palmeiro busted for roids

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incredible.

http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?showtopic=15744&st=0

― John (jdahlem), Monday, 1 August 2005 15:31 (twenty years ago)

Oh, I am SHOCKED...(repeat a la Claude Rains). I assumed most of Canseco's accusations were true, sleazeball or not. And I still don't care.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 1 August 2005 15:36 (twenty years ago)

how can you possibly not care?? i mean you do realize what a moronic scumbag this guy is right?

god damn, just when i thought this shit had really blown over.

― John (jdahlem), Monday, 1 August 2005 15:44 (twenty years ago)

Well, there's the big name they wanted

― The Original Jimmy Mod (The Famous Jimmy Mod), Monday, 1 August 2005 15:45 (twenty years ago)

HOLY SHIT I AM DYING LAFFING HERE OMFG

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 1 August 2005 15:46 (twenty years ago)

yeah that was my first reaction too, but jesus christ

― John (jdahlem), Monday, 1 August 2005 15:49 (twenty years ago)

damn. goodbye HOF debate.

― Garrett Martin (Garrett Martin), Monday, 1 August 2005 15:51 (twenty years ago)

Maybe Viagra creates a false positive?

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 1 August 2005 15:55 (twenty years ago)

Maybe he switched his sample out with Brian Roberts'?

― Garrett Martin (Garrett Martin), Monday, 1 August 2005 15:59 (twenty years ago)

if daver's scenario is indeed true, bye bye sponsorship $$$$

― maura (maura), Monday, 1 August 2005 15:59 (twenty years ago)

He appealed immediately.

― gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 1 August 2005 16:08 (twenty years ago)

I'm willing to give Raffy the benefit of the doubt that he wouldn't be STUPID ENOUGH to blatantly lie at a Congressional hearing under oath. Also, MLB is completely inexperienced when it comes to drug policies and I doubt they know what substances are likely to give false positives. There are probably allergy and cold medicines out there that give false positives for the tests they are using.

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Monday, 1 August 2005 16:11 (twenty years ago)

ugh. i think i'm going to be sick.

― jonathan quayle higgins (j.q. higgins), Monday, 1 August 2005 16:13 (twenty years ago)

>i mean you do realize what a moronic scumbag this guy is right?<

Yeah, I knew he proclaims himself "a good friend" of Dubya and hoes for Viagra.

Speaking of which, Bob Costas (on the way to an erectile joke) said on The Daily Show last week that he believed Palmeiro's steroid denials, and I snorted. (At the TV, not over a few lines.)

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 1 August 2005 16:27 (twenty years ago)

WOW.

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 1 August 2005 16:29 (twenty years ago)

"I have never intentionally used steroids. Never. Ever. Period. Ultimately, although I never intentionally put a banned substance into my body, the independent arbitrator ruled that I had to be suspended under the terms of the program."

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 1 August 2005 16:43 (twenty years ago)

Haha bullshit.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 1 August 2005 16:49 (twenty years ago)

i'm blaming his mustache.

― jonathan quayle higgins (j.q. higgins), Monday, 1 August 2005 16:57 (twenty years ago)

barry, do you think we'd be hearing about this if there was even a 30% chance it was a false positive? mlb has a very very strong interest in keeping this as quiet as possible, & probably covered that angle extensively before going public w/ this.

at sosh a couple guys were tossing around the 'psychopath' label re palmeiro; i'm of that bent myself honestly. not a psychopath, i mean, but

― John (jdahlem), Monday, 1 August 2005 17:11 (twenty years ago)

psychopath?

all this means to me is that if Raffy's on the juice, then the list of fellow juicers probably includes(ed) everyone this side of Craig Counsell.

― gear (gear), Monday, 1 August 2005 17:31 (twenty years ago)

what?

