whoa, Theo Epstein walks away from the Boston Red Sox (and baseball too?)

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yeah, what in the world?? anybody got access to talk radio?

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 00:02 (nineteen years ago)

I changed the thread title, hope you don't mind gear.

gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 00:07 (nineteen years ago)

The Dodgers, Phillies and Devil Rays have GM openings, but none has a $120 million payroll to match the one Epstein was given in Boston.

The Ghost of Poppy Hidalgo (diamond), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 00:13 (nineteen years ago)

We're doomed. Wonder if they go after DePodesta.

d4niel coh3n (dayan), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 00:14 (nineteen years ago)

Assuming he works again, it'd be fun to see what he could do with a 'hopeless' organization like KC or Pittsburgh.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 14:06 (nineteen years ago)

Would someone please brain that backstabbing loudmouth Lucchino, please? Please? Like, now, please?

David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:11 (nineteen years ago)

Christina Kahrl does some braining on Prospectus:


In case you've missed the events of the last 72 hours, counterrevolution is the fashion, and as our own Will Carroll has put it, the weapon of choice is the White Sox. Skip however smug and frequently fact-free interpretations of why the White Sox won are--maybe it's just me, but "pitching, defense and the three-run home run" was Earl Weaver's formula, not Gene Mauch's. However much Ozzieball is a put-up job, it's manna from heaven for the industry's old guard, a generation of men grown jealous in recent years over the credit heaped upon the game's up-and-coming wave of general managers.

However unnecessary the "rivalry" between old-school baseball and the next generation of management techniques could and should have been, that struggle has taken on a life of its own. In this sort of contest, the scorecard is not one that counts whether DePo and Theo were both General Managers of teams in the postseason in 2004, or one that records that Epstein's Red Sox did something that Gorman's or Duquette's did not. Success is apparently not the measure of success, it is instead what the now-unfashionable smart kids were damned well supposed to deliver, and the moment that they didn't, they were there to be scapegoated.

These are not the same stories, this particular tale of two cities, but I would suggest that both team's decisions to make changes at the top reflect a battle over fundamentals, not just over the way the game is operated, but how it is supposed to be remembered, and more basically, who is supposed to be remembered. In Beantown, the capacity for jealousy is what poisoned what was supposed to be a model for success in contemporary front office management. Sadly, a team president seems unusually insecure over his place in history. But when America was treated to the bizarre spectacle of Tom Werner, the man who Huizenganated San Diego baseball, suddenly sharing in the credit for Boston's victory in 2004, we were reminded of the truth in the adage that victory has many fathers, while defeat is an orphan.

In Larry Lucchino, we have a man who long ago cultivated the legend that he's somehow solely responsible for Camden Yards, and devil take those who remember otherwise. Especially those who might recall his stated desire from the time, which was to tear down the warehouse that today is the signature feature of Baltimore's ballpark. Such a man is jealous of his place in history, coveting the past and the present as comfortably as he feigns disinterest in taking up Czar Bud's scepter the day after the car salesman steps down. In his need to portray himself as the father of victory, he has instead become like Cronus, so jealous of his prerogatives that he would rather consume the future than truly shepherd it. He came to Boston with a reputation for self-promotion, and this latest incident makes it plain that in Lucchino's world, he's the star of his own show.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 17:24 (nineteen years ago)

I'd do Larry myself, but I have class in a few hours.

David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 17:40 (nineteen years ago)

god she's a great writer

Jams Murphy (ystrickler), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:28 (nineteen years ago)

BP must be a little pissed off -- this can't be good for sales of "Mind Game".

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 20:12 (nineteen years ago)

You'd think perhaps at first, but I dunno the prospective purchaser's outlook... "Oh, this makes 2004 old/irrelevant news?"

Has Lord Gammons weighed in?

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 20:51 (nineteen years ago)

Maybe Gammo can kidney punch Lucchino.

David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 20:54 (nineteen years ago)

Talk radio wags here have surmised that it is Lucchino's (or someone close to him) violation of a self-imposed gag order by both parties that shifted the tide.

Supposedly Theo was not talking to the press during the negotiations, citing a pact of silence made between himself and the Sox. But on Sunday Dan Shaugnessy wrote a fawning column about Lucchino in the Boston Globe that contained inside info Theo knew could have only come from a few insiders. It happened again on Monday in a Globe story that called the deal done and revealed the terms.

