The Cardinals: Why Aren't They Better?

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I haven't seen them play and have only glanced at the numbers, but why aren't the Cardinals better than they are? Puhols, Renteria, Rolen, Edwards. Their pitching is suspect--Woody Williams' ERA is up about a run and a half over last year, their staff has the second fewest K's in the NL--but looking at their lineup just makes me think that they should be better than the .500 team they more or less are.

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 14:01 (twenty years ago)

well for one, that division is the deepest and probably most competitive in the entire league. they really need to realign the pirates to the NL East and move what becomes of the montreal team to the AL West.

― gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 14:06 (twenty years ago)

Both Renteria and Edmonds are hitting around .260. Matt Morris and Woody have not been the number 1 and 2 starters at all. (Somebody was saying to put Haren in for Woody since spring training, ahem.) All that said, they are tied (3 way) for 2nd and only 2 1/2 out. Woody has pitched better as of late. Pujols is heating up. And Rolen is probably the most dangerous hitter in the league right now.

― bnw (bnw), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 14:16 (twenty years ago)

Inevitably quoting Baseball Prospectus again ... aside from the four stars you mention, somebody wrote they have one of the weaker #5-25 rosters around.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 14:31 (twenty years ago)

And their bullpen (and bullpen mgmt) is atrocious. The slugging can only hide that for so long.

Anyone here noticing how Cris Carpenter is seemingly saving the Cards' starting staff right now?

― David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 14:59 (twenty years ago)

Carpenter is definitely the staff ace now, albeit that could change pretty easily. The bullpen has been better then last year (hard not to be). Izzy has struggled a bit. Eldred has been pretty attrocious. But Kline and Tavarez and King have been quite good lately. The team is definitely healthier then last year in terms of pitching depth (thank you, ATL).

― bnw (bnw), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 15:07 (twenty years ago)

I was going to say the same thing about the bullpen. If I remember right, they had a pretty bad record in one run games last year.

They are getting better production with Ray Lankford, Tony Womack and Reggie Sanders, than they did out of their 1b (Martinez), 2b (Vina) and Rf (misc.) than last year, but that could end any day now for a couple of these guys.

As good a centerfielder that Edmonds is with the glove with old guys like Lankford and Sanders that has to be a lot of ground to cover.

― earlnash, Tuesday, 1 June 2004 15:15 (twenty years ago)

And Rolen is probably the most dangerous hitter in the league right now.

He's got what, 50 RBIs now and it's just the first day of June?

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 15:29 (twenty years ago)

what constitutes dangerous?

― gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 15:36 (twenty years ago)

Don't be usin' the RBIs!

I was gonna pick this fight elsewhere, but Mike Lowell is at least as hot as Rolen, in a lesser lineup and with a crappy home park to hit in. You can make a good case on the basis of their last 200 games for Lowell as the NL All-Star 3B.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 15:39 (twenty years ago)

god you SABR guys are more ideologically constrained than the Politburo.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 16:40 (twenty years ago)

But we dress better and hold our liquor nearly ... nah, forget it.

VORP, 2003-4
Rolen 87.1
Lowell 85.0

They're both head n' shoulders above the NL pack at third.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 18:03 (twenty years ago)

Don't be foulin' up the Cardinals thread with Lowell or Bonds (who gygax is dying to bring in!) or sabermeteric nerdiness. This is the land of Whitey Herzog. We go by our gut.

― bnw (bnw), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 18:34 (twenty years ago)

let's have a SABR-BACKLASH! If I wanted to watch a bunch of accountants drone on about something, I wouldn't watch "Baseball Tonight."

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 18:36 (twenty years ago)

BT is a buncha ex-jocks pulling "analysis" outta their butts, but you knew that.

Ever read Herzog's book? Where he proposed funding stadiums with national bingo, I believe? Man, I hated that guy. I was SO happy when Kansas City won that World Series on the lousy ump call. It's a funny book, though.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 18:42 (twenty years ago)

DENKINGER!!!!!!1111 My brother went as Denkinger for Halloween that year.

