"it's not good for baseball in that situation" -- unwritten rules being broken, playing baseball the wrong way

keep this thread updated throughout the season so we can keep a list of the very bad men who are not nice to other teams.

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/23001797/minnesota-twins-upset-chance-sisco-baltimore-orioles-bunted-vs-shift-9th

Minnesota Twins players were upset Sunday that Baltimore Orioles catcher Chance Sisco bunted against the shift for a hit in the ninth inning of Minnesota's 7-0 victory.

With one out in the ninth, Sisco bunted toward the vacant left side of the infield to get on base. The Orioles eventually loaded the bases, but Jose Berrios worked out of trouble, getting Jonathan Schoop to pop out to the catcher and Adam Jones to strike out to complete the three-hit shutout.

Despite that, Twins second baseman Brian Dozier spoke out about Sisco's bunt after the game.

"I could've said something, but they have tremendous veteran leadership over there, with Chris Davis, Adam Jones and those guys," Dozier told reporters. "I'm sure they'll address it and move forward."

Berrios added to reporters: "I don't care if he's bunting. I just know it's not good for baseball in that situation. That's it."

Sisco told reporters he was doing what he could to get on base.

"Just trying to mess with the timing of the game," Sisco said, according to the Baltimore Sun. "He was kind of going through the lineup. Just trying to do what I can to get on base.

i've seen it suggested that they're pissed because it extended the game and they had to travel and play a day game today while the orioles are off

that doesn't make it any less dumb of course

i mean this isn't even really an "unwritten rule" right?

like there's an unwritten rule about bunting during a no-hitter/perfect game, and there's an unwritten rule about bunting when you have a big lead, but this doesn't meet either of those scenarios

No matter the game or sport, it is ridiculous to complain about someone making any legal play within the letter of the rules. If edge cases turn out to be an exploitable dominant strategy then usually rules are adjusted to mitigate the un-fun-ness or imbalance.

In other words even when you’re up 7-0 it’s still the batter’s job to get on base. It’s much worse to take a handicap because non-ludic considerations than to “run up the score” or whatever nonsense.

dozier is a fool

Or even down 7-0 selfxp

it is ridiculous to complain about someone making any legal play within the letter of the rules.

i want this PSA played on the scoreboard whenever fans boo the pitcher for throwing to first

That’s hilarious tho

the fans aren't booing because they think the pitcher is being a bad sport. they're doing it because it's fun to boo the other team and throwing to first constantly slows down the game. plus, if you can shame the pitcher into not throwing to first anymore maybe the runner can steal 8)

Old thread: AMUSING UNWRITTEN-RULE INFRACTIONS

lol that is the dumbest complaint ive ever heard in the the OP.

wow, rude

Andrelton Simmons' bunt single breaks up Corey Kluber's no-hitter in 5th inning.

— Bill Shaikin (@BillShaikin) April 4, 2018

Re: last night's Yanks-Red Sox brawl, apparently when you want to throw at a guy you need to do it on the first pitch. Kelly hitting Austin on the third pitch of the at-bat was out of line.

though lol @ the idea of getting to 2-0 and saying "fuck it, I'm nailing him with a fastball"

“I have two dogs.”

http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2018/04/12/clint-hurdle-on-javier-baez-willson-contreras-where-is-the-respect-for-the-game/

i can't read the full story bc it's on the lolthletic but still f this old man nonsense

where is francisco cervelli's respect for the game

on the original story, fuck's sake, extreme shifts are ALSO called "not good for baseball" so.. shouldn't defeating them be GOOD for baseball? i'd much rather see a return to ty cobb style hittin' 'em where they ain't as a counter to The Shift than the current tack, which seems to be juiced balls, altered "swing paths" and trying to basically just hit it out of the park

extreme shifts are extremely cool

i agree!

extreme shifts aren't new, either

no, doing them on every hitter is though

was weird a couple of weeks ago to see xander bogaerts checking the bill of his cap for instrux about where to position himself for the next batter

this is a good article on all this: http://www.weei.com/articles/column/bradford-are-players-buying-what-baseball-selling-when-it-comes-analytics-its-work

Ron Roenicke, Red Sox bench coach: "I think always since we started the shifting and things like that, you're going to have a pitcher that makes a good pitch and a guy is out front and he taps the ball through. You have to convince him first. You're right, that cost you. But say you go back a month. In the last month, we've saved you 10 hits and cost you two. Because it is an issue. A guy makes a great pitch he wants that guy to be out but he forgets about the bad pitch with a bullet line-drive that we're standing right there to catch. Everything is on percentages and the percentage is that I'm going to catch 10 balls and I'm only going to get hurt on two, I'm going to want to catch the 10 balls. And they buy into it. You just have to show them stuff."

https://www.twinkietown.com/2018/4/18/17251696/minnesota-twins-mlb-did-not-complain-about-francisco-lindor-home-run-celebration-cleveland-indians

The Houston Astros put a pretty good beating on the White Sox on Friday night, waltzing to a blowout 10-0 victory.

