Jack Morris Pitching to the Score, David Eckstein Doing All the Little Things: The Baseball Intangibles Thread

Sounds like a number of us have lots of thoughts on this...I'm at work right now, so won't be able to post till later. Intangibles = grit, character, momentum, choking, leadership, mystique, a million things. Only request: no one knows the absolute truth about any of these things (or even if they exist), so try to refrain from dismissing this or that as ridiculous.

Pitching to the score was proven to not be a Thing when people were arguing abt jack morris in particular iirc. t this point w the amount of money riding on every strikeout and every outcome being quantified and the competitive motors of the fellas doing the work certainly means it’s not a Thing now

no one knows the absolute truth about any of these things

Is that the footnote to the WAR calc revision log?

I find this really interesting cos although it’s unscientific in many senses (I guess depending on the weight you apply to studies of group dynamics and so on), and largely unquantifiable, there’s a lot that makes sense.

Most baseball books I’ve read have alluded to this in some sense. One I read (and strongly recommend for anyone vaguely interested in baseball or other people) is Joan Ryan’s Intangibles. I wrote a bit about it here.

All hitters will tell you when you step to the plate that you need to know what you’re doing. You can’t make a decision on whether you’re going to hit or take that pitch when you’re in the box, it’s far too late at that point. You have to have the confidence to see a ball coming at you at 100mph and to know you can hit it. Confidence is built through practice in the cages, coming up through the minors and through endless grinding. But what sets apart a successful hitter in a high leverage situation from the same hitter in a meaningless late summer game? Why do you sometimes see great hitters sit frozen as a 90mph meatball floats by over the heart of the plate? They haven’t forgotten how to do their job, but something has gone wrong.

This post is probably going to be really sloppy and unstructured so bear with.

Willie Mays talked about being a captain on the Giants:

“In 1962, they made me captain. I positioned the outfielders, the infielders, I’d call pitches from centerfield — he didn’t have to take them but I wanted him throw a pitch I thought I could catch. You had to get 25 guys playing together even though nine or ten don’t play much at all and it feels bad. I’d go to the manager and say, ‘I want this guy to play because he needs to feel part of the team.’ The guy would go 9 for 10 and he’d go sit down and feel like a part of the team. When guys had problems at home, they’d come to me and I’d call their wives. I knew the wives better than I knew the players!’’

(xpost) Definitely--pretty conclusive proof on that one.

gyac, you should look into HA Dorfman if you haven't already, pretty fascinating character.

I do know who that is, the SI piece about Halladay (incredible, saddening read) covers him a bit. But I hadn’t ever followed that thread up so I appreciate your reminder and I will now. I’m reading the Ted Williams book about hitting which may or may not overlap a bit here.

But then Brandy gave him a book, The Mental ABCs of Pitching, by Harvey Dorfman. (Brandy, through Davis, declined to be interviewed for this story.) It reminded Little Roy of how he had been taught to think as a boy. He devoured it and took notes in a journal. Eventually he befriended the author and handed out the book to his teammates.

I used to argue about this stuff with Morbius all the time. He thought it was all fictional: Kershaw didn't have a World Series problem, the mystique of, say, a Willie Stargell was either meaningless or didn't exist at all, momentum was tomorrow's starting pitcher, etc., etc.

When it comes to choking--I'll post about all these related topices piecemeal--I think it exists until it doesn't, which is not the same as saying it doesn't exist. Kershaw, Verlander, Price, they all went through stretches where I think big-game pressure weighed on them, which caused them to pitch poorly, which upped the pressure next time, which started the cycle all over again. Very human: "God no, not this again." I think it's a mistake to think of "clutch" and "choking" as opposites, that if clutch isn't a repeatable skill then choking must not exist either. To me it's more like: we don't believe in clutch because we don't believe athletes magically defy human nature and become superhuman at will, so why would we think they're invulnerable to the very human "God no, not this again" problem?

But Kershaw's had a few good post-season starts scattered around, Verlander pitched well in G5 last year, and Price should have, I believe, been the WS MVP in 2018. Dave Winfield got the go-ahead hit in extra innings in the deciding game of the '92 Series after an abysmal post-season stretch. It's real until it isn't.

I played Strat-o-matic baseball once and briefly was interested in playing MLB Clix.

You may be interested in the MLB Clix Intangibles card circa 2005:

https://i.imgur.com/wkPlgQO.jpeg

Player gets a +1 bat

I played APBA in the '70s--that's really interesting that they would have added those last couple.

You can't reduce D&D characters to their stats, let alone human athletes.

"Clubhouse Cancer," aka the Josh Donaldson Rule: when this player clicks up, everyone else clicks down (and vice versa).

I post this for its relevancy, not because I'm agreeing or disagreeing.

https://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2012/1/22/2725383/an-appreciation-of-former-st-louis-cardinals-shortstop-david

I take it as my duty to note a lot of the kershaw post-season choke artist narrative was cemented by the 2017 astros-dodgers post season before ya know you, that whole thing came out.

Didn't it have more to do with a couple of meltdowns vs. the Cardinals years before that?

CK did OK against Houston, albeit not particularly great, and he had a slightly lower ERA than what he has over his current postseason career.