― bnw (bnw), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 18:59 (twenty years ago)

of course it is! I don't have a problem with ex-jocks "analyzing" anything! Actually, I do like it when they talk about mechanics, I doubt some Ernst & Young brody could do it as well.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 18:59 (twenty years ago)

i am definitely NOT SABR-affiliated in any way. I read moneyball and i read some blogs sometimes. i love stats and data though.

i'm just trying to figure out what the measurement is for "dangerous"... if you were to measure for "most dangerous hitter", what stat would you use? or is it something more subjective?

― gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 19:16 (twenty years ago)

i think it's blindingly obvious bonds is a more dangerous hitter independent of context (now that he's out of his slump). but rolen bats w/ more MOB and has more protection, so i guess that's the motivation for the comment.

― John (jdahlem), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 19:31 (twenty years ago)

Dangerous = getting on manager's shitlist. Examples: Reggie Jackson, Jose Canseco, Todd Walker, Carl Everett, Tyler Houston. 50 RBIs = Tony Womack not performing to expectations (i.e. actually getting on base w/ alarming regularity) & Rolen being hot like deep-fried cow.

bnw, I'm still waiting for a poem about To Saguchi.

― David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 19:46 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, I'm surprised Taguchi doesn't get more props, considering he is the first 12-year-old to play in the majors.

― boldbury (boldbury), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 20:00 (twenty years ago)

SO TAGUCHI

Please forgive me.

― David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 20:03 (twenty years ago)

TAMAGOCHI

― Lazer Guided Mellow Leee (Leee), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 20:25 (twenty years ago)

Momus to thread!

― David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 20:27 (twenty years ago)

please god no.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 20:33 (twenty years ago)

TOO LATE!

The So Taguchi will speak to no-one today
He does not even read your paper anyway
We cannot guarantee he will appear at Cannes
And if he does he'll do no one-to-ones

He is asleep
And when he wakes he will need to be fed
Then he will sing
Then he will go back to bed

No interviews with Mr So Taguchi today
We are dismayed by your attempts to invade his privacy
Please go away! Please, go away!
Goodbye!

His painting exhibition is at Andrea Rosen
His rock band rocks the Buddokan
And his book 'I, Taguchi' is in its third impression this week
But Mr So Taguchi is asleep

No interviews with Mr So Taguchi today
We are dismayed by your attempts to invade his privacy
Please go away! Please, go away!
Goodbye!

Please go away!
No interviews today
Good day! (Hoppit!)
Please go away!
No interviews today

― David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 20:36 (twenty years ago)

To Saguchi is brilliant and well deserving of a poem. I will hafta ponder that one. I would say my biggest Cardinal concern, aside from Matty Mo, is Renteria's back and that he is trying to play through something that is dragging down his numbers. Tony should be giving Luna more starts and letting Edgar rest.

― bnw (bnw), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 22:59 (twenty years ago)

wtf Rolen got hit in the head with a pitch and left the game :( my number one concern just changed.

― bnw (bnw), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 23:05 (twenty years ago)

precautionary

― John (jdahlem), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 23:13 (twenty years ago)

pujols is back, i think

― John (jdahlem), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 23:47 (twenty years ago)

best record in the NL, you haters.

― bnw (bnw), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 23:07 (twenty years ago)

We up by 5 in the Central now. a big thankyouverymuch to I-70 and lesser opponents in interleague play.

― bnw (bnw), Sunday, 27 June 2004 23:22 (twenty years ago)

The last thing I want to do is come off like a bitter, whiny Cubs fan ('cause there are a lot of them out there right now), but man... 6 against the Beltran-less Royals and Garcia-less Mariners? The Cubs get the ChiSox, the Astros get the Rangers in their "rivalry" games.

The Cards are the best team in the NL Central right now, no doubt about it. But I hate to think that these huge disparities in the strength of interleague opponents could be a major factor in deciding the NLC pennant race in September.

― mattbot (mattbot), Monday, 28 June 2004 01:28 (twenty years ago)

Can we change the title up there to Why Aren't They Worse?

I smell a regression to mean coming...

