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Before the game today Rollie Sheldon was talking about old-timers. It's a funny thing, but athletes have improved tremendously through the years in every sport where performance can be objectively measured--track and field, swimmming, etc. Yet in other sports, especially boxing and baseball, there are always people who say the old-timers were better--even unmatched. I don't believe that, and I was interested when Sheldon pointed out some figures in the Hall of Fame book.

...

Willbert Robinson was 5'9" and 215 pounds. Can you imagine what he looked like? Which reminds me of what Johnny Sain used to say on Old-Timers' days: "There sure is a lot of bullshit going on in here today. The older they get the better they were when they were younger."

-Jim Bouton, 1970

gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 14:59 (twenty-one years ago)

"Willbert Robinson was 5'9" and 215 pounds. Can you imagine what he looked like?"

Kirby Puckett was about that size.

It isn't impossible, there was a Probowl NT that played in the NFL in the late 80s/early 90s named Jerry Ball that was around 5-9, so there are odd exceptions to the typical body size.

The athletes in all sports are better now because it is a full time job, but there were probably percentage wise more quality athletes playing baseball 40 years ago and back because 'it' was the game.

How many great athletes that play football or basketball would have made the pros if they played baseball?

I think compared to other sports, baseball's particular set of highly developed skills works against having raw athletic talent. Someone who had a great curveball in the 30s would have a great curveball today and probably it would be just as effective. Someone that was a good quarterback in the 30s might find running the Colts offense like Peyton Manning a challenge, as the sport is so much different now than it was then.


earlnash, Friday, 28 May 2004 17:01 (twenty-one years ago)

however velocity and batspeed surely are helped by athleticism. also the influx of latin american players probably makes up for a lot of the decrease in black american interest in the sport & athletic migration to basketball, football, and, especially despicable, soccer.

John (jdahlem), Friday, 28 May 2004 17:57 (twenty-one years ago)

I think some of the fondness for older players stemmed from the fact they were more like normal guys when compared to today's athlete, partially because of body type and salaries. (Race and ethnicity of players today verse players "back then" is also a big part of the equation.)

bnw (bnw), Friday, 28 May 2004 19:02 (twenty-one years ago)

do you sense the information age is demistifying heroes in sports similarly as it is in politics?

gygax! (gygax!), Friday, 28 May 2004 19:30 (twenty-one years ago)

i don't think so. i think maybe the media are less inclined to engage in hero-worship now than 50+ years ago (i say maybe because i really don't know, but for ex. could we have a joe dimaggio today? possibly, i don't know. maybe we'd just know him as an uptight, cranky bastard due to various media exposes. babe ruth? absolutely not, but immediately after babe ruth there couldn't have been another babe ruth, if that makes sense. he was a once in a sport kind of thing. (speaking of which, michael jordan, joe montana, wayne gretzky? have things changed that much in 10-20 years?)

John (jdahlem), Friday, 28 May 2004 19:40 (twenty-one years ago)

possibly, i don't know. maybe we'd just know him as an uptight, cranky bastard due to various media exposes.

We're talking about DiMaggio right?

Leee's a Simpson (Leee), Friday, 28 May 2004 19:59 (twenty-one years ago)

I for one do think that omnipresent media coverage prevents the mythicizing of current players to the extent that the old timers got. For me, if Bonds had played in the 50s and was doing what he was doing now, and the only exposure I had his feats was the newspaper, there's so much empty space in my mind to fill in the blanks that he would be tremendously huger than he is today. As opposed to today, when he homers there's the amused "No surprise there" attitude I have (don't know if others share the same).

Leee's a Simpson (Leee), Friday, 28 May 2004 20:02 (twenty-one years ago)

joe dimaggio was an uptight, cranky bastard, leee. (i think??)

i don't really get what you're saying about bonds. for one thing, you'd have the radio, poss. television. you'd also have the same scathing articles you do now - the press would've hated bonds in the 50s, too (ted williams). even breaking HR records didn't give you a free pass, look at maris - bonds might've been just as villified, his attitude toward the press replacing maris's "nothing-man" persona/fluke season as the primary reason. (this is ignoring the race factor, which likely would've been horrific.)