― John (jdahlem), Monday, 1 August 2005 17:35 (twenty years ago)

if he's smart he'll hire lil kim's laywers

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 1 August 2005 17:39 (twenty years ago)

at this point, if everyone in bb was honest, it'd be more like "wow I'm surprised (insert name) doesn't do it"

― gear (gear), Monday, 1 August 2005 17:49 (twenty years ago)

I think his "I didn't know every ingredient in my supps" plea will find more believers than Bonds, who was expected to be hunched over in his lab coat doing a full analysis.

And meanwhile, X players are taking HGH and there's no test. Round and round...

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 1 August 2005 17:52 (twenty years ago)

are you sure there's no test? i thought the olympics had one.

i dunno gear, i am (at certainly was) ready to give anyone the benefit of the doubt. and i don't think this should hinder that - dude cheated and got caught, and that's a good thing.

i don't think anyone's going to buy it morbs.

― John (jdahlem), Monday, 1 August 2005 17:57 (twenty years ago)

Doesnt this put him in contempt of congress?

― Stuh-du-du-du-du-du-du-denka (jingleberries), Monday, 1 August 2005 19:18 (twenty years ago)

i doubt it since there's no evidence he was taking it in 2004

― John (jdahlem), Monday, 1 August 2005 19:27 (twenty years ago)

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=4287

― John (jdahlem), Monday, 1 August 2005 20:07 (twenty years ago)

How do you not know the ingredients in your supplements like two months after Alex Sanchez was suspended for "not knowing" the ingredients of his supplements and a few months after Barry Bonds "didn't know" what his trainer was giving him. That is the biggest pile of horseshit ever.

It's pretty easy to find out if the thing you're swallowing has steroids in it. All you have to do is take the list of banned substances and the supplement to a chemist and have the chemist run a check. But nobody in baseball does this because they just want to continue to cheat, and if they have to use the "WHOOPS" defense, they will.

I wish they would just ban Rafi for life.

― polyphonic (polyphonic), Monday, 1 August 2005 20:35 (twenty years ago)

http://www.laweekly.com/ink/05/36/features-kotler.php

― gear (gear), Monday, 1 August 2005 20:42 (twenty years ago)

In response to your question, John, Will Carroll says it best

If he didn’t take them intentionally, how did they get there?

If we accept Palmeiro’s statement that he did not intentionally take steroids, the most likely culprit would be that he took an over-the-counter supplement that contained a substance that metabolized into a substance that created the positive test. This is not unheard of, due to cross-contamination in some factories, lax testing procedures, and/or vague guidelines for what is and is not a banned substance.

Organizations like the IOC have bigass lists of disallowed medicines and supplements, some of which can be bought over the counter, precisely because of the reasons Carroll listed OR because they contain traces of banned substances. For instance, an amateur athlete who comes down with a cold or allergy attack right before a competition is generally screwed when it comes to medicinal relief because many over the counter medicines contain traces of various banned stimulents.

However, the IOC has their shit together in that every team coach and doctor has the bigass list so there is absolutely no excuse for giving your athlete something and using the "I didn't know they couldn't take that" excuse later on. OTOH, MLB still has their heads up their asses when it comes to this stuff. If this is what happened to Raffy, then it's still largely his fault (particularly in light of his advocacy for No Tolerance) but he's on a different level of guilt compared to somebody who juiced for years and bulked up huge (i.e. McGwire, IMO).

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Monday, 1 August 2005 20:59 (twenty years ago)

I think the evidence that steroids improves performance is still largely circumstantial, and as an example we can cite Jason Giambi's rather remarkable performance these past couple of months (if he keeps playing like he has, he could garner some MVP consideration, although he wouldn't necessarily deserve to win)

― gear (gear), Monday, 1 August 2005 21:14 (twenty years ago)

How do you know he wasn't juicing up for years, Barry? He went from a slap hitter to a bomber in the early '90s (coinciding with Canseco's arrival on the Rangers, incidentally).

I've always thought his denials were bullshit - just because a guy doesn't look like McGwire doesn't mean he wasn't juicing.

