CHW - LAA 2005 ALCS Thread

The The Anaheim have got them right where they want them with that the strike out of Rodneyguez.

White Sox in 6.

White Sox / Houston would still be a pretty terrible ratings world series, chin up.

http://espycollection.shazamm.net/images/photo_derek_jeter.jpg

White Sox in 6, only to get creamed by the Cards.

What is the postseason record for CS?

Piniella needs to be put out of his misery in the booth. "Darin Erstad plays the game the right way, he plays to win" ... OOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, THE INSIGHT.

*judging from the pre-game show, I would have thought that the White Sox were playing themselves tonight since the Angels were barely mentioned. Surprise, surprise, Fox is sucking on the Curse Teat for the third straight year and hoping that the opposition plays along.

Too bad Garret Anderson had to go and wreck everything with that game-winning home run.

BRILLIANT!!! :D

but whatever, i'm this year's bad guy, so i'll back off now.

I think you missed 80% of what I wrote because you couldn't concentrate over the sound of your fingers banging your keyboard. I posted a few numbers and you were all "I PISS ON YOUR STATS", then I made different (written) arguments and you vented "WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE? SHOW ME NUMBERS? ARE YOU AFRAID????". Convenient.

Of course, we should all stop talking about the Angels and White Sox because none of us understand those teams as well as their managers do, so what point can this thread possibly serve? Also, we should all show more respect to ex-pro athletes by never referring to them by their first names.

not at all. but we shouldn't declare them a better team than the nl club.

(beats dead horse)

OK, maybe in the Internet era. The only non-money league I've played in is ILBB's. But it started out as gambling, and it's almost always a form of gambling when you get a live group together to play.

The statheads I know frown on fantasy/rotisserie because you buy/draft pitchers based not on their quality but on a variety of factors (a bad pitcher on a good team may pay off better than a good pitcher on a bad team if you count wins or saves). So you're buying something a few levels removed from their actual game-impacting performance.

It seems completely similar. You are trying to win the game by focusing on undervalued commodities (steals? saves? wins?). Fantasy baseball is not about determining who wins actual baseball games, but the methodology is the same.

And, to be honest, I think far too much emphasis is placed on 'winning championships' in sports.

Then by extension doesn't that mean far too much emphasis is place on winning, period? Should runs be just one factor used in computing a team's score? Average the team's OPS divide by its WHIP and multiply by its runs!

People have their careers graded on something that's not necessarily within their control.

Well winning isn't the sole criteria used in evaluating an athelete, but sure some value should be given to it? The goal of any athlete should be to win, end of story. Jordan wasn't universally hailed as the greatest b-baller ever until he proved that he could win, yet even before he did many thought he was. Dominique still gets respect for the incredible skills he displayed, but...being a consistent winner/delivering in the clutch AND posting impressive stats is what seperates the good and the great from the best.

A lot of mediocre and crappy players rode the Yankee train to a lot of World Series rings back in the day, that doesn't mean they were better players.

No it means they were on a better team!

If you mean individually, yes. 'Wins' is an overrated stat for pitchers, quarterbacks and the like.

"Well, Joe Bob won three championships while Jimmy Jim didn't, so clearly I have to say that Joe Bob was the superior player" is the type of stuff that makes me allergic to sports media.

But yeah, I find blaming one player for his franchise's failure to win a championship to be rather weak sauce.

xpost yeah obv taken that way, wins as a absolute and sole barometer is no good. but aren't you impressed that MJ won 6 times in 6 straight seasons*? or awed by what Bill Russell did, even though Chamberlain no doubt had more skills? (sorry for the bball refs but that's my sport). You seem to be doing the same thing as anti-rockists ie seeing that the pendulum needs to be swung back, but swinging it too far the other way and throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

But yeah, I find blaming one player for his franchise's failure to win a championship to be rather weak sauce.

That's not the same as giving more honors to those who do win championships.

*in seasons where he was with the team from the first game.

"Wins don't mean much" as a line of reasoning has nothing to do with espn or fantasy leagues.

ESPN is perhaps the biggest source of "Wins mean everything", since they're the guys who brought you Joe Morgan, John Kruk, Sean Salisbury, Dickie V., Stephen A. Smith, Around the Horn, etc.

Fantasy leagues have had zero negative impact on athletes who own a lot of rings. Tom Brady and Derek Jeter are probably lauded more today than they would have been pre-fantasy. The only difference now is that there is a voice for people who think ARod and Peyton might be better players.