After those two betrayals I guess Theo did a bit of soul searching and realized he did not want to continue being employed in this kind of environment and rejected the offer.

zaxxon25 (zaxxon25), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 20:57 (nineteen years ago)

I guess Gammo was on ESPN News earlier saying Lucchino had nothing to do w/ the leak, which is understandable, given Lucchino's always been guy always playing on the up-and-up and would never, for instance, bad mouth the now-GM of the D-Backs to the Colorado Rockies GM for FUBARing a supposedly done deal that Lucchino hisself kibboshed.

David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 21:00 (nineteen years ago)

Here's the Shaugnessy's article, for those who haven't seen it. The overall tone, i.e. "hey Theo, just sign the contract like the little Lucchino bitch that you are and get back to work", is really sickening. Also, the whole "we know too much now" angle is twisted as well -- yes, we do know too much, BECAUSE YOU JUST PRINTED IT IN THIS ARTICLE, YOU DUMB FUCK.

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The news conference should be at Fenway tomorrow afternoon. Halloween. No tricks. No boos. Look for the traditional handshake and jack-o-lantern smiles from Theo Epstein and Larry Lucchino. They'll say they look forward to many more years working together to bring championship baseball to Boston.

It's too bad it went this far. Too bad it took this long. Theo's old contract expires at midnight tomorrow, and there were a few hours last week when it felt like he might actually leave the Sox.

Now it looks as though Theo's new deal will be announced tomorrow and life will return to normal on Yawkey Way. Theo can get back to business, trying to trade Manny Ramirez and figuring out what to do about center field, first base, third base, and the pitching staff for 2006.

The unfortunate part of the entire episode is that a lot of inside stuff went public. The father-son dynamic of Lucchino and Epstein has been unveiled before all of Red Sox Nation. The family linen was aired publicly and now every move will be examined for fingerprints: Theo or Larry? Did they agree? Did Theo have to talk Larry into it? Or was this some bigfoot move by Lucchino?

Theo Epstein is a truly remarkable young man from a truly remarkable family. He would be a success in any field of his choice and Boston is fortunate that he set out to have a career in baseball. He got to the mountaintop faster than anyone in the history of the game and deserves to be paid accordingly. But he did not get there alone. And that's why he's not signed yet. That's why this has taken so long.

The Theo-Larry story is as old as the Bible. Mentor meets protege. Mentor teaches young person all he knows. Eventually, the prodigy is ready to make it on his own and no longer feels he needs the old man. That's what we've seen unfold on Yawkey Way, and that's why the Theo deal is not done yet.

Larry taught Theo too well and now he is looking in the mirror as he tries to hammer out a deal with the GM he made in his own image. Both are merely doing what they are trained to do. In Theo's case, he's doing what Larry trained him to do.

What is alarming -- for the future of the Sox franchise -- is Theo's sudden need to distance himself from those who helped him rise to his position of power. Lucchino and Dr. Charles Steinberg are a pair of Red Sox executives who ''discovered" Theo when he was a student at Yale. They picked him out of thousands of wannabe interns. They hired him in Baltimore and then took him to San Diego with them. They held his hand and drove him places during his Wonder Years. They urged him to get his law degree. And when they set up stakes at Fenway Park, they fought vigorously to bring him home. A year later, when Billy Beane got cold feet, Lucchino turned to 28-year-old Theo and made him the (then) youngest GM in the history of baseball.

And now Theo ''bristles at the notion of Steinberg and Lucchino taking credit for his success."

The above sentence appeared in a book I wrote on the 2004 Red Sox championship season and it was the only line Theo objected to. He thought it would get him in trouble with Lucchino. But it didn't. Lucchino laughed when he read it, and seemed genuinely amused that Theo would worry about any publicity regarding their relationship.

That was in March. And now we are in October. And a considerable amount of misinformation has been spilled.