― milozauckerman (miloaukerman), Monday, 1 August 2005 21:23 (twenty years ago)

I don't know that he wasn't juicing for years, I'm just saying that Canseco-style juicing is different from taking an over-the-counter supplement that happens to contain a banned substance.

Also, what Gear said -- the degree to which steroids improve performance (if at all) is presently unknown, we've argued about this before, etc. People have to figure this stuff out before attributing every post-1990 HOF'ers success to steroids.

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Monday, 1 August 2005 22:03 (twenty years ago)

(if he keeps playing like he has, he could garner some MVP consideration, although he wouldn't necessarily deserve to win)

Best OPS, RC27, and SECA in the AL. Just sayin'...

― polyphonic (polyphonic), Monday, 1 August 2005 22:05 (twenty years ago)

great Stark column; sums it up for me

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2122193

― Stormy Davis (diamond), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 05:37 (twenty years ago)

haha wow, espn does trackbacks now

― Stormy Davis (diamond), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 05:39 (twenty years ago)

slap hitter to bomber coinciding w/ canseco is kind of a bullshit statement.

he slugged below .425 once in his first few seasons and he hit a bunch of doubles w/ the cubbies in 1988, not to mention that the season BEFORE canseco arrived in tx, he hit 26 homers and 49 doubles.

i mean, maybe he was juicing all along, but it is not uncommon for players to start filling out as they move from their early twenties to mid-twenties just owing to regular mlb conditioning programs.

― jonathan quayle higgins (j.q. higgins), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 11:40 (twenty years ago)

unfortunately for palmeiro and stark's argument, the rules have changed, and palmeiro is now a cheat and a massive fraud. if he doesn't come forward very soon to tell us exactly what he took that might've caused this (and no matter what he already knows, c'mon) he doesn't deserve in the hall.

― John (jdahlem), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 12:43 (twenty years ago)

I bet he gets in the HOF long before Mr Rose...

Heard one of the WFAN hosts -- the usually harmless joker Steve Somers (?) -- speculating last night that Giambi could be BACK ON the stuff! (ie, that he's had his 2 annual tests -- it's 2, right? -- and has a bye for the rest of the year.)

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 13:27 (twenty years ago)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/01/AR2005080101532.html?sub=new

― John (jdahlem), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 13:37 (twenty years ago)

That Stark column is solidly argued; I've never understood why Gaylord Perry's cheating is so gosh darn likeable.

Has anyone besides Carroll addressed the mystery of the 'hearing' Palmeiro got?

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 19:50 (twenty years ago)

I think Verducci from SI discussed it briefly.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=cnnsi-halloffameorhal&prov=cnnsi&type=lgns

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 20:03 (twenty years ago)

"I've never understood why Gaylord Perry's cheating is so gosh darn likeable."

and i've never bought it when ppl say this (ok, maybe it would've been different if i'd had to suffer watching him cheat against my team or something. and yeah, because i was raised on the juiced ball-whoops-no-juiced hitter game i'm biased toward the pitcher. but it IS different than injecting steroids into yrself, come on.)

― John (jdahlem), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 20:07 (twenty years ago)

What about eating steroids or rubbing them on?

― polyphonic (polyphonic), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 21:21 (twenty years ago)

ny times reporting he tested positive for stanozoLOL, the same roid ben johnson used. casts his sb numbers in a suspiscious light.

― j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 05:59 (twenty years ago)

why don't you buy it? why is one form of cheating qualitatively more acceptable than another? i have heard people say that there's some sort of skill to effective cheating as a pitcher (hey, remember mike scott?)...

― jonathan quayle higgins (j.q. higgins), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 15:18 (twenty years ago)

it's a lot more fun to watch, mostly

― John (jdahlem), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 15:25 (twenty years ago)

fair enough.

― jonathan quayle higgins (j.q. higgins), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 15:30 (twenty years ago)

So apparently Palmeiro tested positive all the way back in May, and yet MLB pressed on with celebrating his 3,000th hit and letting everyone up at the Hall induction make asses out of themselves by celebrating the guy a day before the news broke. Nice.

― rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 15:56 (twenty years ago)

Skipping 112 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

if "today's pitchers" grew up and lived back then, who's to say the babe wouldn't crush them just the same? if babe grew up and lived in modern times, who's to say he wouldn't dominate? it's all a flawed, impossible argument.

Yeah, but I didn't say that, I meant "What if Babe was magically transported to modern times, spent a wacky week adjusting to newfangled technology and social mores, and then had to face up against Alan Embree?" I gotta think Al wins that.

Obviously Babe would be better with modern blah and ARod would be worse without it. My post was intentionally pointless.

― polyphonic (polyphonic), Thursday, 11 August 2005 20:21 (twenty years ago)

Maybe, but a TON of pro wrestlers have died from bizarre illnesses.

They also take a lot of (read: are addicted to) painkillers.

― Leeeeeeee (Leee), Thursday, 11 August 2005 21:44 (twenty years ago)

Comparing diff. generations of baseball players isn't half as bad as when football commentators do it (and they do it more often, based on what little football I watch). Do those chuckleheads really think that anyone playing in 1955 (or probably even 1975) could hang with the modern player? 300 pound linemen are running sprints as fast as position players.

― milozauckerman (miloaukerman), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:09 (twenty years ago)

ha!

the idea of crazy legs hirsch squaring up against lavar arrington or ray lewis? laughable, maign.

― jonathan quayle higgins (j.q. higgins), Friday, 12 August 2005 11:10 (twenty years ago)

DVDs, Milo.

What time will the caca hit the fan today, 3 or 4 ET?

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 12 August 2005 12:22 (twenty years ago)

I thought Mike & the Angry Puppy started at 2!

― David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 12 August 2005 12:41 (twenty years ago)

so like is anything happening or what?

― John (jdahlem), Friday, 12 August 2005 17:33 (twenty years ago)

Jams' name will be DRUDGE if it doesn't!

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 12 August 2005 17:50 (twenty years ago)

it just seems a classic example of the sort of information you dump in the "friday trash." and in support of the theories that a-r0d might be one of those rumored soon-to-be suspendees, he was SO OFF his game last night. missed several easy-to-get grounders and struck out two or three times. not to witchhunt or nothing...

― Jams Murphy (ystrickler), Friday, 12 August 2005 18:17 (twenty years ago)

i thot most of the suspensions so far have been released on mondays but i don't really pay attention anymore (since i don't get paid anymore).

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 12 August 2005 18:26 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, I'm not sure 'Friday news dump' applies to sports -- that's when ppl start paying attention.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 12 August 2005 18:43 (twenty years ago)

And it'll be on ESPN all fucking day long, and you think alot of people watch a shitload of ESPN on the weekends..

― Stuh-du-du-du-du-du-du-denka (jingleberries), Friday, 12 August 2005 21:17 (twenty years ago)

a POSITIVE A-ROD would be joy

imagine!

we could call him a-roid!

― mark p (Mark P), Saturday, 13 August 2005 00:08 (twenty years ago)

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20050814/capt.bab10508141859.blue_jays_orioles_bab105.jpg

― gygax! (gygax!), Sunday, 14 August 2005 20:33 (twenty years ago)

what's a back cheater?

― gear (gear), Sunday, 14 August 2005 21:07 (twenty years ago)

OMG! i heard a few boos when I was listening to the game today... but.. wow!

― Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Monday, 15 August 2005 05:01 (twenty years ago)

That image is now my desktop.

― Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Monday, 15 August 2005 05:14 (twenty years ago)

i think of that family guy w/ the recurring gag of the guy popping out of nowhere, pointing his finger at peter griffin and shouting, "you're a big phony!"

― jonathan quayle higgins (j.q. higgins), Monday, 15 August 2005 12:52 (twenty years ago)

unsubstantiated rumor that Clemens is next

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Thursday, 18 August 2005 21:06 (twenty years ago)

From some Neyer chat:

Derek in Iowa City: What's with the rumors about the two "superstars" that have tested positive for banned substances?

