Feds: Bonds trainer admits giving steroids to baseball players

i fear for giambi and pujols.

I fear for Sammy.

but i have unhealthily blind faith in Bonds unless he's proven guilty of steroid abuse. he has always supported drug testing in baseball and in my mind, is not a dishonest person. in 2002 when he hit 73 HRs, he was not as cut (ie, he was downright chubby) as he was in 2003 ("only" 45 HRs). Much of his hitting prowess can be attributed to things not related to muscle mass (vision, patience, batspeed, memory of pitchers/pitches, etc.)

I mean who knows, though? People can indeed bulk up without steroids. But then again....arghh.

It's gonna be interesting when it all comes out.

Sosa always was strong, but as Harry Caray said LONG before anyone else that Sammy could be a hall of famer if he could lay off pitches out of the strike zone.

The year round professional training has changed many players careers. Very few players were training even in the 80s like many stars do today.

Add the weight training, the smaller ball parks, Denver, 20 to 40 pitchers in the league from expansion that probably shouldn't be in the majors and you get guys like Bonds, Sosa, McGwire and others hitting HRs like no tomorrow.

Look at someone like Bret Boone, who is a good player, but I very much doubt would hit with anywhere near the power he does today if he played in the 70s.

Could you imagine what guys like Mike Schmidt or Dave Parker would have done with training like today?

Put it this way, Bonds year was extraordinary, but I think his 73 is somewhat comprable to George Foster hitting 52 in 1977 or Fielder hitting 51 in 1990.

Bonds -73 (next closest Sosa 64)
Foster -52 (next closest Burroughs 41)
Fielder -51 (next closest McGwire 39)

oh what a time that was for him.

then he sucked

"The bottom line is that I did purchase vitamins from that company, being out there and working out with Barry Bonds," Sheffield said. "Besides that, I don't know what else can come with that. I've been an honorable guy. I've been outspoken about testing guys. And anybody that wants me to say I'll take the challenge of taking a test, I'll be the first guy up there."

Bonds welcomes drug testing in baseball -- ``They can test me every day if they choose to,'' said Bonds, who says he's right about his 228 playing weight.

His neck looks a lot thinner.

didn't that used to be larry walker?

note:
bonds is 18/50 (.360 BA, 7 HRs, 3 2Bs = .840 SLG) w/ 5 BBs (.411 OBP, 1.251 OPS) vs. neagle

and 3/9 (.333 BA) w/ 2 BBs (.455 OBP, .899 OPS) vs. wendell

some background:
neagle also hasn't had an ERA under 4.50 in the past 4 seasons (including an Estes-esqe 7.90 last year) and got charged with a DUI 5 months ago.

wendell got into a near-scuffle with his hometeam fans while struggling last season with the phillies prompting his journey to colorado.

Well Turk, ever wonder why you're the type of player that hasn't earned the respect?

because he faced too many juiced up batters?

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:r496T6qgwYAJ:philadelphia.comcastsportsnet.com/news/images/081903-turk.jpg

The implications are as clear as the fear in Turk Wendell's eyes when Barry Bonds steps to the plate.

Bonds is big, strong and lethal at the plate, Bonds takes steroids, Bonds is a fraud, Bonds' records should be wiped from the books and Bonds should just go to hell because we never liked him in the first place anyway.

Wendell -- a man who wears a chain of animal teeth around his neck, mind you -- says Bonds is a steroid user. Wendell may be an active player, but he's just the latest to join the Bonds-bashing bandwagon. The Bonds-on-steroids issue isn't about presumption of innocence before guilt. It isn't about steroids. It's not about putting an "asterisk" next to Bonds' 73 home runs. I don't even think it's an issue of race.

It's really about another chance for the media to jump all over a man they love to hate and a player they love to discredit.

Food for thought: Barry Bonds is listed at 6-2, 228 pounds. Brett Favre is listed at 6-2, 225. I'm sure both totals come in a little light.

Maybe it's time to blow up all the Bonds criticism.

Yet, as one columnist wrote a couple week ago, after suggesting the Bonds "story" can no longer be ignored: "It's the drugs, stupid. It's always been the drugs."