So why was the Astros' starting pitcher so steamed after the game?

Justin Verlander, the future Hall of Famer who took a no-hit bid into the fifth Friday, was vocally upset with Tim Anderson, the White Sox shortstop who has been playing with a totally different attitude this season after his on-field struggles last season and the emotional effects he experienced while dealing with the death of his best friend.

Verlander lost his no-hitter on Anderson's one-out base hit in the fifth inning, to which Anderson, whose mission this season is to have fun playing baseball, celebrated. But that celebration wasn't what peeved Verlander. Instead it was Anderson's attempt at stealing second base on a 3-0 count - and the subsequent celebration when the steal didn't count because of a walk - and his attempt at stealing third base shortly thereafter. That play went haywire, as Anderson was picked off, caught in a rundown, safely made it back to second but just as Omar Narvaez was arriving, making an out. The two exchanged words on the field after that play.

But remember that that's another one of Anderson's missions this year: to steal more bases and get in opposing pitchers' heads with what he's doing on the base paths.

Well, he sure got Verlander's attention this time.

"I wasn't upset with him being excited about getting a hit," Verlander told reporters after the game. "Hey, that's baseball and you can be excited about getting a hit, he earned it. He steals on 3-0 in a 5-0 game, that's probably not great baseball. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, I don't know. But he celebrated that, though. And it's like ‘Hey, I'm not worried about you right now. It's 5-0, I'm giving a high leg kick, I know you can steal. If I don't want you to steal, I'll be a little bit more aware of you. But I'm trying to get this guy out at the plate.'

"Anyway, I walk (Narvaez), (Anderson) steals 3-0, kind of celebrates that at second base again. I don't even know what he was celebrating, he didn't even get credit for a stolen base. Maybe he thought he did, I don't know.

"Then he makes, in my opinion, another bad baseball decision. Stealing third in a 5-0 game with two guys on in an inning where I was clearly struggling - I walked a guy on four pitches and went 1-0 to the next guy - and I pick you off on an inside move after the way he had kind of been jubilant about some other things, I was just as jubilant about that. Very thankful that he gave me an out. That's what I said, and he didn't like that comment but, hey, that's not my fault, that's his fault.

"I'm not going to let the situation dictate what I do out there, I'm going to slow everything down and that's what veterans can do - see the game, play the game, play the game the right way. He was a little over-agressive and I let him know it. I took offense to it."

Why all this angered the Astros' ace so much in the fifth inning of a 5-0 ballgame, that could be trickier to figure out. It sounds like another case of the "unwritten rules" of the game. But not being written down anywhere, it's hard exactly to tell which rule or rules Anderson broke.

Told after the game that Verlander wasn't very happy with him, Anderson didn't seem to be too concerned about being on the wrong side of the all-time great hurler.

"That's fine," he said. "If that's how I play, I'm having fun and it's exciting.

"I don't care what other people think, that don't bother me.

"I'm out just playing and having fun. If he took it to heart, so what?"

this is the good shit

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/090/082/9fc.gif

Yknow going back to the OP you could consider doing an extreme shift like that breaking some unwritten rule. You’re asking to get bunted on. It’s so dumb to complain about.

benches cleared in white sox/royals yesterday because salvador perez got mad at tim anderson for swearing after hitting a home run

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/white-sox-shortstop-tim-anderson-is-involved-in-another-beef-with-a-veteran-this-time-for-cussing/

I know Verlander's married to some model; where did Perez learn to be such a princess?

