― Gear! (Gear!), Saturday, 31 July 2004 20:35 (twenty-one years ago)
― oops (Oops), Saturday, 31 July 2004 20:37 (twenty-one years ago)
― Gear! (Gear!), Saturday, 31 July 2004 20:39 (twenty-one years ago)
To not give up Clement is HUGE. I would've made a straight Nomar for Clement swap, so you can imagine how floored I am that Hendry was able to secure both for the rest of the season.
Cubs gave up K-Gonz (addition by subtraction), Brendan Harris, a pretty decent 25-26 y.o. utility infielder that got some time with the Cubs earlier this year, Francis Beltran, who has a 96 mph fastball and a slider that straightened out considerably in the last two months, and Justin Jones (who goes to the Twins) who is probably one of the top 5 pitching prospects in the Cubs system right now.
I'm ecstatic, I never once thought the Cubs could get Nomar and keep Clement!
― mattbot (mattbot), Saturday, 31 July 2004 20:58 (twenty-one years ago)
― John (jdahlem), Saturday, 31 July 2004 21:00 (twenty-one years ago)
― John (jdahlem), Saturday, 31 July 2004 21:03 (twenty-one years ago)
― John (jdahlem), Saturday, 31 July 2004 21:21 (twenty-one years ago)
cubs get:aramris ramireznomar garciaparrakenny lofton
not bad
― John (jdahlem), Saturday, 31 July 2004 21:28 (twenty-one years ago)
― Gear! (Gear!), Saturday, 31 July 2004 21:38 (twenty-one years ago)
orlando cabrera, though, is great with the glove, and, if performs even at his career average, considerably better on offense than reese. mienkievich can platoon with millar, come off the bench, or just start outright (especially when lowe pitches).
looking at nomar's defensive #s really chaged my thoughts on this trade. believe it or not, nomar for cabrera was probably a good swap for the sox.
― John (jdahlem), Saturday, 31 July 2004 21:45 (twenty-one years ago)
― John (jdahlem), Saturday, 31 July 2004 21:55 (twenty-one years ago)
― Gear! (Gear!), Saturday, 31 July 2004 22:04 (twenty-one years ago)
― mattbot (mattbot), Saturday, 31 July 2004 22:20 (twenty-one years ago)
Nomar now isn't Nomar from about four years ago, but he is still a big bat for a shortstop. Putting him in that lineup could be great. The only thing that I wonder about is that they only have one lefthanded hitter (Patterson -- Bako doesn't count).
― Earl Nash (earlnash), Saturday, 31 July 2004 22:32 (twenty-one years ago)
but i'm afraid it's a safe trade for the sox, not nearly the disaster i'd initially thought. i figure that, while they're not shockingly better, they've _probably_ improved themselves overall this year (it all depends on nomar's health of course) and for the long-term, and since nomar was almost certainly demanding out, that's no small accomplishment. damn it.
― John (jdahlem), Saturday, 31 July 2004 22:35 (twenty-one years ago)
The key is having a guy who makes contact hitting 2nd and strikes out at about half the rate as Gonzalez. Barrett could do it, but Nomar seems a more logical fit for the lineup. Moving the K-or-HR-prone Patterson down by Barrett in the order should balance it a little better.
― mattbot (mattbot), Saturday, 31 July 2004 22:37 (twenty-one years ago)
The only downside to this deal is that it will take some of Maddux's spotlight tomorrow.That said, commence your happy dance. Direct your prayers to our lord and savior, Jim Hendry, in north Chicago. Hurry to the sporting goods store to get that extra Cubs jersey lettered with "NOMAAAHHHHHHH."The Cub Reporter and others are covering this one, but simply put, Jim Hendry robbed everyone. I'll wait to get completely obnoxious until I see the numbers, but there is simply no downside here. The Cubs gave up a potentially useful reliever (who will be replaced by Ryan Dempster), a decent prospect (at least two years away in an organization loaded with pitching prospects), and Alex Gonzalez to get a difference maker and a #1 pick. I'll take it.Now, the Cubs SHOULD look like this tomorrow:2B Walker (Grudz in a pseudo-platoon)SS NomahhhhhhRF Sosa (I'd rather see Lee here, but Dusty won't move him)LF Alou (I'd rather see Aramis here, but again ...)3B Ramirez1B LeeCF PattersonCA Barrett (Bako with Maddux on the hill)SP MadduxWhoa. That looks good. Not catch-the-Cards good, but Marlins-won-the-Series-as-wild-card good.
That said, commence your happy dance. Direct your prayers to our lord and savior, Jim Hendry, in north Chicago. Hurry to the sporting goods store to get that extra Cubs jersey lettered with "NOMAAAHHHHHHH."