He had a 1.19 era at dodger stadium (in a win) and an 11.52 era at signstealing stadium (obvious loss). Not saying his post season stats are great, but that was the first World Series he pitched in and that loss was a big full stop on the “kershaw can’t pitch the big game” narrative.

Another 4 innings of relief giving 0 run ball in game 7 after Darvish had to be pulled after 1.2 innings of being lit up too

https://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pitchinglogs.php?p=kershcl01&y=2017

http://i.postimg.cc/cH2KDk6h/IMG-4059.png

I played Strat-o-matic baseball once and briefly was interested in playing MLB Clix.`

― felicity, Thursday, October 5, 2023 6:02 PM (two hours ago)

I remember you trying to get me into Clix lol!

Is there an online version for #lazies?

I like the idea of non-quantifiable sneaky/dirty player stats. Like, how do you quantify the value of a player who tries to steal signs when they reach base? A baserunner that has a history of going into the ankles of the player covering 2nd during a double play.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2023/10/04/trea-turner-ovation-phillies/

Turner was hitting .235 with 10 home runs, 34 RBI and 21 stolen bases in 107 games through Aug. 3. In 48 regular season games after the standing ovation, he hit .337 with 16 home runs, 42 RBI and nine steals to go with a 1.037 OPS, helping the Phillies secure the NL’s top wild card.

Yes, loved that story

Kershaw choking was a thing long before 2017. His postseason stats are far worse than his regular season stats, that's a fact and it's not skewed by having a small sample size. 194 IP is a reugular season's worth of innings.

The pitching lines don't tell the full story. There were games when he was cruising and simply fell apart. The Matt Adams HR is the one I always remember. A 2-0 lead in the late innings vs the Cards turned into a 3-2 deficit on one swing. Check it on YouTube if you've never seen it, or haven't seen it in a while. Kershaw threw an unfathomably bad pitch, the biggest meatball of a curve that you've ever seem in your life. Kershaw had only given up one HR off his curve to a LHB in his *career* to that point. This wasn't a great pitcher facing tougher competition in the playoffs, this was Matt Adams, who had a .619 OPS in his career vs LHPs. Kershaw simply made one of the worst pitches of his career at the worst possible moment. And he did this in many other games, over 10+ years.

Otm he's also been awful in a number of series since 2017. Not all great pitchers are great in the postseason, it happens.

As a more general comment for this thread, there's a chapter in Moneyball where they go through a list of prospects and eliminate them one by one because of their makeup. Billy Beane asks about a high school pitcher who was recruited at a college. He got invited to a party and got all offended at the drinking he saw there, due to his Christian beliefs. So he decided he wasn't going to attend college after all. Beane said something sarcastic like "he'll fit in great with pro ballplayers, won't he?", and they immediately cross that player of their list.

Part of this elimination process was about minimizing risk, because the A's as a small market franchise, couldn't afford to have their prospects not pan out. But this wasn't a discussion about intangibles. If a player couldn't fit in for whatever reason, then it would be more difficult to develop and coach him. It gets back to what Willie Mays was quoted saying above. Players who don't fit in with the team don't contribute. These are skills, if a high schooler has has "coachability", if he's already great but takes advice from everyone around him in order to improve, then that's a skill, not an intangible.

Yeah I'm saying the choking thing was really cemented (definitely for Kershaw! quote after his 2017 appearance "Maybe one of these days I won't fail") by that series which turned out in retrospect to be severely tainted. This really irked me after the astros scandal was revealed, as he was genuinely pitching like prime, MVP Kershaw in the NLCS and the two home game of the world series that year. To thenget lit up due to cheating (without know that was the case) has to be a crushing psychological blow after you feel you've turned a corner.

Also that large sample size: a 4.22 era is not what you expect of an elite pitcher, but the fact that he has kept that ERA under league average (even if marginally) with 194IP and so many early struggle... Yeah he's been awful in some, but he's been prime in others, and it's all balanced out to a league average. As a fan, it was a heartwarming site to see him celebrating the 2020 title after pitching two winning games in that series. You could see the weight lift off

Or rather I should say, in reference to my previous post, that players who don't fit in with the team don't contribute to the best of their ability.

Is "fitting in" quantifiable? Maybe. We all read the stories about disfunction in SD, CHW, and LAA clubhouses this year. But even if it's a quarter of a win per player, multiplied over the entire team, then it could be the difference between winning 95 games and winning the division, and winning 89 and not making the playoffs.

Obviously this isn't to say that every player needs to fit in. Reggie Jackson, Jeff Kent, Barry Bonds, etc. did OK for themselves. But for the average player (most players are close to average, not superstars) I think it does matter.

I think one story that always stood out to me was something that happened in 2004 with the cubs, in that disappointing follow-up season to their even more disappointing postseason meltdown in 2003. There was these supposed moment when Kerry Wood smashed Sammy Sosa's boombox with a baseball bat. It made me wonder just what the chemistry was on that team over the previous several seasons, even the ones that were more successful. The way they acted when the bartman moment happened just felt like a team that was highly dysfunctional and not ready for prime time. Which is kind of why despite the pain of that, when they won in 2016 with a more homegrown team it felt like it was worth the wait.