I think we all knew the Rays' 1-inning start would be "bad for baseball," and here's Zack Cozart

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/mlb/reds/2018/05/21/zack-cozart-criticizes-rays-back-back-sergio-romo-starts/630381002/

Sliding into home to break up a double play where you barely nick the catcher's leg with clearly no intention to hurt him = open season on catchers

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/23634315/anthony-rizzo-controversial-home-plate-slide-frustrates-pittsburgh-pirates

nah fuck that

the cubs as a team have a quite recent history of breaking pirates players' legs on slides
rizzo personally has a history of shady plays at the plate
joe maddon is a sanctimonious prick who believes only he and his team are capable of playing baseball the correct way. 'my concern is that they're teaching the fans the wrong thing' lol fuck you

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DeT2L9TV0AIJEgA.jpg:small

rizzo was already out. diaz was not near the plate. did rizzo have a clear path to the plate (even if he weren't already out)? i will say yes. maybe he had no intention of 'hurting' diaz; a better way to do that is not to slide at his legs. he made a choice to go out of his way to hit diaz, which ten years ago would have been fine; now, it is not.

maybe tonight gregory polanco will, in the process of grounding out, slide into rizzo's knees or spike his achilles at first. it'll be cool, because he's just trying to break up the play.

and on the *other* 'playing baseball the right way' tip, this took place with the cubs up 5-0 in the eighth inning of a game in which the pirates managed two hits.

they were up 3-0 when it happened, this play led to it being 5-0

did the umps say anything about why they didn't call it an illegal slide?

ah, ok

Both the #Cubs and Pirates have been told by league that Rizzo should've been called for interference on his slide at home. That differs from the umpire's call on the field as well as the video review

— Carrie Muskat (@CarrieMuskat) May 29, 2018

curious about exactly who made this determination

that's not Joe Torre's territory, is it

The rule doesn't say that the runner must avoid the catcher if there's a clear path to home plate. The runner can choose his path as long as he can reach the plate and doesn't deviate from that path to go after the catcher.

He's also supposed to finish his slide (i.e be on the ground) before making contact with the catcher, in the photo above Rizzo's knees are a few inches above the ground. He could have been called out for that, but it's close.

The rule is supposed to protect catchers, not turn baseball into a zero contact sport. The rules (including the Utley rule) still leave plenty of room for breaking up plays.

there are no circumstances, barring a rundown, in which rizzo's natural path to the plate would involve being that far inside the baseline.

i did not say that baseball should be a zero-contact sport. if diaz had been standing on home plate, then go ahead and slide into him. diaz was not, and rizzo deliberately altered his course to hit him -- and i don't care that had his slide continued he could still have touched the plate.

in what way is this different than had rizzo just grabbed diaz's arm, or did an a-rod slap? other than being more likely to cause injury, i mean. it's an accident of history that catchers and middle infielders have long been considered fair game for this stuff when, say, first basemen are not. the recent rule changes have attempted to rectify that, making this slide illegal no matter how many armchair macho men complain about the wussification of the game

Blocking the plate isn't really the issue though. If the runner can reach home and doesn't deviate his path to go after the catcher, it can be a legal slide. It doesn't matter whether there is another path that might avoid the catcher or a shorter path or whatever.

There's always going to be more leeway in defining the "baseline" for slides into home, not least because you can slide through home. If you need to slide and stay on the base (if you're hoping to be called safe), like at second or third then you have less room to deviate and can't justify sliding into the fielder if he's not in contact with the base.

Plays usually end at first base, so there's no reason to make contact with a first baseman. You can also run through first, so it's really not comparable. It's not the same as a fielder trying to turn a double play at second, where the play is continuing while the runner is sliding. The same thing can happen at home.

i'm always curious about things that AREN'T considered unsportsmanlike ... like the hidden ball trick doesn't seem sportsmanlike or "the right way to play the game" but no one ever gets that mad when it happens, at least not to the point of retribution. pitch framing can border on cheating but it's considered a skill instead of something that will get you plunked. is it because good pitch framing and the hidden ball trick are just inherently cool?

hidden ball and pitch framing are neither attached to any superstition that i know of nor are they considered disrespectful of your opponent as far as i know, and it seems like all of the unwritten rules are one (don't talk about a no-hitter, don't step on the mound) or the other (don't bunt during a no-hitter, don't admire your home run, don't enjoy playing baseball). kinda surprised the defensive shift didn't get dangerously close to breaking axiom #2 but i guess you can't plunk the entire infield out of spite.