[irrelevant unnecessary sidenote but i just gotta say it anyway: had bonds been born in 1930 he certainly wouldn't have broken any HR records]

John (jdahlem), Friday, 28 May 2004 20:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually when I brought in Bonds, I intended to look solely at his performance (which incidentally is what I now), i.e. if I were a Giants fan living in let's say Oregon. I could just have easily said Sammy or McGwire or someone, stripped of media-sociology and race, and focused purely on what they did as a fan in regards to the myth building process. (Even w/ radio, the visual element is largely absent (were there sports highlights back in the fitties/sixties?) leaving room enough for rampant imagination.)

Leee's a Simpson (Leee), Friday, 28 May 2004 20:44 (twenty-one years ago)

it's really amazing attendance is actually higher these days, isn't it?

however, i'm not sure how much i agree w/ you: why wouldn't the "no surprise there" reaction you get when you see his HR highlight on sportscenter every night not be present if sportscenter at night was replaced with a newspaper in the morning? i suppose the highly descriptive quality old game reports must've had might have contributed to mythologization depending on the reporter's embellishements, but generally you're going to know your guy's results just the same as you do now, lack of visuals the obv difference. maybe it depends on the kind of person you are, but i feel like being able to actually see these things happening is just as likely to enhance a "mythology" as not, possibly because of how the mind works, with the most spectacular events the most likely to leave lasting imprints (especially when out of context a la highlight reels? unlikely, but it filters out the stink). for some reason i'm having trouble putting myself in that environment but those are my thoughts at the moment.

btw, a couple thoughts regarding "the visual element" of the 50s: it's said willie mays's catch is only famous because it was on television - that was 1954? so there's an argument for both of us there: it's mythicization via visuals but from a time when such visuals by themselves were really something special and far from "omnipresent"- would that same catch have lasted more than a week in the public memory if it happened this october? about sports highlights, maybe there was a TWIB style show on one of the networks, maybe mlb used movie theater newsreels as advertisement (i don't know how the newsreel system worked (were they like ads?) but this seems likely)?

John (jdahlem), Friday, 28 May 2004 23:19 (twenty-one years ago)

You're last two words I read as Sleater Kinney. I'm tired.

Good point on the Catch. Apparently (visual) media had a different role back then. I originally had in mind something more akin to the Called Shot, and exactly how mythical it is because it's historicity has been notoriously difficult to verify into a single sanctioned narrative.

Leee's a Simpson (Leee), Friday, 28 May 2004 23:24 (twenty-one years ago)

ps i questioned myself and looked up attendace data in bill james' NHBA but it's not even close. here's the data if anyone's interested:

1950s
Total Attendance: 165M

Highest
Season: Milwaukee Braves 1957 2,215,404
Decade: New York Yankees 16,133,658

Lowest
Season: StL Browns 1950 247,131
Decade: Washington Senators 5,598,081

1990s
Total Attendance: 601M

Highest
Season: Colorado Rockies 1993 4,483,350
Decade: Baltimore Orioles 32,192,618

Lowest
Season: Montreal Expos 1999 773,277
Decade: Montreal Expos 13,008,431

anyone got any explanations?


John (jdahlem), Friday, 28 May 2004 23:36 (twenty-one years ago)

good point on the called shot, iirc that was reported in only one newspaper (and not even a new york or chicago one, i don't think) and spread like wildfire, with the babe at first denying but then thinking better

John (jdahlem), Friday, 28 May 2004 23:39 (twenty-one years ago)

another interesting thing abt the called shot is that there are two films of it, one which supposedly proves it and one which supposedly disproves it. i'm gonna dig around a bit, but i think it's widely believed he was just jawing at the opposing dugout or something. i could be wrong on all this.

John (jdahlem), Friday, 28 May 2004 23:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Explanations on attendance differeneces not related to the game's popularity? How about a giant increase in disposable income? And bigger stadiums?

I was just googling for info on disposable income and ran into this article, which has more information about baseball's economics then I ever wanted to know.

bnw (bnw), Saturday, 29 May 2004 15:25 (twenty-one years ago)

are you sure stadiums are bigger? you had you're wrigley's and fenway's but there were also behemoths like yankee stadium, cleavland's old stadium, detroit's old stadium. i don't see this as a big factor. disposable income? not in the lower class, but then i suppose that's not who regularly attends baseball games. you're right that there are probably many more upper and upper-middle class now than then (due to population growth if nothing else), but i still find it really odd that the baltimore orioles outdrew the 1950s yankees twice over in the 90s (of course NY did have 3 teams over half that time, so there you have it?), or that montreal did the same to the senators (i have no explanation for that, though maybe their latter half of the decade numbers would be a closer comparison).