More food for thought: You know how many times Bonds has hit 50 home runs in a season? Once. You know how many times he's led his league in home runs? Twice. You know how many writers suggest Bonds is the smartest hitter in the game, that he knows which pitch is coming, that his eyes and patience allow him to wait for exactly the pitch he can drive out of the park, that what makes him superman isn't all the home runs he hits, but the way he does it, despite drawing all those walks, which puts him on base a must-be-a-misprint more than 50 percent of the time? Very few.

But of course, nobody likes Bonds anyway -- writers or opposing pitchers. So bring him down when you can. Say that he's nothing without the drugs, nothing but a cranky, sour SOB, that deep in his soul he's not this good, because nobody can really be this good, nobody can put up these softball numbers in the major freakin' leagues.

Freak? Yes, Bonds is a freak.

Steroids? Maybe. Or maybe it's just a man who regulates his body to optimal performance by staying away from those In-N-Out burgers that Jason Giambi craves so much. We don't know, and surely Turk Wendell doesn't either. Bonds has sculpted himself to his current frame from a lean 185 pounds as a rookie, and thus must be using steroids, as writers and talk-jock hosts love to point out? Means nothing. Look at Henry Aaron. When young, he was built exactly like a young Barry, long and lithe; by the time he was hitting No. 715, he had expanded and added bulk. All I know is that pitchers feared both Henrys.

Asterisks next to all those records? Don't even bother humoring us with that.

Race? Maybe, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

__________________________

A few good points, but pretty pro-Bonds rah rah. I really have come around to earlnash's logic above...

Bonds breaking the record with Sosa on his heels... even Sosa (whoops was that bat corked?) has doubts about Bonds.

Bonds has bulked up into a very big man, all they have to do is run a clip of him playing with the Pirates in the early 90s and it is very evident.

That being said, he was a very good hitter 10 years ago, that hit for average and power (hitting 25 HRs in 90, is probably like hitting 35-40 today) before he bulked up.

Whether or not he has had additional illegal chemicals that helped that bulk up, I don't know and I very much doubt that it will ever be proven without a doubt either way. It is just as possible that he gained that bulk through just working his ass off. The guy has been at this high leve for a few years, if it was 'roids, eventually that stuff breaks you down hard, which hasn't been the case with Bonds.

I think the four expansion teams bringing in more shitty pitchers in the league and the complete breakdown of the finances of the game for the majority of the league has as much to do with the inflated hitting stats as anything. The more I think about it, the salary differences between clubs at the top and bottom is probably as important as anything, as certain teams pretty much have meatball pitching outside of maybe a couple of guys.

I still think that if you put someone like Schmidt or Willie Mays or even Babe Ruth playing in todays game, they would be right up there with someone like Bonds, perhaps even more impressive.

(Yay I scooped it!)

"Barry Bonds does something at the plate that no other human does and it has nothing to do with steroids. He has superior baseball skills. He's superior with his eyes and his ability to recognize pitches."

http://www.asstastic.org/images/sosa_sox.jpg http://www.asstastic.org/images/bonds_pirates.jpg

I'm no doctor, but I can't help but notice that other people don't go through a dramatic head size increase in their 30s...

http://www.asstastic.org/images/griffey.jpg

The whole house of cards is starting to come down, and I'm loving it. Just watch those power numbers continue to drop this year.

  Homer: Please please please, I want to make the team.  [catches Roger Clemens]
          Clemens, did I make the team?
   Roger: You sure did!
   Homer: I did!  Woo-hoo!  Woo-hoo!  In your face, Strawberry!
   Roger: Wait a minute, are you Ken Griffey, Jr.?
   Homer: No.
   Roger: Sorry.  Didn't mean to get your hopes up.

Wasn't Steve Sax the 2nd baseman in that episode? Sweet crap, that's awful.

sort of related: in bob ryan's column in todays boston globe johnny damon all but says jason giambi has used 'roids in the past.