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 28 June 2004 13:04 (twenty years ago)

Like getting swept by Pittsburgh, is what I meant to say. I hoped they enjoyed that .600+ stratosphere, not likely they'll breathe it again.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 18:26 (twenty years ago)

still got the best record in the NL, h8r!!!!

― bnw (bnw), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 18:49 (twenty years ago)

WEAK

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 18:58 (twenty years ago)

It will be interesting to see how those ten games with the Reds and five with the Cubs turn out in July.

― earlnash, Wednesday, 30 June 2004 19:02 (twenty years ago)

why didn't izzy pitch the bottom of the ninth?!?! i hate TLR and all his pitching match-up micro-managing crapola!!!!!!!!1111111111

― bnw (bnw), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 19:22 (twenty years ago)

http://www.stlimc.org/stlouis/news/local/webcast/uploads/metafiles/morans.jpg

― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 1 July 2004 00:09 (twenty years ago)

two weeks pass...

bow down, suckerz.

― bnw (bnw), Friday, 16 July 2004 16:02 (twenty years ago)

WEAK

― David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 16 July 2004 16:26 (twenty years ago)

Are you talking about the BoSox wildcard chances again?

― bnw (bnw), Friday, 16 July 2004 17:49 (twenty years ago)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39582000/jpg/_39582199_nun_300x300.jpg

― Gear! (Gear!), Friday, 16 July 2004 17:55 (twenty years ago)

The Reds had them beat tonight and that lineup came up with five in the top of the eighth.

Edmonds is a freaking witch in centerfield.

― earlnash, Saturday, 17 July 2004 03:50 (twenty years ago)

Cardinal's W/L Record since 6-1: (30 - 11) .732 winning percentage.

I think they got the message.

― earlnash, Monday, 19 July 2004 14:37 (twenty years ago)

Re the Card "wrecking crew," not quite ... here's Joe Sheehan of BP (the bete noires he refers to, Womack and Matheny, are villified for their consistently low OBPs, tho Womack is exceeding his lousy lifetime .318 by 35 points so far):

"The Cardinals have a house-of-cards feel to them, with a starting rotation from the Jobe Collection and two of the all-time stathead bete noires at catcher and second base. You can get away with a lot if you make plays and have a tremendous lineup core, and that's what this team has. Like the late-'90s Mariners, it may not be enough to win a title or be a consistent playoff team, but the years in which it does work--like '99 for the Mariners, or '04 for the Cards--are fun to watch. I think enough of the roster core that even my conviction that Matt Morris is about to see the business end of a scalpel again isn't enough for me to suggest that the Cards will join last year's Royals as the only teams to blow seven-game first-half leads in the Wild Card era."

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 19 July 2004 14:59 (twenty years ago)

"it may not be enough to win a title or be a consistent playoff team"

I'm guessing this means: the team is not on the East/West coast thus I didn't notice how they went to the playoffs 3 of the last 4 years.

― bnw (bnw), Monday, 19 July 2004 17:25 (twenty years ago)

The middle of that lineup is killer. The Cards have also been getting some big hits out of their bench.

I can see the comparison to the M's, but I can also see some comparisons to the Angels team from a couple of years ago. The Cards have a bit better starting pitching than that Anaheim team, but it remains to be seen whether the bullpen can keep it up, especially in playoff baseball.

― earlnash, Monday, 19 July 2004 17:55 (twenty years ago)

I wonder how much the Angels wish they had Edmonds now, after he's turned into an even better player after they might have thought his best years were long past. He's sort of a dick, but he's great.

― Gear! (Gear!), Monday, 19 July 2004 17:58 (twenty years ago)

Skipping 198 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

BP Odds still shows them at 90+% but if they drop a couple more games and the Astros win a couple more well. . .

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 15:09 (eighteen years ago)

Cute teaser for Sheehan's Prospectus column -- "The NL Central, which looked as over as reggaeton just a week ago..."