Rob Neyer: We're hearing the same rumors at ESPN, along with some actual names. But I don't have any interest in spreading rumors. We'll know when we know.

**************

Dan (Boston): Are you a Carpenter or Clemens man?

Rob Neyer: Clemens, although that could change soon.

― d4niel coh3n (dayan), Thursday, 18 August 2005 23:21 (twenty years ago)

MLB is a big office...prone to big rumors...but I've heard this one from a bunch of different places, including a random email from someone who said they heard it on espn radio. Where there's smoke, there's fire?

― scrimhaw1837 (son_of_scrimshaw), Thursday, 18 August 2005 23:24 (twenty years ago)

holy shit!

― Jams Murphy (ystrickler), Friday, 19 August 2005 00:11 (twenty years ago)

If this is true (and I'm probably not doing anybody any good by speculating until we hear confirmation), hopefully it will put an end to the sad practice of targeting home run hitters while everyone else gets overlooked (incredibly, Jayson Stark OTM). In other words, lots of people (incl. many on this board) are so sure that "bigger muscles = more homers" even without any evidence of how steroids can benefit or hinder hitting. Without such a seemingly "obvious" link between juicing and pitching performance, maybe a greater sense of sanity will prevail.

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Friday, 19 August 2005 00:32 (twenty years ago)

whatever happens, whoever gets busted for steroids will just add to the shrill shrieking from media types. Clemens will be crucified.

― gear (gear), Friday, 19 August 2005 00:37 (twenty years ago)

Actually, the presumed identity of the second "superstar" is the interesting thing - there have been a lot of rumblings about Gary Sheffield, but apparently some third-stringer on ESPN Radio all but said it was Johnny Damon.

All homerism aside, I'm doubtful it's Damon; Damon's comments in this article certainly don't sound like those of somebody in the throes of an appeal. But if it's true? Yowza.

― d4niel coh3n (dayan), Friday, 19 August 2005 00:54 (twenty years ago)

i believe that espn radio "third-stringer" was yes network announcer (read: kool-aid drinker) michael kay. who was probably just that thrilled to cast doubt on two people who have sullied the yankee name.

― maura (maura), Friday, 19 August 2005 01:25 (twenty years ago)

who gives a shit gear?

clemens is such an ass, god i hope it's him.

― John (jdahlem), Friday, 19 August 2005 12:37 (twenty years ago)

It wasn't Kay, Maura. It was Harry Teinowitz, who's on WMVP in Chicago. I couldn't find his name when I posted that. No idea how credible he is, but hey, what's a witch hunt without spurious allegations? :)

I don't know what to make of this quote in today's Hartford Courant, though:

"I just think people want to start something with anybody," said Damon, who entered Thursday's game against the Angels hitting .331, best in the American League. "I'd be more than happy to take any test. There's no way. If I tested positive for something, it's going to be because someone threw something in a drink or did something like that."

― d4niel coh3n (dayan), Friday, 19 August 2005 12:43 (twenty years ago)

dude, so he's already got his excuse...isn't that just a damon-esque raffy excuse?

(j/k...)

― jonathan quayle higgins (j.q. higgins), Friday, 19 August 2005 13:37 (twenty years ago)

Clemens & Raffy wd make two Friends of W! That State of the Union speech worked wonders...

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 19 August 2005 13:43 (twenty years ago)

wait...i hope you're not suggesting that the preznit is an 'ippocrit...

― jonathan quayle higgins (j.q. higgins), Friday, 19 August 2005 13:48 (twenty years ago)

So... back to Clemens. Bad timing to have his worst start of the year, wouldn't you say?

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore?gid=250818118

― gygax! (gygax!), Friday, 19 August 2005 15:04 (twenty years ago)

so like is anything happening or what?

