Pete Rose (What do you think?)

That Phillie team was good, but come on in comparison to "THE BIG RED MACHINE"?

Some Philly fans booed Mike Schmidt on Mike Schmidt Day.

If this happens, look for the Reds to try and re-hire him as manager around the Allstar break.

So flimsy. Now, he's saying he didn't make bets from his manager's office, but his bemulleted gambling pals and bookies say he did. He's a very bad liar. The replays of his denials were a damning indictment. He should be in the Hall, however. With a great big asterisk somewhere close by.

He's screwed and will not get into the hall of fame (at least for a good long time, if ever) or be reinstated.

It is his own fault, so it goes.

"I just think it's hogwash to say that he should be put back into the game just because the public wants it," Aaron said. "A rule is a rule, and the rule is on every clubhouse door that you can't bet on baseball. It doesn't say that you're excluded if you have 4,000 hits or 700 home runs."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1710186

http://f3.yahoofs.com/ymg/ept_sports_mlb_experts__4/ept_sports_mlb_experts-117410000-1210266838.jpg?ymXjMW_CtAi1IpRu

hated him b4 it was fashionable

http://spin.com/sites/spin.com/files/imagecache/huge_page_view/sites/spin.com/files/100428-pollard-rose.jpg

"I just think it's hogwash to say that he should be put back into the game just because the public wants it," Aaron said. "A rule is a rule, and the rule is on every clubhouse door that you can't bet on baseball. It doesn't say that you're excluded if you have 4,000 hits or 700 home runs."

Hank Aaron otm

kinda surprising to me that ilx didn't have a big argument about this q with a lot of neo-nihilist types advocating the "who cares what he did, it's the scoreboard that counts" position

he should not get in because he looks like the biggest douche alive in that pic.

B.Pollard belongin on the men who look like old lesbians thread.

http://blog.rifftrax.com/wp-content/photos/LadyElaine.jpg

If I'm a "neo-nihilist," anyone with a sense of baseball history knows gambling is the mortal sin, explicitly proscribed. PEDs are a fog by comparison.

Also Rose wasn't nearly the player Joe Morgan was.

also check Bob Pollard's sell-by date

Gambling was the mortal sin in baseball -- in 1920. I'm not defending betting on baseball, but gambling is no longer an "existential threat" (if you want to call it that) to the game, and hasn't been for decades. Everyone who uses the "but it's posted on every clubhouse wall" defense is paying lip service to outdated rules that nobody got around to updating. The punishment doesn't fit the crime anymore.

CHALLOPS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAqG4mnkSqw

Leave him banned.

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/11/2010/06/x-ray_rose_bathor.jpg

waht

this:

http://deadspin.com/5555714/this-is-pete-roses-corked-bat

Ken Burns on Pete Rose. "Vote him in after he's dead. He deserves to be in the Hall of Fame, but he doesn't deserve to know he's in."

Sort of agree with this.

Pete the Perpetual Pitchman!

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=19501

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--Vns4l-2j--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/vf8kdwctykaxiwyy6lxz.jpg

Dammit nomar now we have to tag this thread NSFW.

Philthies (mostly) do the right thing

https://www.thegoodphight.com/2017/8/2/16084848/phillies-boot-pete-rose-from-wall-of-fame

Did I hear right?

RIP

4,256 Hits (most in MLB history)
3,562 Games played (most in MLB history)
1975, 1976 and 1980 World Series champion
1963 NL Rookie of the year
1973 NL MVP
17 time All-Star
3 time NL batting champion

Photographed by my dad at spring training in '72:

https://i.postimg.cc/Y92y4WL8/005.jpg

He just seemed to get scuzzier and scuzzier over the years, right up to the really bad stuff that came out a couple of years ago. Going way back before all that, the one thing where I might give him the benefit of the doubt is taking out Fosse in the '70 ASG. I'd be interested in knowing how many other players would have done the same; did the rest of the league draw the line at an ASG? I honestly don't know.

I rarely check for tweets, but I did check Johnny Bench's account; nothing yet. I think he was pretty vocal over the years about keeping Rose out of the HOF.

