The Bill Walsh of Baseball?

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Thinking about Willie Randolph's less-than-inspiring year @ the helm of the Metsies, & Mazilli's boot from Baltimore: is there any manager-type that's worked w/ coaches or players that became good managers?

Bill Walsh, BTW = mastermind of the Superbowl champeen 80s San Fran 49ers teams of Montana & Rice & Craig &c.; had about 3912 coaches that went on to become well-regarded coaches / GMs.

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 8 September 2005 13:01 (twenty years ago)

I wanna say John McGraw, but off the top of my head I can only come up with Stengel and Bill Terry as his proteges.

Stengel had Billy Martin, Hank Bauer and Ralph Houk (despite his 2 pennants, Berra was not well regarded by his players, or anyone else really).

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 8 September 2005 13:17 (twenty years ago)

earl weaver?

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 8 September 2005 14:21 (twenty years ago)

I can only think of Davey Johnson, Frank Robinson (*erm*, 'successful') and Don Baylor from Weaver...

I'd bet the farm Bill James covered this in the skippers book. Probably someone like Wilbert Robinson(also aStengel tutor).

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 8 September 2005 14:33 (twenty years ago)

re: weaver

don't forget johnny oates!

as far as well regarded coaches (ie not managers): ray miller, terry crowley, [depends on who you ask] joe kerrigan, rich dauer, don buford and elrod hendricks (ha!)

also, i know a dude named dave duncan played for the o's back in the day, but do not whether or not is tony larussa's dave duncan.

― jonathan quayle higgins (j.q. higgins), Thursday, 8 September 2005 14:57 (twenty years ago)

http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/coach_staff_bio.jsp?c_id=stl&coachorstaffid=931101144319

Before joining the Cardinals, Duncan had been Oakland's pitching coach since July 1986, when he joined the A's along with manager Tony La Russa. Under Duncan's guidance, the Oakland staff ranked as one of the best in baseball, leading the American League in ERA from 1988 through 1990. In 1990, the A's had the lowest earned-run average in the majors, becoming just the second A.L. staff to do so since the inception of the DH rule in 1973. Duncan began his coaching career in 1978 with the Cleveland Indians. In 1982, he was hired as Seattle's pitching coach, and the Mariners responded by leading the A.L. in strikeouts and finishing second in saves and shutouts. He left the Mariners in 1983 to join La Russa and the Chicago White Sox.

A former catcher, Duncan signed with the Kansas City A's in 1963 and made his major league debut in 1964. When the A's moved to Oakland, Duncan moved with them and appeared in both the 1971 and 1972 A.L. Championship Series and the 1972 World Series. Duncan concluded his playing career with two-year stints in both Cleveland (1973-74) and Baltimore (1975-76).

― d4niel coh3n (dayan), Thursday, 8 September 2005 17:36 (twenty years ago)

Are we crediting Duncan with the success of Peterson or Young or something?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 8 September 2005 19:01 (twenty years ago)

Are we?

Hey - Tommy Lasorda's got Scoscia AND Hersheiser AND Dusty Baker to his credit! And probably more! Wheeeeeee!

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 8 September 2005 19:05 (twenty years ago)

Oh I didn't see the ref to Weaver above. I think it'll be hard to find a basis for comparison cuz pitching/hitting/assistant coaches tend to move horizontally a lot in baseball (also assistants in the NFL move to the NCAA frequently and then back to the NFL to be head coaches, I'm not sure that happens in baseball very often--or at all given that the proving ground would be far more likely to be the minors.) Also Walsh was kind of unique in that he (through Montana mostly) was really able to completely revolutionize the NFL's offensive game. I'm not sure any coach in baseball has had such a game-shifting effect. I think strangely enough Beane (with two former assistants now GMs and a number of like-minded acolytes/friends filling other GM spots) is probably the closest comparison to Walsh in terms of the game-changing effect.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 8 September 2005 19:13 (twenty years ago)

cosmic...what is it about the bay area?

although, in fairness, you could also say that don coryell might have been even more or at least as influential (see mike martz, joe gibbs, ernie zampese, norv, etc.) i mean, aren't the west coast offense and air coryell the basic, competing offensive templates?

― jonathan quayle higgins (j.q. higgins), Thursday, 8 September 2005 19:25 (twenty years ago)

Let's stick to managers, or this could get as boring as ANY discussion of the NFL. I would also nudge back to DR's spawned-GOOD-managers standard, ie won at least one pennant or division title.

Durocher? Alvin Dark, Eddie Stanky...

Walter Alston? Gil Hodges, Lasorda, Zimmer, Bobby Valentine, Dusty Baker ('76, Alston's last).

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 8 September 2005 19:35 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, but playing for someone isn't exactly the same as being an assistant coach is it?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 8 September 2005 19:37 (twenty years ago)

Also Bobby Valentine and Dusty as good managers is decidedly questionable.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 8 September 2005 19:40 (twenty years ago)

Ha - so's Lasorda! But John Madden's #1 Fan just said "good" = "pennant / division winner".

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 8 September 2005 19:45 (twenty years ago)

Bobby Valentine is an unquestionable good manager if you've been watching Randolph lately.

I'm sure Alston didn't teach Dusty much anyway -- the Dodgers would've still been playing guys from the '50s if he had.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 8 September 2005 19:57 (twenty years ago)

"Bobby Valentine is an unquestionable good manager if you've been watching Randolph lately."

Good point.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 8 September 2005 19:58 (twenty years ago)

Heh Tommy.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 8 September 2005 20:36 (twenty years ago)

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