Very relevant quote from Ball Four:

There was a rumor abroad in the land that the Astros were going to get Richie Allen from the Phillies and some of the Astros were against it. They said he’s a bad guy to have on a ballclub. Humph. I wonder what the Astros would give to have him come to bat just 15 times for us this season. It might mean a pennant. If I could get Allen I’d grab him and tell everybody that he marches to a different drummer and that there are rules for him and different rules for everybody else. I mean what’s the good of a .220 hitter who obeys the curfew? Richie Allen doesn’t obey the rules, hits 35 home runs and knocks in over 100. I’ll take him.

Dick Allen was far from an average player, so this is in line with NoTime's post.

(The more common view I've seen the last few years was that Allen's supposed difficulty was wildly overstated because of racism.)

Obviously this isn't to say that every player needs to fit in. Reggie Jackson, Jeff Kent, Barry Bonds, etc. did OK for themselves. But for the average player (most players are close to average, not superstars) I think it does matter.

Kent recalled a time one of his early Giants teammates, Orel Hershiser, drilled Álex Rodríguez with a pitch as unspoken retaliation for A-Rod wiping out Kent a day earlier.

“It’s something that I can’t quantify for you,’’ Kent said. “It’s not a state. But it’s a pride. The old cliché is, ‘I’m in the foxhole with you.’ It’s just an emotional attachment. Does it lead to an extra hit? I don’t know. But it can lead to this:

“If Orel’s pitching, I might not ask the coach to give me the day off. I might not stay out late at night. I might say you know what? My buddy Orel’s pitching tomorrow so I need to go prepare. You may have a little more of an aggressive attitude that could lead to more success.”

Both Bonds and Kent speak with remarkable candor about their highly functional contempt for one another. Together, they help stomp out the notion that chemistry means being BFFs.

“Why do you care that Jeff Kent is over there looking at properties for his hunting place? Who gives a crap?” Bonds says now. “When it came to game time, what name would you want on the back of the uniform of the guy playing second base? I want Jeff Kent.”

I think one story that always stood out to me was something that happened in 2004 with the cubs, in that disappointing follow-up season to their even more disappointing postseason meltdown in 2003. There was these supposed moment when Kerry Wood smashed Sammy Sosa's boombox with a baseball bat. It made me wonder just what the chemistry was on that team over the previous several seasons, even the ones that were more successful. The way they acted when the bartman moment happened just felt like a team that was highly dysfunctional and not ready for prime time. Which is kind of why despite the pain of that, when they won in 2016 with a more homegrown team it felt like it was worth the wait.

the intangibles of a nude Anthony Rizzo briefly canceled out by the black cat curse of Hector Rodon spraying aerosol shoe cleaner at his balls, the tiebreaker being the Heyward speech.

I was thinking about this very thread on the way to work this morning, and the post I initially actually came here to make was about Trevor Story. He’s been injured a lot the past two years which is one of those situations that happens, but NTBT’s post about guys feeling part of the team contributing applies here too, I think. He returned from injury and while his glove is elite, his bat isn’t there yet. But that’s not what I wanted to really talk about. It was about his influence on younger players off the field:

Encouraging Jarren Duran, who had an abysmal season last year and who started out in Triple A, to make the most of his natural athleticism, which paid off hugely for him this year*:

A conversation with injured teammate Trevor Story got him thinking about taking the extra base more often this season. Duran said he tries to put pressure on opposing outfielders knowing that even if they make a perfect throw, he still will likely have time to turn and get back to first base.

“At the beginning of the year, Trevor Story told me he’s going to have more hustle doubles than me,” Duran told reporters, per MassLive. “We all know he’s really fast and really good so I’m trying to capitalize on those hustle doubles before he gets back (in the second half of the season) and passes me up.

“He told me I need the head start so I’m trying to take full advantage before he gets back.”

Story views Mayer and the rest of Boston’s middle-infield prospects much the way Tulowitzki looked at him.

“It says a lot about (Tulowitzki),” said Story. “I can't be any more thankful to him for doing that for me. Some people look at it as a competition-type thing. You know, he's a shortstop, he's coming up to take your spot. He obviously had a different view on it. And I think that's the way it should be.

“These guys are a part of the organization, and they're gonna help us win at some point. I think that's a huge thing. And I want to embrace that, and I think Tulo showed me the way to do that.”

That play, in the rain, is burned into my brain - it came when there were still a lot of doubts about Casas and istr that Cora kind of peremptorily announced that Turner would start playing more first base. A real low point and I think not great from Cora. I could see Story being a manager some day.

Justin Turner needs to manage. He’d be great at it. Honestly seems to take everyone as they are and is viewed with so much respect by his teammates. And knows exactly how it is to struggle and fail, but how to win too.

Yeah Cora was like, JT is gonna play more 1B and then that lasted a (literal) day. But I remember that shot of him and learning that Story stepped up like that really made me think a lot of Story. It’s so easy to go, not my problem!

Whatever Tulowitzki had in Colorado, he had, to all appearances, lost it by the time he got to Toronto. He made it very clear right from the outset that he didn't want to be here. I don't know what went on in the clubhouse, but he struck me as a non-stop complainer, often injured, definitely past his prime (maybe even a creation of his home park--his mediocre numbers in Toronto weren't wildly out of line with his road numbers before the trade).

With some players, I imagine they weren't one type of person in every situation but different people at different points in their careers.