John (jdahlem), Saturday, 29 May 2004 16:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Looking at total attendance is a bit of a red herring, innit? Cos of expansion and all, it'd be marginally more accurate to look at attendance figs. per team, or compare as you did between one given team in different eras. (Those that haven't moved at least, to control for variables.)

Perhaps the trend of relegating day games to weekends to maximize workers' attendance?

eeeLastica (Leee), Saturday, 29 May 2004 20:07 (twenty-one years ago)

i don't think total attendance is a red herring because expansion alone can't account for 3.5X+ growth. the reasons i can think of for the attendance differance are population growth, expansion, and competitive balance, but it's still surprising given that in the 50s baseball was the undisputed king of sports and there wasn't, i dunno, cable tv and stuff. in fact, baseball teams were probably pretty quesy about televising non-playoff games, i wonder if they even did?

here's an example of how much recent attendance is tromping the 50s: in 1956 the milwaukee braves finished one game out of the penant race with a 92-62 record, and their attendace was just over 2 million. in 2002 the brewers finished 41 games out of the division with a record of 56-106, and had a total attendance of just under 2 million. (those two years were pulled out of a hat and i should note that in 2002 miller park still had a new car smell, and attendance dropped to 1.7M the next year. still impressive.)

haven't day games been played on weekends for some time now? i can't imagine it was ever otherwise, and night games have been common since the '50s at least.

John (jdahlem), Saturday, 29 May 2004 20:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Twice as many teams, so double 1950s attendance to 330mln

You've got four extra home games per team x 20k per game = 80k more attendance per season x 30 teams x 10 years = 24mln more attendance = 354mln, so that's, uh, 1.7x the attendance?

Do those attendance numbers include playoff games? Those are a sellout in most markets, and you've got two or three times as many.

More new stadiums, so the Indians were selling out Jacobs field for a few seasons instead of playing to a half-full Memorial Stadium, etc. Even more night games (teams like Texas that play almost a full home schedule at night). '90s economic boom (the '50s had the Ike boom - but people were moving to areas that didn't have teams at the time, rather than booming where they already lived).

I don't think the gap's large enough to not be explainable by all these factors.

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 30 May 2004 02:08 (twenty-one years ago)

you've hit jackpot w/ the new stadiums, i'd forgotten about that. i'm not sure how much the economic boom mattered, but it probably played a role in getting baseball back on it's feet after the strike. i'm not willing to give it a lot of credit, since attendance now is about as high as ever, and "as high as ever" was pre-strike, also pre-boom.
re: population growth (which = increased market for everybody obviously) - the avg american attended a ballgame once every 10 years in the '50s, once every 4.5 in the '90s (also from the NHBA). so that's just over 2X as frequently, and there are just under 2X as many teams, but with more games (i'd forgotten about the 162 game didn't start till 61); call it a wash. and i think the fact that you couldn't see a game without actually going to one in the 50s mostly washes out the new ballpark factor. competitive imbalance surely hurt 1950s attendance a lot, but in the 1990s the _perceived_ imbalance must've been at least as great. i think the contemporary game should be given some credit for the increased balance anyway, though some would find that laughable. i'm thinking overall interest in going to the ballpark these days is (at least) about as great as it was in the 1950s, despite the ability to watch most local games on television and football, basketball, and soccer leeching the hearts and minds of the american public. i'm surprised.

John (jdahlem), Sunday, 30 May 2004 03:16 (twenty-one years ago)

>in boxing and baseball... there are always people who say the old-timers were better--even unmatched.<

And most of those people are Bob Feller.

Seriously, old-timers usually talk out of their ass. The smarter ones are aware of it.

Look at the Dodgers and Giants attendance their last few years in NY sometime. Makes the Expos look viable. The Golden Age sheen is largely applied with paint, by everything from jock broadcasters to Ken Burns to HBO's "When It Was a Game" [sic].

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 12:36 (twenty-one years ago)

The Giants only had a major falloff in '56-7 (when they dropped to a little over half the avg. league attendance, prior to that they were at or above the avg.) and the Dodgers were at or above the avg. attendance over that period.

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 15:08 (twenty-one years ago)


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