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 15:49 (eighteen years ago)

Haha mean.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 15:51 (eighteen years ago)

I assume it MUST be over, the last time I heard anyone mention reggaeton was when Tracer Hand was trying to make friends with a cab driver.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 16:22 (eighteen years ago)

I think it's chart-topping moment has passed, but it's still all the kitchen staffs at every restaurant I got to listen to AFAICT.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 17:09 (eighteen years ago)

AFAICT? is that like BABIP?

any indications that LaRussa is panicking yet? I wouldn't think so. Maybe if Carpenter loses.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 18:00 (eighteen years ago)

Carpy had a REAL shitty September last year. He got rocked around by Houston in his last start.

― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 18:29 (eighteen years ago)

fellas, i think the 'stros are gonna take it

― gear (gear), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 02:14 (eighteen years ago)

This will be one of the all-time great collapses/come from behinds if so. Let me find the graph.

― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 02:28 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.hardballtimes.com/gifs/nlcentralwins.gif

― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 02:29 (eighteen years ago)

Remember when the Cubs swept the Cardinals? Good times, great lols.

― mattbot (mattbot), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 14:44 (eighteen years ago)

do we really want Cowboy Brantley to come off as a savant? He said on Sunday the Cards might not win another game.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 14:49 (eighteen years ago)

Morbs, Carpenter was your savior. Now who is it gonna be?

― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 15:27 (eighteen years ago)

Jesus?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 15:33 (eighteen years ago)

The fact that their final four games are against the Brewers is a nice saving grace too. Of course Houston finishes up against Atlanta.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 15:37 (eighteen years ago)

STL remaining schedule

wed: SD - Chris Young (#13 in NL pitcher VORP)
thurs: MIL - Doug Davis
fri: MIL - Chris Capuano (#10 in NL pitcher VORP)
sat: MIL - Ben Sheets (#28 in NL VORP... but only pitched the second half the season, easily one of the best pitcher's in the NL).
sun: MIL - Dave Bush (#30 in NL VORP)
mon: SF - Jason Schmidt (#8 in NL VORP) or Matt Cain (#20 NL VORP)

So basically they're up against 6 or 7 of the league's best pitchers.

― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 15:52 (eighteen years ago)

STL has had no days off, are playing exhausted and potentially face a make-up game that could end their season on Monday. Even if they do make it to the postseason, they'll have nothing left.

― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 15:54 (eighteen years ago)

Yes, it doesn't look ideal although I wouldn't be so sure those are the starters we'll see (teams tend to use young guys and AAA arms a lot in late September.) And the Cards are still 1 1/2 games up (and 2 in the loss column) and they are still playing the Brewers (who let's face if their team was actually that good wouldn't be 11 games under .500.)

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 16:07 (eighteen years ago)

they'll have nothing left.

Hence, I'd rather they squeak in, esp if the Mets get to face them.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 16:10 (eighteen years ago)

God I just realize the NL is mess! Nothing except the Mets is decided is it? Wow if I cared at all about this league this would be very exciting. Maybe I will care for the next five days now that the A's have clinched.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 16:13 (eighteen years ago)

Tony L. (St. Louis, MO): Help! Advice, please!

Jay Jaffe: Panic, Tony. Start Carpenter again tomorrow. Press harder. Three words: Yadier Molina cleanup.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 17:48 (eighteen years ago)

To try and end their 8 game collapse, St. Louis will have to find a way to defeat Young (11-5, 3.55 ERA), who has yet to lose in 14 starts away from home this year, going 6-0 with a 2.50 ERA and .179 opponent batting average.

― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 21:07 (eighteen years ago)

and Prince Albert zooms to the top of Steve S's MVP ballot!

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 28 September 2006 12:23 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah right, this win will be forgotten in a few days when the Cards are in 2nd place. My vote's going to The Rocket.

― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Thursday, 28 September 2006 12:46 (eighteen years ago)

My vote is going to Luke Scott aka Francoeur 2006.

― NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 28 September 2006 13:01 (eighteen years ago)

except he takes walks ... meet the new rookie cleanup hitter for the defending NL champs

― NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 28 September 2006 13:04 (eighteen years ago)

Francoeur 2006 is........