Yeah I can’t speak to any of that but your concluding point is fair.

maybe related to the thread, you wonder if playing in Denver causes players to lose their confidence when playing on the road, never admitting it but maybe privately wondering if they themselves are a Coors Field creation, which leads to even more of an extreme split, or just a major decline upon leaving the team. Maybe that's what happened w/Tulo. It didn't happen w/Walker, who over two years played the equivalent of one season w/St Louis and was really, really good. and Galarraga had a phenomenal season w/Atlanta after leaving Denver.

do denver pitchers get better after leaving denver? has that been proven? is it still a thing after the humidor?

Surely being a shortstop in the land of easy hitting means you’d have to be pretty good to thrive there

Definite topic for extensive research, what happens to players after they leave Colorado. (I'm sure there's been some.) Arenado has made out fine, though predictably there's been some offensive drop-off. Pitchers, too: I don't remember any notable cases of ex-Colorado pitchers turning into stars after leaving...Am I forgetting somebody? Ubaldo Jimenez had the one phenomenal year in Colorado and never did much after that with Cleveland or Baltimore.

definitely there have been some pitchers who were good, signed with Denver, were terrible, and then returned to being good when they left. Mike Hampton and Darryl Kile come to mind.

Holliday was very good w/St Louis and briefly w/Oakland, but obviously didn't reach those MVP heights he did with the Rockies.

Vinny Castilla became an offensive star in Colorado, left for 4 seasons and became largely mediocre or terrible, came back and promptly led the NL in RBI.

A possible intangible that I didn't mention in the introductory post: is losing a game that involves a squandered lead and/or blown save worse on team morale than a regular loss? Especially if you lose a bunch of such games in a short time-frame. I've always believed that such losses are worse, but others take the a-loss-is-a-loss-is-a-loss view. I don't know if that's quantifiable, although you could probably study it with large enough sample of teams that go through that.

I think "momentum" as it were doesn't really exist in baseball. Tough losses matter more to fans than the athletes, and the fans are the only ones debating this stuff.

Take last year's World Series: Astros blew the 5-0 lead in G1 with Verlander on the mound, and lost. They came back and won G2. But they got blown out in G3 to go down 2-1. There was talk about the Phillies having the momentum, that the series wouldn't even go back to Houston. So what happened? The Astros no-hit the Phillies in G4. And they won the series in six.

Baseball isn't like football, it doesn't lend itself to these rah-rah, let's go smash them speeches. If you smash your head against a locker between innings and go to bat looking to crush the bejeezus out of the ball, you'll end up flailing away at the plate and looking stupid against offspeed pitches. Baseball isn't that kind of game. I think that's why there aren't many team meetings in baseball, unless things are going really bad and there's a noticeable lack of team focus and motivation. You have to keep emotions fairly in check, and shrug off losses quickly.
It's counterproductive to get hung up on a loss when even the best teams lose 60 times per year.

Who’s the kid the dodgers keep on payroll for mental healthcare reasons? A happier outcome of the Sal Fansano incident

Andrew Toles. That was a great example.

Andrew Toles. That was a great example.

It's a celebrated day every year

Tolesy was electric coming up too, seemed he had a real career in front of him. Sad but glad the Dodgers continue to do right by him 6 years on

obviously there's a lot of failure in baseball -- you wear down, you fall into a slump, you get babipped, whatever -- but being a pitcher who can no longer throw strikes seems like a special kind of hell. the yips will fuck you up, sometimes forever

Career minor leaguer John Mincone made this response re the mentality of 162 and where players and fans differ that I’ve seen made repeatedly, but rarely all in one place:

If professional athletes let the emotions of fans affect them daily, they wouldn’t have the mental capacity necessary to go out and play day in and day out despite struggling. There is a reason why some very good players flame out early in their careers and some fringy guys may stick around longer than you think. You’re taught early on in professional ball, some in college if they have the right coaching, once the street clothes come off and uni goes on, whatever is bothering you in your personal life goes with it for the next few hours while you compete.. when the uni comes off and street clothes go back on, you wash the game, good or bad, and get ready for the next one. Struggles, slumps, low points will always happen in professional sports. I’m not sure why fans would rather they have emotional messes who sit around and cry with them after losses.. they’re not your friends, they’re professional athletes. Good or bad days, they still have things to be sad and happy about, just like the rest of us. Being upset over them smiling isn’t it.

When he's right, he's right. This is a really really rough look after another despicable loss. When they say "read the room"... the players should be able to "read the ballpark" too. Look around, it's dead, and will only get worse if this shit keeps up. https://t.co/e12OetmlRT

— The 7 Line (@The7Line) June 3, 2024

Made me think of this, of course:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9Q0kp8CMFQ

The GM saying that is one thing, but fans can shove it imo

I've noticed that with fantasy sports too, so much vitriol towards specific players seems to happen only because they're underperforming in fantasy, can't remember who but there was one NFL player who said people were noticeably meaner towards professional athletes since fantasy sports really took off

but yeah we definitely put weird expectations on how these guys should *live their lives*, I mean when you're watching a game, especially a playoff game sometimes it's the only thing in the world that matters to you in that moment, but the next day your emotions on it have cooled quite a bit. I've been on teams myself and actually coach my son's soccer team now, it's the same thing, when you're playing you're only focused on the game, but after its over you go back to your life, idk maybe it's unreasonable to expect the pros to be different, in fact most of the stories you hear about guys who are constantly obsessing over the game are from people who flamed out early

I'm sure your last sentence is true, but there are also famous cases of great players who internalized every wasted AB and every poor pitch for days afterwards. Two prominent ones: Ted Williams and Tom Seaver (or at least for the first few years of his career--I think he acquired some equanimity as he got older).