Let's start with Theo being a ''baseball guy" while Larry is a lawyer with a lofty title (CEO). Granted, Epstein is a student of the game, but it's a mistake to say he knows more about baseball than Lucchino or anyone else in the Red Sox baseball operation. Theo is 31 years old and did not play baseball past high school. He spent four years at Yale and three years at law school. That hardly leaves time for much more than rotisserie league scouting. He can read the data and has a horde of trusty, like-minded minions, but we're not talking about a lifetime of beating the bushes and scouting prospects. Lucchino was a good high school baseball player and made it to the NCAA Final Four with Princeton's basketball team. He came to baseball as an executive in 1979, when Theo was 5 years old. That doesn't make him George Digby or Ray Boone, but he's not Les Otten, either.

Lucchino-bashers, and they are legion, maintain that he repeatedly has undermined Theo and on occasion killed deals made by Epstein and the minions. There was one, for sure. When Theo's assistant Josh Byrnes (hired by Arizona as GM Friday) made a deal with Colorado, Epstein thought he had a better deal with another club and requested that Lucchino fall on the sword and invoke the ownership approval clause to kill the Rockies deal. Accustomed to people hating him, Lucchino took the fall, killing the deal and saving Epstein.

It was charged last week that Sox management conducted a ''smear campaign" against Epstein. How? Where's the campaign? It was correctly reported that Theo turned down a three-year deal at $1.2 million per year. That's a smear campaign? There have been no quotes from Sox management on the negotiations. Lucchino and Epstein called me together at home Friday night but said they could say nothing about Theo's contract talks because they had not spoken with other outlets. So much for the Globe's ''home-court advantage" (the Globe's parent company, The New York Times Company, owns 17 percent of the Red Sox). So much for the cartel. In fact, Epstein's minions probably have done more talking about Theo's situation than anyone in Sox management. When postseason baseball visited Chicago, at least one nationally known Lucchino-hating Epstein source was trashing the Sox CEO to anyone who'd listen.

It was downright hilarious to read agent Scott Boras and Johnny Damon claiming the Sox weren't communicating with them because of Theo's own contract status. This from an agent who likes to make his deals on the eve of spring training. If there's silence from the Sox regarding Damon, maybe it's because the Sox are waiting for Johnny and Scott to get off their ridiculous five-year contract demand.

It would be a mistake for Epstein to think he can separate Lucchino from John Henry. Henry is a quiet man, but he is not a dolt. He believes in and trusts Lucchino. He admires his young GM, but it would be a mistake for Epstein to force Henry to choose.

This is how life works. People disagree. It doesn't mean they hate one another or can't work together. Lucchino and Epstein are mature enough to move forward from this regrettable past week.

Publicly, Theo always has talked about ''mutual respect" regarding his relationship with dad Larry. They know that their silence produced considerable speculation and acrimony. Fans and media members have taken shots and taken sides. The Sox tomorrow will present a united front. It still can work. The only unfortunate aspect is that the embers will smolder for years to come. We know too much now.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 21:57 (nineteen years ago)

The REAL Reason Theo's Gone

That guy right there isn’t just Boston Globe columnist Dan Shaughnessy, strikingly handsome man; he’s also Dan Shaughnessy, Most Hated Man In Boston. As if Shaughnessy hadn’t caused Bostonians enough pain throughout the years with his Curse business, he might very well be the man most responsible for the departure of the one man who brought a World Series title to Boston.

From many accounts, Epstein was close to saddling back up with the BoSox until Shaughnessy wrote Sunday’s column that basically implied Epstein was an ingrate who upset his “mentors”. From Boston blog Sheriff Sully, via Baseball Musings:

Only one man on this planet could’ve given Shaughnessy the information he had. The way in which Shaughnessy presented it was nothing short of sickening. He defended the Sox and [Sox president Larry] Lucchino no less than a dozen times. Bob Ryan would’ve resigned before writing that bogus crap and the Globe knows that. However, Lucchino more than likely didn’t even bother going through channels and just called Shaughnessy himself.

The Sheriff — who says the affair has “all but ended my lifelong love affair with the Boston Red Sox” — is hardly alone. The Boston Herald — which kicked the Globe’s ass on this story repeatedly — quoted sources saying, “A leading contributing factor, according to sources close to the situation, was a column in Sunday’s Boston Globe in which too much inside information about the relationship between Epstein and his mentor, team president and CEO Larry Lucchino, was revealed — in a manner slanted too much in Lucchino’s favor.” Some samplings from Sons Of Sam Horn show just how pissed Sox fans are:

“F’in CHB angling for a new curse book, I’m betting. I’m vomitting.”