Fair or unfair, he really fit the stereotype of the degenerate gambler.

I remember as a kid before the whole gambling scandal, he was held in the type of esteem that few players were. He was basically maybe arguably the biggest star in the game. Because of the time he also fit the stereotype of the gritty go-for-broke throwback. Obviously, he was a worthy Hall of Famer as a player, but he was definitely overrated, his career wins above replacement were Hall of Fame worthy but he also played 1 million years.

I imagine Hank and Morbs are telling him he’s gotta stay in purgatory for awhile yet

He played at an MVP-level for about 10 years, ending in '76; he really milked it for the next decade chasing after the hits record (camouflaged, for a few years at least, because he was still able to hit .300). But yeah, in terms of "how the game's supposed to be played," his mystique was off the charts. (Partly why I was asking about the Fosse play--I recall that even then he took criticism for not differentiating between a game that counted and the ASG.)

There are plenty of sleazebags in the HOF, and he should have been one of them.

I remember as a kid before the whole gambling scandal, he was held in the type of esteem that few players were. He was basically maybe arguably the biggest star in the game.

I think this is underappreciated now. The lead up to his suspension in 1989 was bigger than the game itself. Way bigger than, to name a recent example, ARod getting suspended for a full season and all that preceded that decision.

If the Ohtani-Mizuhara scandal had happened in the 80's, I think it would have been a far bigger deal. I think there's a lot that we still don't understand about it, but after the initial firestorm, both the fans and the press were more than happy to see the story fade away because it is generally understood now that gambling simply isn't a threat to the integrity of baseball anymore (and hasn't been for over a hundred years). In an age where sports betting is legal just about everywhere and leagues actively collaborate with gambling sites for sponsorship, nobody should have to fall on their sword over a gambling issue. Rose should have been in the HOF a long time ago.

now that gambling simply isn't a threat to the integrity of baseball anymore

I think that's true today, insofar as it's all legal, and you don't have to seek out extra-legal avenues to gamble (I'm sure they still exist, but why would anyone go that route). I don't think that was true when Rose was betting, though. I've posted this a few times: that if you incurred severe debt while gambling extra-legally, you were immediately vulnerable to having to throw games to get yourself in the clear. Didn't matter that you weren't betting against your own team. I don't even think it mattered what sport you were betting on--mountainous debt is mountainous debt. That even happened to an NBA player within the past five years, didn't it?

i loved pete rose as a kid because he was a Notable Phillie and didn't know about all the asshole stuff. a lot more cool on him as an adult. i still think 'charlie hustle' is one of the great baseball nicknames of all time

i just heard the news. what a complicated figure, in some ways. growing up, i knew about him indirectly, through (what to me) was a kind of mythical "charlie hustle" figure, used as a nickname or a generic description or adjective - "look at charlie hustle out there, nice job!" or whatever. rex hudler was kind of a descendent of that in the late 80s, 90s.

pete rose the person, i don't know, i guess charismatic in some ways but reminded me more of someone who you might get trapped with in a horrible conversation in a bar, and i assume he reeked of stogies and sweat.

they should put him in the hall, now that he's gone. if the point of keeping him out is punishment to the person, well, he was punished because he clearly desperately wanted to be in the hof. as a player, he seems to be one of the most overrated players ever, and yet he still deserves to go in

xp

https://defector.com/pete-rose-all-american

This may sound counterintuitive, but to me it's meaner if they decide to put him in now that he's dead, making it clear they just wanted to make sure he wasn't around for it. Not sure what living wives/family are around (his son played, I know).

To his credit: agreeing to the move to 3B in '75 (and Driessen moving to 1B) so they could get Foster into the lineup--that's really the beginning of the Big Red Machine. He might have been the highest-paid player in the game at the time (or very close), and he probably had enough leverage to balk.

Nope--Aaron with $240,000.

https://sabr.org/research/article/mlbs-annual-salary-leaders-since-1874/

BRef has him at $160,000 for '75; guessing Jackson, Seaver, and probably Bench all made more.