And Cobb, of course...who may have been borderline psychotic.

there was one NFL player who said people were noticeably meaner towards professional athletes since fantasy sports really took off

All I can go by is general demeanour, but never-phased-by-anything counter-examples: Stan Musial (happy), Ernie Banks (happy), Greg Maddux (weirdly Zen-like).

edwin diaz was reported to have cried after one of his blown saves this year - that is, showed publicly that he cared.

of course, people came out of the woodwork to say that he should have 'manned up', real men don't cry etc. probably some of the same people who are approvingly liking that tweet, i'd bet

Reminded a bit of this from Joan Ryan’s amazing book about team chemistry:

“Clubhouse lawyers can do more friggin’ damage than anybody on a ball club,” Keith Hernandez told me. He played seventeen years in the major leagues, including on the 1986 World Series champion New York Mets. “Usually the clubhouse lawyer is someone who is dissatisfied himself. He’s not happy about how he’s being used, and he just can’t internalize it. He’s got to spread it like a weed, like a poison throughout the team. He needs to be traded as soon as possible.” The clubhouse lawyer is often a fading veteran riding the bench who pulls others into his bitch-fest. There’s always someone ready to be convinced that — yes! — he’s getting screwed, too. “That’s why you want character guys who won’t get sucked into the misery,” one coach said.

edwin diaz was reported to have cried after one of his blown saves this year - that is, showed publicly that he cared.

of course, people came out of the woodwork to say that he should have 'manned up', real men don't cry etc. probably some of the same people who are approvingly liking that tweet, i'd bet

“Sergio, he had his moments, sure,” Righetti said. “But here’s the thing: he’d come to you. You didn’t have to go to him. Some guys, if they get caught showing off out there, they get upset and embarrassed. They go backwards. You lose them. That wasn’t him. I never had to yell at him. It’s just, ‘C’mere, let’s go talk somewhere.'”

They had one of those talks on the mound in Game 3 of the 2010 NLDS at Atlanta. Romo replaced Jonathan Sánchez in the eighth inning with a runner on base and the Giants leading, 1-0. The two teams had split the first two games of the series. It was a pivotal moment and the most important appearance of Romo’s career. Troy Glaus had been announced as the pinch hitter to face Sánchez. After Bochy went to Romo, Braves manager Bobby Cox burned Glaus to get the left-handed matchup with Eric Hinske.

Hinske hit a towering, two-run home run.

“I went out there. I had to,” Righetti said. “He was crushed. You could see it all over his face. He thought he failed. I told him, ‘Hey, you’re gonna get the win. You’re not going to want the win, but you’re getting it.’ From then on, he never did that again.”

Even in 2012, when Romo gave up a walk-off home run in St. Louis to Kolten Wong as the Cardinals won Game 2 to tie the NLCS. The Giants went on to win the next three games. Romo didn’t allow another run the rest of the postseason.

“It didn’t affect him,” Righetti said. “He handled that well. And he had his signature moment (in 2012). But there were so many more moments. During our run, we were in a race every year. We didn’t have any margin for error. He was as dependable as it gets.

“Shoot, you look at his career, and he’s the best reliever I’ve had.”

I was looking over earlier posts in this thread, and an addendum to the detour on Kershaw's postseason ordeals. In his Kershaw fame-countdown entry, Posnanski has a list of how the best pitchers this century have fared in the postseason:

Randy Johnson, 7-9, 3.50 ERA (3-0 with 1.04 ERA in World Series)

Pedro Martinez, 6-4, 3.46 ERA

Justin Verlander, 17-12, 3.58 ERA (1-6 with 5.63 ERA in World Series)

Clayton Kershaw, 13-13, 4.49 ERA

Max Scherzer, 7-8, 3.78 ERA

Roger Clemens, 12-8, 3.75 ERA

Greg Maddux, 11-14, 3.27 ERA*

Zack Greinke, 4-6, 4.14 ERA (1.80 ERA without a decision in World Series)

Curt Schilling, 11-2, 2.23 ERA (4-1, 2.06 ERA in World Series)

Mike Mussina, 7-8, 3.42 ERA

Subtracting Schilling, who we will talk about in a minute, the overall postseason numbers for perhaps the nine best pitchers of the last 30 years: 84-82, 3.72 ERA in 1,430 innings...So, yes, Kershaw’s record is worse than any of the others. But it’s also marred by four absolutely calamitous innings where things just went very wrong (and relievers did not exactly bail him out). I mean, you can’t just erase those four bad innings, but if you could, his postseason ERA and general record would be right there with the rest of the group.

He also makes the point that Maddux gave up twenty-five unearned runs in the postseason (none of the others had more than 5), letting him off the hook to a degree.

Better note for gyac that he does mention Bumgarner:

"The exception is Schilling*, who is one of the greatest postseason pitchers ever and would be in the Hall of Fame if he wasn’t such a knucklehead.