-- John, August 12th, 2005 2:33 PM. (later)

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Friday, 19 August 2005 15:18 (twenty years ago)

haha i was thinking that too, gygax! guess his appeal was denied.
(j/k)

xpost

― mark p (Mark P), Friday, 19 August 2005 15:19 (twenty years ago)

Major League Baseball officials received at least a dozen phone calls yesterday regarding a rumor MLB was about to announce that Roger Clemens and Johnny Damon had tested positive for steroids, with an announcement coming today. ''Total BS," one official said. MLB and the players' union had released a joint press release last week, vehemently denying that more prominent players had tested positive in the aftermath of Rafael Palmeiro's failed test. -- Boston Globe

― mark p (Mark P), Friday, 19 August 2005 15:21 (twenty years ago)

John sounds like a spurned lover!

― gear (gear), Friday, 19 August 2005 16:51 (twenty years ago)

that would be the sox fans. yankees fans just plain hate his guts.

― John (jdahlem), Friday, 19 August 2005 17:00 (twenty years ago)

and seriously dude, i don't get why you continually portray these guys as some kind of victims. they're either dumbasses or arrogant fucks who deserve to be taken down a notch or five. (palmeiro would appear to be in the latter category; clemens & damon, i'm not so sure. well ok damon is just a retard.)

― John (jdahlem), Friday, 19 August 2005 17:10 (twenty years ago)

well i don't think steroids are a big enough deal to kick people out of the game or keep them out of the hall of fame, basically to paint their entire careers with one brush based on one failed test, which could mean they used it to speed up recovery injury time OR it could mean they're old and want to perform at a high level OR--it is possible, albeit not likely--that they didn't know they had something in the system. and clemens and/or damon haven't actually been "outed" yet you know!

― gear (gear), Friday, 19 August 2005 17:34 (twenty years ago)

yeah and i doubt they will and i don't even suspect them of using as of now, sorry if i gave that impression.

none of yr examples hold any water w/ me. using steroids in this environemnt on the chance that you'll recover from an injury quicker is stupid, like preposterously stupid, unless the benefits are way more than i'm imagining. and using them because you're old isn't an excuse, are you kidding? as for the 'didn't know' excuse, i suppose i'm willing to consider it in cases where it might make a bit of sense. as far as i'm concerned there hasn't been one yet.

― John (jdahlem), Friday, 19 August 2005 17:55 (twenty years ago)

Is there a list of Canseco's implied users somewhere? I'd like to keep a tally.

― gygax! (gygax!), Friday, 19 August 2005 17:56 (twenty years ago)

well i don't care why they used it, what matters is that based on one failed test one's entire career shouldn't be nullified.

― gear (gear), Friday, 19 August 2005 18:01 (twenty years ago)

that's true, it shouldn't be nullified. but it should be compromised, which is exactly what we've seen w/ bonds, sheffield, giambi, and palmeiro. none of their achievements are ignored or discarded, but there is a cloud over them. and i think that's a reasonable price to pay for cheating.

― John (jdahlem), Friday, 19 August 2005 20:05 (twenty years ago)

And still, no one has proved that Bonds 'cheated.'

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 19 August 2005 20:11 (twenty years ago)

don't start

― John (jdahlem), Friday, 19 August 2005 20:11 (twenty years ago)

espn reporting sheffield, randy johnson test positive

― j blount (papa la bas), Friday, 19 August 2005 20:44 (twenty years ago)

asshole!!

― mark p (Mark P), Friday, 19 August 2005 22:31 (twenty years ago)

hahahahaha

― Rock Hardy (Rock Hardy), Friday, 19 August 2005 23:27 (twenty years ago)

Genius.

― d4niel coh3n (dayan), Saturday, 20 August 2005 03:29 (twenty years ago)

actually, it's almost like the shit w/ giambi & sheff never even happened. i mean, as long as you produce...and play for the yankees.

ha!

― jonathan quayle higgins (j.q. higgins), Sunday, 21 August 2005 16:41 (twenty years ago)

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