The Cub Reporter and others are covering this one, but simply put, Jim Hendry robbed everyone. I'll wait to get completely obnoxious until I see the numbers, but there is simply no downside here. The Cubs gave up a potentially useful reliever (who will be replaced by Ryan Dempster), a decent prospect (at least two years away in an organization loaded with pitching prospects), and Alex Gonzalez to get a difference maker and a #1 pick. I'll take it.
Now, the Cubs SHOULD look like this tomorrow:
2B Walker (Grudz in a pseudo-platoon)SS NomahhhhhhRF Sosa (I'd rather see Lee here, but Dusty won't move him)LF Alou (I'd rather see Aramis here, but again ...)3B Ramirez1B LeeCF PattersonCA Barrett (Bako with Maddux on the hill)SP Maddux
Whoa. That looks good. Not catch-the-Cards good, but Marlins-won-the-Series-as-wild-card good.
― mattbot (mattbot), Sunday, 1 August 2004 00:28 (twenty-one years ago)
― John (jdahlem), Sunday, 1 August 2004 01:13 (twenty-one years ago)
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Sunday, 1 August 2004 02:24 (twenty-one years ago)
"If Nomar isn't playing for somebody else by the All-Star Break, it won't be for lack of trying on the part of the people for whom he works.
If they could have traded him to the Dodgers or somebody in the 5th inning of the second Yankee-Red Sox game, you better believe they would have done it.
Manny Ramirez gets blamed for everything except Bunker Hill in Boston.
But you know something?
After the Red Sox tried to get rid of him over the winter, he just sucked it up and played as well as he ever has in his life.
Nomar?
He pouts.
When the rest of his teammates are on the top step of the dugout the other night, watching the best regular-season game they're ever going to see, Nomar sat and pouted.
He goes."
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Sunday, 1 August 2004 02:27 (twenty-one years ago)
― John (jdahlem), Sunday, 1 August 2004 03:27 (twenty-one years ago)
Mike Lupica is a bit of a drama queen. He alway comes off as so SHOCKED on the Sportsreporters on ESPN. Last weekend he went on this tirade about steroids and then they asked Jason Whitlock the sportswrter from KC about it and he said he didn't care either way, saying that the money is so insane many people would do the same thing in that situation. Lupica looked at him with his jaw on the floor like Whitlock had admitted membership to the Nazi Party or something.
Nomar up until the whole ARod thing happened probably figured he would stay his whole career in Boston. And then the bottom fell out. He hit shabby in the playoffs, let alone the Sox losing the way they did to the Yankees, then getting tossed out to the side during the trade rumors, having to stay in Boston as a consolation prize and then getting hurt...that is bound to take most star players down a notch. Compared to many players put in such a wack situation, he probably did worse than some but better than many others. Criminy could you imagine some of the primadonna NBA stars in a similar situation?
― Earl Nash (earlnash), Sunday, 1 August 2004 05:05 (twenty-one years ago)
― oops (Oops), Sunday, 1 August 2004 17:03 (twenty-one years ago)
― John (jdahlem), Sunday, 1 August 2004 18:18 (twenty-one years ago)
― Gear! (Gear!), Sunday, 1 August 2004 19:26 (twenty-one years ago)
― Gear! (Gear!), Sunday, 1 August 2004 22:12 (twenty-one years ago)
― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 2 August 2004 00:40 (twenty-one years ago)
― Gear! (Gear!), Monday, 2 August 2004 01:04 (twenty-one years ago)
perhaps more importantly, the guy really, really didn't want to be there. he was supposedly going to shut it down for a month and no one believed he was coming back after the season anyway. the sox now have a shortstop for august, and a long term option in place if they want it.
reese and cabrera will be an amazing DP combo when lowe pitches.
― John (jdahlem), Monday, 2 August 2004 01:52 (twenty-one years ago)
― Gear! (Gear!), Monday, 2 August 2004 04:52 (twenty-one years ago)
As for Nomah fronting on Operation: Shutdown, that's when the Sox should've brought in a "motivational speaker" to "cuff Nomah around the ears" and straighten his punk ass out.
― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 2 August 2004 11:47 (twenty-one years ago)
― Earl Nash (earlnash), Monday, 2 August 2004 13:21 (twenty-one years ago)
― bnw (bnw), Monday, 2 August 2004 13:29 (twenty-one years ago)
And BNW, as always, most of the time, OTM.
― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 2 August 2004 14:09 (twenty-one years ago)
the good, the bad, the nomar
― mookieproof (mookieproof), Monday, 2 August 2004 14:47 (twenty-one years ago)
― Gear! (Gear!), Monday, 2 August 2004 19:40 (twenty-one years ago)
― Gear! (Gear!), Monday, 2 August 2004 19:42 (twenty-one years ago)
South Side?!??
― oops (Oops), Monday, 2 August 2004 22:25 (twenty-one years ago)
― Gear! (Gear!), Monday, 2 August 2004 23:00 (twenty-one years ago)
he was hitting .301/.372/.452 when he was traded. he's not going to be great but he's solid, and should be a starting LF for somebody in a couple years. but he doesn't have a whole lot of value to an org like the sox.
― John (jdahlem), Monday, 2 August 2004 23:31 (twenty-one years ago)
― John (jdahlem), Monday, 2 August 2004 23:34 (twenty-one years ago)
― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 2 August 2004 23:41 (twenty-one years ago)
― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 07:20 (twenty-one years ago)
"....the Red Sox tried to upgrade their pitching by improving their infield defense and scoring fewer runs."
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 13:37 (twenty-one years ago)
The Red Sox didn't have to trade Garciaparra to get Mientkiewicz. They could have had him, yesterday or today, for whatever version of Justin Jones haunts the lowest levels of their minors.The Red Sox downgraded from Garciaparra to Orlando Cabrera, and they threw in a good hitting prospect (Matt Murton) for the privilege. That's not just a bad trade, it's an awful one.... Focusing on unearned runs or individual incidents is a sports-radio mentality that a major-league front office has to be above. The Red Sox have been making a series of odd moves, adding brutal players like Jimmy Anderson and Ricky Gutierrez. Those decisions didn't blast a hole in the team, though. This one does.
The Red Sox downgraded from Garciaparra to Orlando Cabrera, and they threw in a good hitting prospect (Matt Murton) for the privilege. That's not just a bad trade, it's an awful one.
... Focusing on unearned runs or individual incidents is a sports-radio mentality that a major-league front office has to be above. The Red Sox have been making a series of odd moves, adding brutal players like Jimmy Anderson and Ricky Gutierrez. Those decisions didn't blast a hole in the team, though. This one does.
― mattbot (mattbot), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 13:42 (twenty-one years ago)
― David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 14:33 (twenty-one years ago)
like i said, maybe epstein could've dealt nomar more effectively, but until i see evidence, on the field or in writing, that nomar's tendon/attitude/defense weren't problems, the sox are NOT any worse off than before.
i've seen NO ONE, aside from gammons (who of course sided with theo), take into account nomar's health, attitude, or defense when assessing this trade. i was sure carroll would comment on it, but no such luck. so while i've got no "insider" info here, the evidence we have available pretty clearly suggests it was for those reasons that nomar was dealt. and until i see some valid counterclaims, this wasn't a bad trade for the sox.
― John (jdahlem), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 16:11 (twenty-one years ago)
Nomar spoke out today about Bosox management if anyone's still interested in this soap opera:
"I wasn't saying much. I was really short. He was saying thank you and stuff. Then he said, `By the way, how's the Achilles'?' That's the first time he'd ever asked me about the Achilles'."I said, `It's great. It's fine."'Was Garciaparra being sarcastic?"Yeah, I was. I'd just gotten traded. He said, `What do you mean, it's great?' I said, `It bothers me, but it's fine. Yeah, it bothers me, but I'm fine.' Just like, I'm playing. I never said, `I'm sad now."'Garciaparra said he was distressed that all of this has been raised in the aftermath."Stuff is coming out, they're saying stuff about my agent," he said. "It's sad. Here's the truth. Those are the facts. This is it."I'm not mad at them. I'm not going to rant and rave. I'm not jabbing anybody. If they don't want me, fine. They traded me. Why can't that be enough?"
"I said, `It's great. It's fine."'
Was Garciaparra being sarcastic?
"Yeah, I was. I'd just gotten traded. He said, `What do you mean, it's great?' I said, `It bothers me, but it's fine. Yeah, it bothers me, but I'm fine.' Just like, I'm playing. I never said, `I'm sad now."'
Garciaparra said he was distressed that all of this has been raised in the aftermath.
"Stuff is coming out, they're saying stuff about my agent," he said. "It's sad. Here's the truth. Those are the facts. This is it.
"I'm not mad at them. I'm not going to rant and rave. I'm not jabbing anybody. If they don't want me, fine. They traded me. Why can't that be enough?"
― mattbot (mattbot), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 16:27 (twenty-one years ago)
Would that make Boston happy?