*Of course, Madison Bumgarner has been incredible in the postseason, too, but he just couldn’t stay healthy and dominant long enough to be in this class."

That list is Smoltz erasure (15-4, 2.67 ERA over 209IP, NLCS MVP... and 4 saves!)

I agree. Also missing is Halladay, who, in a smaller sample, was great in the postseason. (No knock on Greinke, but I'd put Halladay and Smoltz ahead of him.) I think Joe eliminated a couple of guys who didn't support the point he wanted to make...

That’s cool but it wasn’t exactly what I was talking about.

I posted that in connection to discussion earlier in the thread, months ago--nothing to do with recent posting.

lol i can remember losing my first junior varsity basketball game when i was 13 or something and feeling *so* terrible about it on the bus ride home. partly because the coach was a dick, but mostly because i had fully internalized this sort of toxic fandom

high-level pro athletes are almost(?) pathologically competitive, or they wouldn't be where they are. in the NFL, you get the day after the game to mope if you want, then you generally have five more days to prepare for the next one. there's no time for moping in baseball

(that said, i don't think posting that photo after a loss was a wise move -- breaking your fans' illusions is rarely wise, no matter how dumbass they are)

I'd extend the football comparison to starting pitchers vs. position players (or frequently used relief pitchers); a starting pitcher, if he's vulnerable to negative thinking, has a few extra days to get inside his own head.

Yeah I’ve seen pitchers say that: you get lit up and you have to wait five days to turn the page. No wonder they’re the weirdest group of players.

field goal kickers maybe have it the worst there, idk if I can think of another position where one bad play at the worst possible time can ruin an entire career

I've noticed that with fantasy sports too, so much vitriol towards specific players seems to happen only because they're underperforming in fantasy, can't remember who but there was one NFL player who said people were noticeably meaner towards professional athletes since fantasy sports really took off

At first I thought you were talking about Tommy Pham but c.f Alex Avila firing up Scherzer with a bad fantasy trade. So that, too is a positive force that can be channeled productively.

Interesting roster move from the Red Sox today:

The #RedSox today placed RHP Chris Martin on the 15-Day Injured List, retroactive to June 2, due to anxiety.

To fill his spot on the active roster, the club recalled RHP Zack Kelly from Triple-A Worcester.

— Red Sox (@RedSox) June 5, 2024

I remember playing the game, going 0-for-4, going to the apartment, turning on the TV at midnight, watching the game again. I was gonna go 0-for-4 again and then in the morning, watch the game again and go 0-for-4 again. I feel like at that time, at that moment, the family suffered. It suffered a lot. As you guys know, Camila is the daughter of divorced parents. Probably early in my career, I didn't help my family to be as strong as it should be because there were a lot of demons, a lot of stuff going on in between the lines and in the clubhouse and out of baseball. That's why I tip her mom, Nilda, because she did an outstanding job after we separated. We got a great daughter, a daughter that's gonna kill it in the world because she's very strong. She has strong parents. We've been very honest about our situation, what we need to do for her to succeed, you know what l'm saying? We've been going through this for a while here as far as guys stepping up and being open about it.

He's gonna be okay. Whenever he's ready, he's ready, right? We don't know if it's short-term, long-term. We never know. We don't know about this. But I think with the team that's around, it's gonna surround him, and he's gonna be OK.

Regarding Chris Martin, several players (Jarren Duran in particular) have talked about how helpful Kenley Jansen has been in discussing his struggles with mental health.

Posnanski has a new silly stat, very pertinent to this thread: "the Eckstein" (suggested by a British reader).

The Eckstein! Brilliant Reader Alan took the long train ride to the Waterstones book signing--he brought with him my entire catalog of books, going all the way back to The Good Stuf--and he suggested a new statistic for the PosCast/JoeBlogs: The Eckstein.

To get an Eckstein, a player needs: 12 hit-by-pitches and 12 sacrifice bunts in a season.

This was something that gritty David Eckstein did three times in his remarkable career. This is the most Ecksteins of the Division Era (since 1969):

David Eckstein (3 times)

Ron Hunt (2 times)

Nine other players (1 time)

The last person to Eckstein was Nyjer Morgan, who did the deed in 2011, when he was hit by 14 pitches and successfully sacrificed 15 times. Juan Pierre Ecksteined the year before--they are the only two players to do it since Eck himself.

Is it possible? Yes, absolutely. The last two years, Arizona’s Geraldo Perdomo had the requisite 12 sac hits--he just needed to lean into a few more pitches. Leonys Martin in 2013 had eight hit-by pitches and 12 sacrifice hits.

I don’t love sacrifice hits, and I don’t love hit-by-pitches, and yet I dream of a day when we will again see an Eckstein.

Mariners posted this graphic about hbps the other day

That indeed left a mark. pic.twitter.com/nK5slT5wcW

— Seattle Mariners (@Mariners) June 8, 2024

The Athletic actually posted a series of articles today about their annual player survey and one of the questions was about criticisms of today’s game from former players that annoyed them:

1. Today’s hitters venting that former players don’t respect how difficult it is to hit modern pitching

2. Today’s pitchers venting that former players say modern pitchers do not know how to pitch and need to throw more strikes

Let’s start with the hitters:

“(People say) guys don’t care about putting the ball in play,” one National League infielder said. “Do you watch the (old) games on TV? The skill level of the game is (so much better now). The infielders are great. They have arm strength. Those pitchers (back in the day) stink. One of our Triple-A guys would have been like the best closer in baseball 15 years ago.”