I believe Rose’s contract with the Phillies was the first million dollar one.

That might've been what was in my mind. In '75, the top four annually that I can find went Aaron, Bench, Seaver, Rose.

There will never be another like Pete Rose! He battled his entire life, making it to the Big Leagues on determination and grit. He wanted to win every game and get 3 , no make that 4…no, 5 hits everyday. He won batting title because he had the desire and the goal. He wanted Ty… pic.twitter.com/VhPFFEu7bt

— Johnny Bench (@JohnnyBench_5) October 1, 2024

I agree clem -- it's like all those years that Ron Santo campaigned to get into the hall, and everyone knew he was deserving. Then he died and they elected him the next year. He wasn't being punished but it wasn't vindication for the player, rather, the whole situation was just sad because he never got to enjoy it.

Rose definitely didn't do any favours to his reputation by essentially living in Vegas casinos and signing autographs as a full time job, and hanging around shady characters, etc. But at the same time you can't blame him for being ahead of the curve and monetizing his name years before signing conventions and comic-cons became ubiquitous.

I didn’t really care about Pete Rose until I was moved by the really hard bittersweet pain in his voice several years ago when he described how much he loved baseball more than anything.

Don’t really care about the gambling care much more about him being a nonce

A strike against Pete, in reference to "Ball Four":

The book made Bouton unpopular with many players, coaches and officials on other teams as well, as they felt he had betrayed the long-standing rule: "What you see here, what you say here, what you do here, let it stay here." Pete Rose took to yelling "Fuck you, Shakespeare!" from the dugout whenever Bouton was pitching.

Ok, now I'm LOLing while imagining Pete yelling that in his reedy, pissed off voice. You win Pete, you magnificent bastard!

come on that’s funny

Rose, Morgan, and Bench were pretty notorious for being vicious trash-talkers--I'm sure some of it was pretty vile. Quite sure Rose would have absolutely hated Ball Four; he was the embodiment of some of the myths about the game Bouton tried to dismantle (pun...not originally intended, but I like it).

lol, have friends whose fantasy league is named Fuck You Shakespeare.

ffs

- Donald Trump says he will posthumously pardon MLB hit king Pete Rose

- Sources: Manfred mulling family's request to remove Rose from ineligible list

Please tell me Trump has no say in this matter...more and more he's turning into Roman Castevet from Rosemary's Baby: "Satan is his father, and his name is Adrian. He shall overthrow the mighty and lay waste their temples. He shall wreak vengeance in the name of the burned and the tortured!"

Actually, that makes him Satan's son, not Roman Castevet.

I'm confused, Rose was never charged with a crime related to betting on baseball. There's no crime to pardon him for.

Trump is Trump, but my opinion of Manfred sinks lower into the ground if he follows along with this garbage. MLB had every opportunity to reinstate Rose when he was alive and it would have meant something.

yeah doing it posthumously is pretty cruel, especially knowing how much it meant to Rose

I think it's silly that he's not in, but he's a giant asshole and I'm not going to bat for him

I think doing it posthumously is pretty funny knowing how much it meant to the dead nonce

rose did five months for tax fraud in 1990, for which i guess trump can pardon him. (although if it were that important, he had ample opportunity to do it while rose was still alive.) no doubt it bothers trump that an asshole who broke the rules suffered even mild consequences for doing so, and obviously he enjoys bullying entities he has no actual authority over

i don't know what it means for a dead person to be on MLB's 'ineligible list' but ostensibly MLB has no control over whom the hall inducts or doesn't. but it would be a clear sign to the hall that if it inducts rose, no one important will complain

wonder when trump will come to barry bonds's defense . . . oh wait, nevermind

also manfred 100% does what ownership wants, and the owners who aren't already in the bag for trump surely don't care enough about pete rose's status to risk pissing him off. tbf if everyone does nothing trump will probably just forget about it amidst grand plans to invade antarctica

(although if it were that important, he had ample opportunity to do it while rose was still alive.)

100% he saw (part of) the HBO Pete Rose doc at some point in the last six months.