# Player           Pos How recruited              Fate
- ---------------- --- -------------------------- ------------------------
1 Steve Sax         2B playing at jazz club       six life sentences
2 Wade Boggs        3B                            punched out by Barney
3 Darryl Strawberry RF                            pulled for pinch hitter
4 Jose Canseco      LF baseball card convention   saving burning house
5 Don Mattingly     1B washing dishes at home     kicked off team
6 Ken Griffey, Jr.  CF                            overdose of nerve tonic
7 Mike Scioscia     C  deer hunting               radiation overdose
8 Ozzie Smith       SS touring Graceland          lost in Mystery Spot
9 Roger Clemens     P                             thinks he's a chicken

He was being a dick (quel surprise), accosting writers for not revealing their sources, accusing everyone of lying at some point, saying they should have asterisks put after their names, talking about how proud he is that Dodgers fans hate him and give him a hard time when he plays in LA, and on and on and I was laughing my ass off watching this stuff.

(this is from someone who actually found himself sympathizing with Barry during the broadcast!)

transcript

BARRY BONDS: As cheating? I don't -- I don't know what cheating is. I don't know cheating, if steroid is going to help you in baseball. I just don't believe it. I don't believe steroids can help you, eye/hand coordination, technically hit a baseball, I just don't believe it and that's just my opinion."

That's an answer worthy of Dubya himself (except it's a lie, he does know.)

Milo, believe it or not, there IS no discernable correlation between slathering on the joy juice and improving the skill set that contributes to being a good hitter, outside of bullshit conjecture and Canseco-esque eyeballing! (cf. "he is looking bigger" + "he is having monster year" DOES NOT EQUAL "he is on steroids" + "steroids are making him a better hitter") It's true until proven otherwise!

Not that it'll stop Alex & other like-minded folk to come back to this bastion of interweb oneupsmanship and at once both piss on A) the fact that there is no actual evidence to support or deny the claim that performance-enhancing drugs improve performance and B) the folks on this thread that are actually bothering to give the aforementioned fact (yes, FACT) some credence and voice any benefit of the doubt in the rudest, most obnoxious manner possible. Because, of course, it's soooo obvious that 2 + 2 = GUILTY!, and anyone that suggests otherwise doesn't have the power in their brainpan to successfully wipe their own ass. Yeesh times 5 trillion.

Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. And this "oh it doesn't improve your ability to see the ball" or "allow you to make better contact" thing is a fucking smokescreen, Dave. What do steroids and HGH do (at the very fucking least)? They allow you to train harder and longer and they make you stronger (that is far from being an unproven fact.) That means you can play more me games and hit the ball harder when you do hit it (and probably pitch the ball harder when you pitch it.) If you can't see how THAT might just possibly oh possibly enhance one's ability to play baseball well then you've got problems that can't possibly be addressed by interweb oneupsmanship.

Alex, I may be in the Bay Area in June for A's v Mets, if you wanna arm-wrestle.

Yes, steroids & HGH allow athletes to train harder and gain strength and all of that grrr testosterone stuff. (Of course, from what I've heard and read, use of 'roids also leads to physiological deterioration and a susceptibility to injury, so, you know, there's another enhancement.)

All I know is that there's more to baseball than just throwing hard and swinging hard, and for you to not acknolwedge THAT simple super-obvious fact (in between the "bullshits") makes your ranting and raving little more than frantic myopic leg-humping.

I think we need to form a Fight Club and just beat the crap out of each other (if only because whenever someone posts to this thread - regardless of which side they take - I want to punch them and myself).

Haha I'll start taking 'roids RIGHT now to not improve my performance then.

"All I know is that there's more to baseball than just throwing hard and swinging hard"

Who the fuck is ignoring that fact?!?! Look no doubt that Barry is the most successful baseball user of steroids BECAUSE he's probably the best position player who has EVER taken steroids (he's always had a fantastic eye and been a great great hitter.) He's one of the great players ever and has been since he broke into the game. But there is no doubt in my mind (and there should be NO doubt in yours) that his sudden ability to hit towering HRs at a RATE far far higher than he ever did before was directly affected by his sudden growth in musculature and that that muscle growth is in no way not a function of his habit of taking certain substances.

"What did redjuice and "players' coffee" do?"