"don't enjoy playing baseball" lol

i think that mainly players don't want to feel embarrassed. pitch framing isn't really directed at your opponent so much as at the umpire; an ideal umpire shouldn't even care where the catcher's glove is.

as to why stealing signs is bad and the hidden-ball trick is good, i have no explanation

i'd almost argue the unwritten rule is "don't get caught by the hidden ball trick"

Former third baseman Matt Williams used a different technique. On more than one occasion, he asked the runner to step off the base so that Williams could sweep the dirt off it, then tagged out the runner when the runner complied.[4] This worked twice.[5][1]

lmao

In the minor leagues, in 1987 catcher Dave Bresnahan of the Williamsport Bills pulled an unusual hidden ball trick against the Reading Phillies in the Eastern League. With a runner on third base, Bresnahan switched catcher's mitts and put on a glove in which he had secreted a peeled potato. When the pitch came in, Bresnahan fired the white potato down the third-base line, enticing the runner to sprint home. Bresnahan then tagged the runner with the baseball which he kept in his mitt. The umpire awarded the runner home plate for Bresnahan's deception. Bresnahan was banned from the league for the incident, but the fans of the Bills loved the play and the team eventually retired Bresnahan's number.[19][20]

15 years ago i played in an adult wood-bat league -- my team was all the leftovers who weren't on or picked up by an established team, and we lost every single game. and i broke a lot of bats, but not in a fun way -- they just kind of splintered instead of blowing up like the big leaguers' do.

but i did pull off the hidden-ball trick as a first baseman. and since i am a sad old man i will bring it up every time it's mentioned on this borad

xp. that's amazing

lol

Baseball's biggest problem isn't strikeouts or analytics or pace of play.

It's curmudgeonly broadcasters that piss on the current game and players. You know what's a bad way to sell a product to young fans? Screaming "get off my lawn!" every night. pic.twitter.com/GhnT3TdXeu

— Joe Giglio (@JoeGiglioSports) July 29, 2018

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/24329670/jayson-werth-rails-super-nerds-killing-game

I think it’s at least a little bit fair to be disgruntled at some nerd telling you where to hit the baseball

He's not even a lefty... just field your position bruh

I hope people start bunting on him more

Ohtani got a bunt hit in the 1st inning a couple games ago and I still think about it

redasses will redass at any available opportunity (especially if calling their opponents pussies will obfuscate themselves sucking)

I was on Gerrit Cole's side over Josh Naylor's silliness a couple of years ago, but he's got nothing to complain about over Rafael Devers. (Well, technically not true--Devers has now hit eight HR off him, he's right to complain about that.)

Was Cole complaining? I didn’t see that.

Seems he was initially upset with Devers but calmed down later.

https://nesn.com/2024/07/how-yankees-gerrit-cole-reacted-to-rafael-devers-big-bat-flip/

(One story--I've seen it reported a few places.)

I didn’t see the stare but I did see the comments and fair enough

Oh ok I didn’t realise this part of the context cos I didn’t watch the game on TV

Rafael Devers taunted Alex Verdugo after his long home run. Most of the Red Sox bench was looking at Verdugo in left field. Boston didn't appreciate Verdugo's bat flip and slow trot.

— Bryan Hoch ⚾️ (@BryanHoch) July 6, 2024

Not that I follow the Red Sox that closely, but Devers has always struck me as a quiet, underrated guy who just plays.

He is! He’s very happy to hit his home runs and go, and quiet to the point he’s been prodded to step up as a leader in the clubhouse because he’s so reticent. That’s why his behaviour was puzzling to me!

Cesar Valdez makes a glove flip strikeout.

The benches were emptied in LIDOM between Licey and Toros. pic.twitter.com/5xA5639i4k

— Francys Romero (@francysromeroFR) October 24, 2024

I can’t wait till that comes to the major leagues, bench clearing brawls constantly. Major League Basebrawl

love it. the audacity.

Red Sox announcer is mad at Jazz for taking a walk while up 7-1 and then stealing a base. I will always support piling on. No reason to hurt one’s stats pretending to be a “gentleman” or something.

Will Flemming has been pure trash for a while now. Shocked he didn’t manage to fit in a comment about Jazz not being a gritty lunchpail guy in his rant about him not playing the game the white right way.

I get this attitude in timed sports where comebacks in the last few minutes are impossible without things happening which have literally never happened in the history of the sport. 6-run innings are obviously rare, but they do happen!

Happened like twice in the last two weeks! It happens all the time!

also it's dumb to complain about stat-padding in baseball, there's no equivalent say to Kobe chucking up 50 shots a game so no one else can even get into double digits

I get this attitude in timed sports where comebacks in the last few minutes are impossible without things happening which have literally never happened in the history of the sport. 6-run innings are obviously rare, but they do happen!

They’re not that rare, the Reds smashed the Giants in a game last week and there have been several this season already

must not be much of a Sox fan if the Mother's Day Miracle slipped his mind

jazz is about the bases that are *not* stolen

Seriously? Shades of nonsense thrown at Griffey Jr.