Delmon Young

119 Plate Appearances = 1 Base On Ball

― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Thursday, 28 September 2006 13:16 (eighteen years ago)

(I'm pretty sure Karl Ravech lamented last night that Placido Polanco hasn't playedenough to be MVP. KR is a very underrated retard)

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 28 September 2006 13:41 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.hardballtimes.com/gifs/nlcentralwins.gif

― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Friday, 29 September 2006 02:52 (eighteen years ago)

Yahoo!'s MLB headline currently reads "Pujols Stepping Up In Clutch".

That's not exactly how I'd describe a 1-8 tailspin into what looks to be one of the biggest collapses in recent MLB history.

― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Friday, 29 September 2006 02:56 (eighteen years ago)

The Cardinals are most definitely clutching their poo-holes right now...

― ojitarian (ojitarian), Friday, 29 September 2006 03:01 (eighteen years ago)

:`(

― bnw (bnw), Friday, 29 September 2006 11:22 (eighteen years ago)

if I see or hear "Stepping Up" anymore, goin postal...

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 29 September 2006 12:42 (eighteen years ago)

It's taco time.

― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Friday, 29 September 2006 13:13 (eighteen years ago)

CHORIZO

http://www.ocregister.com/newsimages/sports/2006/05/15_jweavermed.jpg

― David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 29 September 2006 13:17 (eighteen years ago)

Cards playoff odds (from BP):

Sept 20

Record = 80-69, division champs = 99.66%, playoffs = 99.68%

Sept 29

Record = 81-77, division champs = 70.71%, playoffs = 70.71%

Next year, I won't give up on the Jays when their Wild Card chances are down to 0.3% in mid-September. You gotta believe!

― NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Friday, 29 September 2006 13:43 (eighteen years ago)

Alright I'd say it's pretty close to being over now.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Saturday, 30 September 2006 01:11 (eighteen years ago)

After struggling through 2 straight starts, Carpenter gets scratched today and Anthony Reyes starts in his place..

I wonder if TLR was watching the ATL-HOU scoreboard because if STL loses and Houston ends up winning...

― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Sunday, 1 October 2006 17:28 (eighteen years ago)

especially because the Brewers are tossing Reyes around like a rag doll...

― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Sunday, 1 October 2006 17:30 (eighteen years ago)

Alright I'd say it's pretty close to being over now.

-- Alex in SF (clobberthesauru...), Friday 7:11 PM. (Alex in SF)

The season right?

― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Sunday, 1 October 2006 17:30 (eighteen years ago)

TLR is completely insane if he opted to not start Carpenter because the Astros were three runs down.

― NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Sunday, 1 October 2006 17:45 (eighteen years ago)

If Houston manages to win and STL loses... the Giants fly to St. Louis tomorrow to play a makeup game.

If the Giants beat the Cards, then Houston and St. Louis have to play a tiebreaker in Houston (as Houston is 9-7 vs. St. Louis)...

the winner of the tiebreaker then advances to the playoffs.

― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Sunday, 1 October 2006 17:50 (eighteen years ago)

WHOOOO D-LO TOUCHDOWN

― Scott Fajita :( (Adrian Langston), Sunday, 1 October 2006 18:07 (eighteen years ago)

"The season right?"

Houston's chances was what I meant, but yeah the season too.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Sunday, 1 October 2006 18:24 (eighteen years ago)

wrt: houston's chances, check the houston thread. LOB was there downfall.

― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Sunday, 1 October 2006 18:26 (eighteen years ago)

The Cardinals actually winning two games out of their last twelve was their downfall.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Sunday, 1 October 2006 18:27 (eighteen years ago)

They're in! Now everyone vote for Pujols and Carpenter for MVP and Cy.

― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Sunday, 1 October 2006 18:44 (eighteen years ago)

I'll wait to see what Webb does tonight, but I probably will. Well Pujols definitely anyway.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Sunday, 1 October 2006 18:48 (eighteen years ago)

Really? I thought you were a straight up VORP guy.

― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Sunday, 1 October 2006 18:53 (eighteen years ago)

So Carpenter then?

― Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Sunday, 1 October 2006 21:49 (eighteen years ago)

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