Added a second National League infielder: “I don’t think former players appreciate how difficult hitting is now in today’s game. Not that it wasn’t hard back then, and not to discredit them. But it’s different. The state of the game is different.”

Said a third National League player: “We also have to face 100 mph every night.”

Many hitters were clearly of the belief that former players don’t understand how hard modern pitchers throw, how pervasive 100 mph fastballs have become, and how new technology has resulted in nasty breaking balls.

“They had three guys in the league who threw 95 and now the first guy in from the bullpen throws 100,” said a National League infielder.

Added another National League outfielder: “Every generation has unique things about it. … You can take a superstar of any generation and put them in a (different) generation and they’re going to figure out a way to do it. But obviously, we’ve seen a boom in velocity and a boom in certain stuff. … Comparing eras, it’s never apples to apples.”

Added another player: “I think the (most) irritating thing is, like, when some guy swings at a pitch in the dirt or chases a pitch, and they’re like, you know, ‘What was he looking for?’ Like, it’s a hard game. Sometimes … you see something and (the ball) does something different.”

Or as An American League player put it: “Do you think Babe Ruth ever saw a slider?”

One National League infielder said there was a clear “lack of respect for difference in pitching quality.”

Of course, today’s pitchers were also clearly vexed by criticism about not going deep into games, not throwing strikes, or not understanding the art of pitching. Among the responses:

“The zone has never been close to this small,” a National League pitcher said. “You can’t pitch up and can’t pitch in. You watch older guys’ 12- to 15-strikeout games, and it’s insane the calls they got.”

Said an American League starter: “You hear a lot of former starting pitchers say, ‘We used to go eight innings, nine innings every five days.’ I get it. I would love to do that. But the game has changed. There’s more strategy attached to building a pretty solid bullpen that is going to seal you the opportunity for a win. It’s a different strategy.”

Added a second National League pitcher: “The old guys just (say), ‘Just throw strikes.’ They had expanded strike zones. And, ‘Guys are walking too much, striking out too much.’ Well, it’s pretty hard in today’s game as far as velo and hitters striking out — the pitchers are just good now.”

“’Just throw strikes,’” a National League reliever mused. “Their strike zone was three times the size.”

Or, as another American League pitcher put it: “Just someone saying, ‘Throw strikes,’ like it’s automatic. Like yeah, no s—.”

Another common theme in the generational divide between today and yesterday was the use and presence of analytics. One player specifically mentioned the dismissal of plyo balls and other technology. One NL pitcher said some former players “view the game through a lens that’s archaic at this point.”

“There’s no malice behind it,” the pitcher said. “But (there’s) no attempt to understand training methods and analytics that exist today that didn’t exist back then.”

Not surprisingly, other responses will sound familiar to any longtime baseball fan:

“Complaining about pimping home runs.”

“The bat flips.”

“We’re having too much fun.”

“I think a lot of them say some guys don’t run hard. I think guys are a little bit better at managing their bodies.”

As with any cross-section of society, there was no unanimity in the responses.

One American League player was flummoxed that former players would even consider critiquing today’s players.

“I don’t even know what they would criticize,” he said. “I think the game is better.”

But other players were more forgiving.

“I kind of like some of the criticisms,” one National League infielder said. “I think I like some of them too much to say anything.”

Added another player in his early 30s:

“I agree with most of them,” he said. “The game is soft now.”

One more thing about the Eckstein. I think it's funny--funny-charming, not to be taken seriously--because the whole premise of this thread is that it's about all the things that can't be quantified but win games, and this is an attempt to quantify something.

Ron Hunt was something else--got hit 50 times one season, still a modern-day record.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/huntro01.shtml

Sometimes there is crying in baseball.

Wilyer Abreu was really emotional after that homer.

Hope everything is alright.

Jason Varitek gave him a big hug before he went back on the field pic.twitter.com/XKFh3MM1C3

— Tyler Milliken ⚾️ (@tylermilliken_) August 4, 2024

Trying to wrack my brain for another example, and all I could come up with--and this isn't what you mean--is Paul Molitor visibly in tears after the big melee broke up after Carter's HR in the '92 Series. It wasn't personal tragedy, but he had had an up-and-down career to that point--injuries, a drug problem--and came here to win a Series. Which he did, and he was quite overcome.

'93 Series, I mean...my memory is embellishing a bit. Looked at it again--go to 2:58:20--and it's more like Molitor's on the verge of tears than actually crying. Anyway, thrill-of-victory tears are probably pretty common; personal-tragedy tears, I don't know.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1E8UIAqW4Y

My feeling is that football players are almost expected to play through personal tragedy and it gets played up on TV all the time, the person who died would have wanted them to play, etc.

In baseball, I think this stuff rarely gets talked about, the manager would just give the guy a day off and it wouldn't be questioned.