3AM, tweaking hard on diet pills and Sudafed, ranting to himself about "what an injustice"

Actually, and I hate I know this, Trump has been tweeting repeatedly about Pete Rose should be in the Hall of Fame for over a decade. First tweeted about it in 2013

absurd

Dead nonce

Old school celebrities with Beatle haircuts

Joe Posnanski: "Manfred — and the seven other commissioners, for that matter — didn’t seem all that concerned about the posthumous effects of Rule 21 for the 74 years after Joe Jackson died. Then again, Dwight D. Eisenhower didn’t tweet about it."

manfred, 10 years ago, on not reinstating shoeless joe:

The museum, in a Facebook post Monday, said Manfred had replied with a letter dated July 20 that it "would not be appropriate for me to reopen this matter."

"The results of this work demonstrate to me that it is not possible now, over 95 years since those events took place and were considered by Commissioner Landis, to be certain enough of the truth to overrule Commissioner Landis' determinations," Manfred wrote to the museum.

Manfred said he also checked the records of commissioner A. Bartlett Giamatti's review in 1989 that also declined to reinstate Jackson because the case was "now best given to historical analysis and debate as opposed to a present-day review with an eye to reinstatement."

Said Manfred of Giamatti's analysis: "I agree with that determination and conclude that it would not be appropriate for me to reopen this matter."

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/13555698/mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred-reinstate-shoeless-joe-jackson

Long Rose post from Joe Posnanski today (can't share). One question it answered for me is that Rose (and Jackson, probably) will appear on the VC ballot--whichever one in the cycle next applies--not go on to the regular ballot. And he thinks Rose will go in:

I’ve made many more wrong predictions than right ones in my life, but I’d predict, yeah, he will get elected next December. If you had asked me three days ago, I would have told you that Rose would never get elected, that there just isn’t any group of people where 75% would vote for him.

But the political winds have shifted, and now I would guess Rose will get the vote, and he might even drag Shoeless Joe Jackson with him into Cooperstown.

I always thought the VC was more given to moral judgements than the writers, but Posnanski has more inside knowledge than I do (i.e., more than none), so maybe I was completely wrong on the general thread in saying the VC will never elect him.

Honestly, even if he gets a pass on the gambling (in part because of the Shohei mess, mostly because of the game's new love affair with gambling), I don't think he'll get past this: https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/08/sport/pete-rose-baseball-rape-claim-philadelphia-spt-intl/index.html. That's the elephant in the room that his defenders have to confront.

I still remember when he was banned from baseball. Up to that point in my life, it was the biggest sports-related shocker i’d ever experienced (only eclipsed by Magic Johnson revealing he had HIV). He was definitely done as a Hall of Fame caliber talent by the mid 70s, after that he had some good years, but the kind of good years that Michael Young used to have.

i don't think the writers on the VC are dumb enough to put him in (i.e. he doesn't have those particular votes in the room) but who the hell knows about the players/managers/execs on the VC. He'll need 12 total.

Are there even any writers on the VC? I don't know--I thought it was exclusively made up of people within the game.

the committee that voted in Dave Parker and Dick Allen was made up of 6 HOF members, 5 execs, and 5 "media members/historians."

Looking at last year's committee now...definitely a couple of BBWAA types (Bob Elliott, Tracy Ringolsby). Maybe the distinction is that they're retired themselves.

yeah it absolutely depends on who is on the committee (e.g. harold baines). and presumably the hall will signal what it wants by who it puts on the committee. as jay jaffe said, if he's inducted, that's the end of the character clause

most of these hall-of-famers seem to support his induction: https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6356249/2025/05/14/pete-rose-hall-of-famers-reactions

meanwhile the cincinnati reds wasted no time at all before celebrating a cheater and rapist:
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/45151810/reds-pay-tribute-pete-rose-day-mlb-reinstatement

>>most of these hall-of-famers seem to support his induction

that's not how i read those responses at all

I count 4-1/2 yesses out of the 12. (Wagner says he's glad Rose is getting his chance, but doesn't say he'd vote for him.)