"It's not (a rule)," Eddings said (via MLB.com). "I guess it's a little unwritten rule. They can't wear (their caps) backwards like a catcher. If it's a distraction, like anything on the field, like a glove or something, and someone makes you aware of it, then you kind of address that."

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/doug-eddings-umpire-cardinals-oliver-marmol-ejected-hancel-rincon/

cracker-ass jackass

You know who else wore his hat at a jaunty angle, Mr. Umpire? Fred Astaire, that's who.

https://i.postimg.cc/NF6DH9CV/fred.jpg

Acuna/Wheeler...just watched the clip: I didn't think Acuna engaged in all that much celebration, but I did like Wheeler's postgame comment (paraphrase): "Our guy here who hits 50 just rounds the bases."

I distinctly remember Dontrelle wearing his cap askew and no one ever having an issue with it.

That guy on BOS who was blind in one eye did the same

https://platform.coveringthecorner.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/69/chorus/imported_assets/10947/1f9db4f4_medium.jpg

Acuña Jr just hit a game-tying home run and the boos are coming through impressively on the broadcast lol

Fun commentary from Phillies crew on this one

“We’ll now turn our attention to this To Kill A Mockingbird matchup” (Harper v Lee).

“They’re throwing Acuña a lot of heat, but he hits heat really well, high heat very well recently and high in the zone too…” (Acuña hits a nuke as forecast, they spend the rest of the inning saying the scouting report matters, but so too does what the guy has been doing lately).

“Here’s Jhoan Duran, 30/32 in save situations, almost underrated…but the tie game has been a different story, opponents have a .393 average against him”
(Duran gives up a double and an rbi in short order, only one out in the inning).

He luxuriated in those boos.
I knew if I cursed at the Braves long enough today they'd score some runs to shut me up.

MLB tells veteran umpire he went too far by policing a rookie’s tilted cap: Sources

Umpires operate with broad discretion if they believe a player’s actions are distracting, but according to two people briefed on the matter who were granted anonymity because they are not authorized to speak publicly, the league viewed Doug Eddings’ admonishment of Cardinals reliever Hancel Rincon as going too far.

(Athletic article I can't access.)

Someone on the Braves is getting drilled next series they have with Philly - Acuna absolutely trolling the fans with that little dance before rounding third was hilarious.

Absolutely -- if I did sports betting, I'd put money on Acuña getting plunked tomorrow (the Philly series is a 4-game wraparound).

isn't that a standard acuna celebration? he always does that

Meaning the Wheeler HR? I didn't think it was that bad at all, but Wheeler's comment still made me laugh.

isn't that a standard acuna celebration? he always does that

However, he’s black.

His HR trots in PHI this weekend have been even slower than usual, and after his game-tying homer yesterday he came out of the dugout for a curtain call to soak up even more boos.

Nobody will believe me but the slow drawn out nature of that AB and the commentators mounting anxiety about it made it near certain to me that he was going to pop off…seems like a guy that can meet the moment

I don't know anything about Zack Wheeler the person, and I don't want to sound naive, but honestly, I think his comment was a function of having given up a monstrous 450-ft. HR, not race. Pitchers are a little sensitive when it comes to that.

Eh it might be unconscious on his part - I don’t dislike Wheeler either - but the whole “playing the game the right way/fuck a showboater” ethos is very much tinged with that, no? Thought it was notable the Phillies team I watched yesterday observed Acuña stretch his arms out running the bases in celebration and said fairly plainly “I don’t get why people have a problem with him doing this, it’s good for the rivalry. It’s good for the game!”

To my mind it also just sucks as an opinion given how much Harper’s own theatrics (which I am not using as a pejorative term!) are celebrated by his own team, also a guy that loves to meet the moment and rub salt in it.

zach wheeler, who doesnt touch the pitching rubber?

“I don’t get why people have a problem with him doing this, it’s good for the rivalry. It’s good for the game!”

That's why I enjoyed Wheeler's comment--it just upped the whole thing another notch. In the context of the back-and-forth and a guy who'd just been hammered, I thought it was dryly funny.

(And yes--he mentioned Schwarber, but artfully--or cluelessly--sidestepped Harper.)

Which is funny as the former MVP, right fielder who usually grabs a few bags and has never won a World Series would seem a more obvious comparison

(But then he doesn't get to say "Our guy hits 50..."!)

12-K complete game and plunked Austin Riley, I’d say mission accomplished Phillies

I'm happy enough with a series split on the road and a clinch of the season series. (I'll see myself to the reg. season thread.)

12-K complete game and plunked Austin Riley, I’d say mission accomplished Phillies

Why, did they win the WS or something?