― Earl Nash (earlnash), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 16:38 (twenty-one years ago)
Through the tallest source I've ever used, I can say with a high degree of certainty that there was no back-channeled info, at least no more than the normal trade discussions. Medical information was exchanged, conversations were had, and in the end, two parties conducted a transaction. Garciaparra may have been miserable and isolated in Boston, but let's stick to facts. He will need occasional rest and constant treatment, neither of which will guarantee that his heel will remain usable.
― mattbot (mattbot), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 16:52 (twenty-one years ago)
same here. i think they're all red sox fans, though.
― John (jdahlem), Thursday, 5 August 2004 16:56 (twenty-one years ago)
― Begs2Differ (Begs2Differ), Thursday, 5 August 2004 17:26 (twenty-one years ago)
Are you dissing on Leeeee?
― bnw (bnw), Thursday, 5 August 2004 17:26 (twenty-one years ago)
― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 5 August 2004 17:35 (twenty-one years ago)
― Monetizing Eyeballs (diamond), Thursday, 5 August 2004 17:51 (twenty-one years ago)
― Begs2Differ (Begs2Differ), Thursday, 5 August 2004 18:04 (twenty-one years ago)
― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 5 August 2004 18:07 (twenty-one years ago)
― Gear! (Gear!), Thursday, 5 August 2004 18:15 (twenty-one years ago)
3 games, 3 RBIs for NG. My brain can't cope w/ the image of NG wearing blue pinstripes. Also, Dale Sveum is an asshat.
― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 5 August 2004 18:16 (twenty-one years ago)
ihttp://www.altoonacurve.com/upload_images/Sveum-Dale(web).jpg
― Gear! (Gear!), Thursday, 5 August 2004 18:20 (twenty-one years ago)
Seriously, there's nothing dry about most of the BP guys, AND they know that Boston is worse without Nomar. And throw in the odd Fiery Furnaces reference.
Gammons has the mainstreamiest Thorogood-to-Vedder taste in rock imaginable. Hip for a guy in his mid 50s? He's no George Wendt.
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 5 August 2004 18:21 (twenty-one years ago)
Dude my 58 year old banker dad has better taste than Gammons, he owns a Social Distortion CD and Nick Cave's Murder Ballads AND a Dead Can Dance CD. Gammons is all like "I luv Whiskeytown!"
― Gear! (Gear!), Thursday, 5 August 2004 18:23 (twenty-one years ago)
― Monetizing Eyeballs (diamond), Thursday, 5 August 2004 18:26 (twenty-one years ago)
― John (jdahlem), Thursday, 5 August 2004 18:36 (twenty-one years ago)
the difference b/w nomar and pokey, on defense, was one single per game. ie 162 hits over a season. you're telling me that's insignificant??
even if there was some luck/sample size/transiency to those numbers, it still doesn't take into account...well, just read the gammons article for christ's sake. or the simmons one.
if they were criticizing it on some other grounds, like theo not maximizing nomar's value (maybe separate deals for cabrera + mienkiewicz, then nomar for a SP?) that would be one thing. but they're taking some hardline "defense is oldschool BS haha stoopids" even though most of the ultrarational stathead types think otherwise. as do the a's and redsox, apparently.
who's really behind the times here?
― John (jdahlem), Thursday, 5 August 2004 18:43 (twenty-one years ago)
― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 5 August 2004 18:46 (twenty-one years ago)
― John (jdahlem), Thursday, 5 August 2004 18:49 (twenty-one years ago)
― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 5 August 2004 18:50 (twenty-one years ago)
Chris Kahrl of BP on Epstein's defensive defense:
" If the fans had wanted leather, the Sox would have been better off hosting Bondage and Dominance Night at the ballpark.
...For a massive offensive downgrade, the Red Sox pick up an OK shortstop and a powerless 30-year-old first baseman. And whatever the off-field drama involved, it's Theo's responsibility to smooth that out, not let it become tabloid fodder. And although Nomar's defensive numbers are grisly in his month-plus in the lineup, keep in mind that he didn't do a lot of rehab, so he's rusty. If the Yankees can survive with Jeter's pretty waves at passing groundballs, I fail to see how Nomar, even if he stayed this bad for the rest of the year, would have kept the Red Sox from pushing for a playoff spot. Instead, the Sox can count on Cabrera's bat to help make that happen."
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 5 August 2004 19:12 (twenty-one years ago)
it's also real easy to say shit like "whatever the off-field drama involved, it's Theo's responsibility to smooth that out" from where we're sitting, isn't it?
― John (jdahlem), Thursday, 5 August 2004 19:21 (twenty-one years ago)
― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 5 August 2004 19:27 (twenty-one years ago)
― Monetizing Eyeballs (diamond), Thursday, 5 August 2004 19:37 (twenty-one years ago)
it's that ol' "you become that which you despise" thing, ya know.