One, I'm talking about 'wins' as an indicator of skill and performance. There's nothing wrong with 'wins' - they're obviously important for the team. As Barry said earlier, by arguing that a team is 'better' - in skill, statistically, etc. whatever - that does not automatically equate to saying that the losing team was robbed or should have made the playoffs.

The number of wins a team has is often indicative of their relative level of play, but sometimes there's a fluke. The White Sox got very lucky this year in certain situations, something they're unlikely to repeat. (And, again, their failure to be lucky in this particular way for the second half nearly cost them the playoffs.)

What Barry's trying to do is say 'all other factors being equal, this team was/would have been superior to this team.' (Of course, in doing that he's ignoring the A's injuries and they would have whupped them all. Boo-yah.)

Likewise, championships (in a team sport) can be the topping to a career, but they shouldn't be the definition of a career. Going to another thread that I can't remember - I judge MVP/Cy Youngs differently from, say, Morbius. I think that when you're talking about championships, awards and such, you don't have to toe the stathead line - in looking back, going by subjective measures is prefectly fine. I have no problem giving David Ortiz the MVP because he was more 'clutch' than A-Rod.

Jordan would have been the greatest ever even if he never won a championship. Maybe the Bulls never put pieces around him - does that make him a 'bad player'? In my eyes, no.

I got tired of hearing about what a horrible player Shareef Abdur-Rahim was last year, because by God he'd been in the L for however many years without making the playoffs. Like it was his fault, and his alone, that the Hawks were a shitty team. A lesser form of this can be seen in the fawning that went on over Dwayne Wade (vs. Lebron). Suddenly Wade is the golden child because Lebron was unable to make and dominate the playoffs by himself. Nothing against Wade, but I hated that 'he's better than Lebron' argument - let's see what happens if Shaq joins the Cavs, y'know?

grr, Tom Brady isn't helping my fantasy team all that much.

not true. there are enough basketball players (who was that big donk at Syracuse the last several years?) who never get the ball, never score, etc. a basketball player can take over a game offensively, yes, but can also largely disappear.

"Far less" is not the same thing as "none at all"

unless he's y'know a pitcher. or a batter hitting a home run. but besides that...

Jordan would have been the greatest ever even if he never won a championship. Maybe the Bulls never put pieces around him - does that make him a 'bad player'? In my eyes, no.

way to load the argument. either he's the greatest ever or he's a bad player.
I do agree with your position to a certain extent, but I think you're grasping for strawmen: only complete idiots dismiss, say, Tony Gwynn or rank James Worthy over Karl Malone because James won several rings and Malone has none.

i sorta agree with what stence just said, with the caveat that I do love to see an incredible individual performance, regardless of whether it results in a W. I'd rather watch Iverson than Duncan any day. But who's the better player? Impossible to say.

Did Jordan play every 5th game? How many 3/4 court-length shots did he make per season?

Whereas a top-flight player is in on every play, 40+ minutes a night.

way to load the argument. either he's the greatest ever or he's a bad player.
Except that variations of this are part of the average sports conversation around. (cf. Abdur-Rahim, switching golden boys, etc.)

(at any rate, any flack Tony Gwynn takes for not winning a title is more than covered from his being overrated for his average)

Well let me try to answer anyway: The Giants didn't make the playoffs this year because of their indefensibly rancid starting pitching, injuries to all three of their geriatric outfielders (Barry/Marquis/Moises), being without their closer for 4.5 months (Benitez), do you really want me to go on?

2005 Winshares courtesy of The Hardball Times.

Let me see if I can dig up last years...

You know, they changed that photo maybe 18 months ago.

The Yankees are finding out that, although their 2001-2005 teams have been about as good as the '96-00 editions, the main reason Jeter was such "A WINNER" is that they had more than their share of October hotness (positive-streakiness? any word but luck) in the first period. Or that's what they SHOULD be finding out.

Torre got lucky a whole lot during that run with some of his lineup choices with guys like Jim Leyritz, Jose Vizcaino, Chad Curtis, Rickey Ledee and other no name players having big games/series. Besides that, they platooned some ex-stars like Strawberry, Raines, Chili Davis, Cecil Fielder, and Boggs, who seemed to all come up with a timely hit or two in those playoff runs.

The Yanks roster seem to get a bit more top heavy every year with the bottom rungs getting worse and worse.