Baseball has paternity leave now (this didn't exist when I was growing up) and why not? The season isn't going to be won or lost based on missing a few games mid-season (especially not with 12-team playoff brackets), so just let these guys be with their families. Same goes for family emergencies, like Freddie Freeman's situation. If he was a football player, I think we'd be hearing about how he "missed practice on Thursday" but would be ready come Sunday. That's not a criticism really (well, maybe it is ...), it's just a different sport, and a different mentality. Another example (not a tragedy exactly): Tom Brady's divorce a few years back. He was away from the team (in preseason) and everyone basically knew why but couldn't talk about it, and everyone just wanted to know whether he'd really be ready for the start of the season. Give the guy some space, ffs.

Yeah hear you re space. I think it’s uncomfortable to see people crying in public but if the player has said they want to do it, manager can’t exactly tell them not to? There was a minor controversy last year when Garrett Whitlock, whose younger brother drowned in a terrible accident, went on bereavement leave and then came back and pitched immediately. Because the bullpen was so tapped, there was some concern that he’d been rushed back, but per Whitlock himself, that wasn’t the case at all.

On Garrett Whitlock's emotional return just a week after his brother's tragic death:https://t.co/5ApNZ85NTr

— Chris Cotillo (@ChrisCotillo) September 11, 2023

Whitlock said pitching for the first time since his brother’s death served as a “good distraction,” as he was able to focus on individual hitters and pitches instead of the tough times his family are going through. After Whitlock completed his second inning of work, Cora and other members of the Red Sox greeted him with hugs in the home dugout.

Sorry, this'll be behind a paywall, but: "In times of heartache, athletes often cope by doing what they do best: playing"

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5683038/2024/08/06/athletes-playing-in-tragedy-wilyer-abreu-freddie-freeman-chris-paul/

Devers hitting Cole well is well known, but for the past month Devers has been in a slump like most of the Red Sox lineup. He’s been playing through an inflamed left shoulder since the beginning of the season and he banged up his right shoulder in July and it’s finally wearing on him. Striking out a lot, power outage, looking a bit lost.

First AB this game, Cole hits him. Assumed this was unintentional. Next AB, Yankees lead 1-0 in the top of the fourth, one out, bases empty. This happens:

Gerrit Cole Intentionally Walking Devers...

And Devers' reaction. pic.twitter.com/0FZG164uzn

— Rob Friedman (@PitchingNinja) September 14, 2024

Guarantee that Bill James agrees with you! (I had a long anecdote about an IBB in a Jays game a few weeks ago, but I've forgotten the details now; it started with an inexplicable IBB, the two broadcasters parried, disaster followed, and the one who was against the IBB ended with "You were saying?")

That intentional walk was literally brought up every.single.inning. It’s crazy how it changed the shape of the game, because it broke Cole right open - he’d been literally unhittable before that - and he didn’t end up finishing the fifth. Total intangibles thing.

I’m watching the postgames & Boone has said Cole was “overthinking” and made it clear it was his decision; Devers said “he’s a future Hall of Famer, I’m not sure why he did it, maybe he panicked a little,” Cora was mainly angry at the hbp in the first inning which he thought was intentional and Cole has yet to emerge to speak in the Yankees clubhouse.

It’s his first intentional walk in seven years btw

Gerrit Cole explains the decisions and planning behind intentionally walking Rafael Devers.#YANKSonYES pic.twitter.com/uTEylUrAm1

— YES Network (@YESNetwork) September 14, 2024

Two minutes into that clip and I've paused: as weird/poor a decision as it was, it feels like the reporters are kind of hounding him.

Cole threw his rookie catcher under the bus by saying the move was discussed beforehand & the catcher (Austin Wells) had no idea it was coming, thought Cole was joking.

The Jays TV guys spent two-three minutes on this today.

What did they say?

I was in the other room, but I think the gist of it was how ill-advised the IBB was.

Actually shocked Cole did this..... hate to be the one defending 'macho posturing' but I reaaaaaally do feel as a pitcher you can't afford to show the other team that form of mental weakness. When I first started watching baseball I would always get frustrated that pitchers didn't apologise to batters that they hit but was soon schooled that "you can't show the opposing hitters any form of weakness, you need to stay in your game, not show them any vulnerability". Now look, if Cole starts apologising to hitters he beans, or gives them a disapproving shake of the head and wink when they get a hit of him, then fine, at least he's being consistent. Otherwise, this is just a baffling move from a pitcher of his calibre.

Cora just poured some petrol on this whole situation.

Alex Cora said yesterday's situation is closed in his mind. "We had our shot in the sixth inning and it didn't happen." The sixth inning is when Bello threw behind Judge but missed him.

— Ian Browne (@IanMBrowne) September 15, 2024

Modern managers infrequently issue direct orders for intimidation tactics, settling instead for complimenting the pitcher who delivers on his own accord. Hitting somebody with a baseball can be a heavy burden to bear, and although most managers appreciate the gesture when it’s called for and handled appropriately, they don’t want the accompanying responsibility. “I never absolutely directed anybody to hit someone,” said Jerry Coleman, who managed the Padres in 1980. “I also didn’t direct them not to hit somebody.”

“Eye for an eye,” said slugger Frank Thomas. “If your number-three guy gets hit, then you hit their number-three guy. That’s what I was taught. If they hit your superstar, you don’t hit their leadoff hitter.”