― John (jdahlem), Thursday, 5 August 2004 19:38 (twenty-one years ago)
― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 5 August 2004 19:38 (twenty-one years ago)
by the way, how come you guys still don't have a closer? I was so convinced that you'd move for jose mesa that I picked up brian meadows, only to drop his boring hold-getting ass today. wtf, how can you even try to beat s.d. or l.a. with herges?
― Begs2Differ (Begs2Differ), Thursday, 5 August 2004 19:42 (twenty-one years ago)
― Gear! (Gear!), Thursday, 5 August 2004 19:44 (twenty-one years ago)
― Begs2Differ (Begs2Differ), Thursday, 5 August 2004 19:50 (twenty-one years ago)
I am expressing my opinion that this trade is getting an unfair amount of coverage/lip-service compared to some of the other trades. My "GET ONE LIFE" is not to be read with a cold-heart.
The Giants lone trade (F-Rod for Ricky Ledee) is one that is notable if only because F-Rod's responsibility of making a few of the 6 outs required in game 6 of the 2002 world series with the Giants up 6-1 will be not be forgotten anytime soon in this corner of the world and this is the first step in healing.
see above. herges is in the top 10 in the NL in Saves with a near 6.00 ERA which tells you exactly what I think of the over-importance of that stat.
― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 5 August 2004 19:59 (twenty-one years ago)
am i missing something, or did gygax just tell me to get a life??? i mean, i wouldn't normally have a problem w/ that, but it seems unlike you!
― John (jdahlem), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:01 (twenty-one years ago)
but i guess i'm dense because i still don't get wtf "get one life" means.
― John (jdahlem), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:03 (twenty-one years ago)
Heavens! I'm guessing that the stat you mean is E.R.A., right? ;)
― Begs2Differ (Begs2Differ), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:15 (twenty-one years ago)
Cubs about to go 4-0 with Nomar.
― Monetizing Eyeballs (diamond), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:17 (twenty-one years ago)
― Monetizing Eyeballs (diamond), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:18 (twenty-one years ago)
― mattbot (mattbot), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:20 (twenty-one years ago)
"GET ONE LIFE" != "Get a life!"
― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:21 (twenty-one years ago)
― Begs2Differ (Begs2Differ), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:23 (twenty-one years ago)
Nomar hits, Cabrera doesn't (this year). The most relevant point.
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:24 (twenty-one years ago)
― Gear! (Gear!), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:24 (twenty-one years ago)
although I admit that I was absent on Meme Day too, so wtf does "Get one life" mean, anyway? Is it equal to "The Beatles rule and James Brown sucks"? Or is it more like "Wear golf clothes to a rave"?
― Begs2Differ (Begs2Differ), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:25 (twenty-one years ago)
― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:27 (twenty-one years ago)
when did i say jeter was a gold glover?? he currently has the highest ZR of his career, up 70 points over last year, and has maintained an ~.860 ZR all season. is that all meaningless too?
cabrera doesn't rake, but he's average with the bat. i don't believe he's a .630 OPS hitter - his 3 year road split would probably be a much better indication of his actual value.
― John (jdahlem), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:28 (twenty-one years ago)
― Monetizing Eyeballs (diamond), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:29 (twenty-one years ago)
― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:30 (twenty-one years ago)
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:34 (twenty-one years ago)
Steve Stone: "That's one happy Pellow."
― Monetizing Eyeballs (diamond), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:34 (twenty-one years ago)
― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:37 (twenty-one years ago)
― Gear! (Gear!), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:41 (twenty-one years ago)
GO GIANTS!!!
― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:46 (twenty-one years ago)
But the players were shot down in a recent attempt to have TV broadcasters Chip Caray and Steve Stone removed from their charter flights. Upset over comments by Stone in response to Moises Alou's assertion that the two announcers were "too negative," players recently asked Cubs management to ban Caray and Stone from future flights, Cubs sources said. Management denied the request, and Stone and Caray will be allowed to fly with the team the rest of the season.
I'm not sure what the big deal is, Chip and Steve are two of the biggest homers a player could hope to have in the broadcast booth.
― mattbot (mattbot), Friday, 6 August 2004 02:41 (twenty-one years ago)
When asked to clarify Corey Patterson's cryptic comment referring to their "mutual JO'ing in the charter plane bathroom", Stone and Caray denied the assertion, looked at each other for an awkward, protracted length, and then began furiously making out."
― Gear! (Gear!), Friday, 6 August 2004 03:00 (twenty-one years ago)