Now as I said earlier--perhaps on another thread, I am EXTREMELY suspicious of the idea that players were actually taking what most folks think of as being "speed" (crystal, crank, benzidrine, dexydrine) every day of the season for entire careers. That doesn't mean I don't think players do/did it occassionally or that they didn't take all other manner of uppers, but the idea that anyone can take real genuine I'm not gonna sleep at all tonight speed that much and not 1) go insane and 2) seriously destroy their liver and their body very very quickly and 3) be very very noticeably tweakin' every time they were interviewed seems extremely hard for me to fathom. So I don't know what the effect of the stuff they were/are taking was/is, but I will bet your ass an overpriced beer from Network Associates Coliseum that whatever it was/is, it is probably less illegal, less harmful and less effective than taking steroids is.

that's over the LONG TERM. in the short term is another story.

Amen to that.

Essence of Sheehan on BP today:

"Bonds' relationship with the media is a huge part of this story, and it makes it hard to take the coverage without a whole quarry of salt, because there's not even a pretense of objectivity any longer. The two parties dislike each other, and that impacts the coverage. Bonds won't provide information, so the media substitutes his disdain for it and hand-waves the rest...

Bonds is facing these questions in part because he was betrayed by the system. His grand-jury testimony, and that of others, was leaked to the media. That is the biggest crime in this situation to date, and almost no one has addressed it with the same gusto as they have the connections between Bonds and his personal trainer. Where are the investigation and the indictments for that crime?

...Until we have more information, all the information, and can analyze this issue with the same rigor that we do this trade or that free-agent signing, it's incumbent upon us to make that most dissatisfying of statements:

I don't know."

I'm sure that some idiots who call into sports radio are on some "Barry would have been a stiff" shit, but they're not around. (And, you know, they're idiots.)

Why do people bring this up? That the leak was illegal does not alter the authenticity of its content. (Or else one of the many parties involved would have issued a statement: "I didn't say that.") Bonds admitted to using performance-enhancing drugs, but claimed he didn't know. Believe him or don't, but the dude copped to using them.

The WMD comparison is 87 flavours of Messed Up. She's saying "not speaking up about WMD's" = "not speaking up about steroids" = "lying". These aren't the same things at all. In the first case, the govt collected a bunch of so-called facts re:WMD's, and lied about them, saying it was a slam-dunk case. Nobody knows anything about steroids in baseball. There are no facts to question or criticise, only endless speculation about who is doping and who isn't (plus a few illegally leaked documents, the leaking and credibility of which are approximately as shady as the pre-war intelligence regarding WMD's in Iraq).

To recap: a) she thought Bonds was doping, b) she couldn't say that because she didn't have the facts, c) so she "lied", d) oh btw, in spite of a), b), and c), she still thinks Bonds is doping. She doesn't even understand what "lying" is.

I don't see where or how the first three even come close to refuting the idea that Bonds was/is doping.

BTW, gygax! is this the stellar reporting I am missing by not reading the Chronicle?

one ophthalmologist's opinion

all?!?!? there hasn't been a single person on this thread who has made that claim. find another strawman, pls.

To all none of us then.

In fact, according to MLB's hat sizing scale... 7 3/8 qualifies as a "Large".

I am the same height and about 10-20# lighter as Barry but I actually have a bigger hat size (7 1/2 = extra large).

;-)

The cap worn by Giants players on the field in Barry's official size. In no way does that translate to "a hat worn by Barry Bonds" or "definitive proof of Barry's hat size."

http://www.psacard.com/articles/article3548.chtml
Undated article written by the definitive professional sports authenticator who talks about ways of authenticating game-worn players' hat sizes and mentions Bonds' measurement of 7 1/4".

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5133127357
eBay auction for an Upper Deck authenticated 2004 game-worn Bonds hat (also 7 1/4")

The recent news about the FBI tipping off baseball officials to steroid problems back in 1993-4 is a far, far greater issue and it has already been forgotten. Unlike lone GM's, they had the power to institute actual change and chose not to.

1. talking with other GM's!
2. making sure they're in compliance with MLB and MLBPA rules!

OTOH, MLB has the power to negotiate or institute league-wide policies with teeth.

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