“I seriously want a retraction, explanation and apology from Dan Curly-Q. I mean, I was his last defender. He may now have played a hand in the set-back of this organization. Should he sell another book profiting off this mess (or others) he should and will burn in hell. Next to Larry Lucchino.”

“CHB, from a March interview:
RSN: So, you feel that the story is more important than the team as far as being a writer goes?
DS: Absolutely. Always root for the story! That is what it is all about.
Not that I’ll read it, but he’s got one now.”

To use the words of a Deadspin reader, “I mean, shouldn’t fans be at the doors of the Globe this morning with torches and pitchforks?”

(By the way, “CHB” is short for “Curly Haired Boyfriend,” a term Carl Everett once used to describe Shaughnessy. For much more on this story than we can provide, we highly encourage you to check out Boston Sports Media and Dan Shaughnessy Watch.)

gear (gear), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 22:20 (nineteen years ago)

CARL coined CHB? No way!

David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 22:24 (nineteen years ago)

Boston Globe’s Dan Shaugnessy called him Jurassic Carl in many columns because Everett doesn’t believe in dinosaurs. Everett responded by calling him Gordon Edes’ “Curly Haired Boyfriend”.

gear (gear), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 22:32 (nineteen years ago)

gear: what is that "The REAL Reason Theo's Gone" article from?

gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 23:30 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.deadspin.com/sports/baseball/the-real-reason-theos-gone-134480.php

gear (gear), Wednesday, 2 November 2005 00:01 (nineteen years ago)

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/051101

Sports Guy weighs in; says similar things wrt Luccino v. Theo; references semi-obscure Peggy Lee tune.

Jimmy Mod Is The Damnation (The Famous Jimmy Mod), Wednesday, 2 November 2005 05:31 (nineteen years ago)

argh, he started off with that 'they're better off without A-Rod being the best player in the game for the next eight years' BS.

Are You Nomar? (miloaukerman), Wednesday, 2 November 2005 05:33 (nineteen years ago)

This has all the makings of a new curse.

gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 2 November 2005 05:51 (nineteen years ago)

haha i thought the same thing gygax

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 2 November 2005 06:15 (nineteen years ago)

That was one of Sports Guy's better columns as of late. He hit a good balance between anecdotes and analysis/actual journalism instead of 90210 jokes.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Wednesday, 2 November 2005 07:09 (nineteen years ago)

Clearly it's a sign of the end times in RSN.

One more person says the C word, and it's go time.

David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 2 November 2005 07:18 (nineteen years ago)

And here come the offers...

gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 3 November 2005 23:19 (nineteen years ago)

i hear theo's touring south america next year with pearl jam. seriously.

tobo (tobo), Friday, 4 November 2005 15:19 (nineteen years ago)

MORE COWBELL THEO!

David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 4 November 2005 15:34 (nineteen years ago)

It is too bad Theo planned his vacation a bit late, he could have gone on the road with Rickey Williams and come up with a new reality show for Fox.

Earl Nash (earlnash), Friday, 4 November 2005 16:22 (nineteen years ago)

I was at the Celtics v. Pistons game last night in the media room downstairs; there's 2:00 left to go in the 2nd quarter and who should walk in by himself? Dan Shaughnessy. He is very tall and very fleshy in person and as he got himself a cup of coffee he was looking about the nearly empty room with tired, paraniod, suspicious, nervous eyes... I tried to explain to others in the crew (who were not baseball fans) what was going on... I thought it was hilarious.

Jimmy Mod Is The Damnation (The Famous Jimmy Mod), Sunday, 6 November 2005 03:11 (nineteen years ago)

has Shaughnessy had a follow-up column? I imagine the guy's cred is completely shot at this point, moreso than it apparently was before.

gear (gear), Sunday, 6 November 2005 05:05 (nineteen years ago)

Fortune Mag on l'Affaire Theo:

http://www.fortune.com/fortune/ceo/articles/0,15114,1130113,00.html?promoid=preview

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 18 November 2005 22:20 (nineteen years ago)


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