest CF, but he's not a liability out there by any means. If he was a LF/RF he would be automatic. Milton Bradley is sort of along those lines as well, although more of a liability in center after his surgery. Doesn't steal, but still fast.

His power has faded a bit in the past few years, but Bobby Abreu was called a 5-tool player at one point in Philly. The guy still stole 25 bases last year, so he can still run pretty well.

You can say the same for Carlos Beltran, but he doesn't seem to hit for as good an average as when he was in KC and his power numbers are off this year.

Abreu is terrible on defense.

Was he always? I thought he was pretty good when he was younger. He's not five tool anymore obv.

i don't think tulo could be regarded as five tool until he proves himself at sea level (like larry walker)