Why Did They Retire?

There have been a lot of great players recently who went to shit in only a year or two (McGwire, Sosa, Bagwell, Belle, Vaughn, Palmeiro) and fans 50 years from now will probably wonder why those guys broke down while guys like Bonds and Ryan Howard were able to play forever.

So how many years did Howard end up playing? Seems like only last year that he was Rookie of the Year.

Lou Whitaker?

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/whitalo01.php

I guess he was breaking down due to injuries ... but there was hardly any decline in his rate stats.

his obp was awesome! i did notice him and Trammell retired within a year of eachother.

There's a great article about Whitaker by Bill Parker on ESPN's Sweetspot blog:

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/7503/the-bbwaas-worst-mistake

He makes a really convincing argument, IMO. We've talked about this a bit on the HOF threads, but I'm also becoming more and more convinced that anyone in the all-time top 10 at their position should be in the HOF (e.g. Jim Edmonds).

Whitaker's weakness is two-fold: 1) his greatest value came from walks and the value of walks is criminally under-appreciated and 2) he never threw up an MVP caliber seasons. Those things will hurt Edmonds too (perhaps slightly less so since he was a greater offensive force even relative to his era).

Actually Edmonds did have two top-five MVP votes. It's kind of hard to believe it took until Edmonds was 25 for him to become an MLB regular.

Worth noting next time someone argues for example "oh Cameron Maybin is done stick a fork in that dude look as his SO/BB ratio in the minor leagues, etc" Jim Edmonds minor league stats are very meh and his SO/BB ratio was even worse than Maybin's was. Some folks take weird paths to greatness (not arguing that Maybin will be great obv, just that he still could be.)

Yeah, those are fair criticisms of Whitaker (and he discusses them in the article). Not putting up any monster seasons is a big negative if you want to argue that someone belongs in the HOF, even for a second baseman.

Great hitters from the 80's are really underrated right now because they're (unfairly) compared with the great hitters of the 90's (who are similarly overrated). This probably won't change anytime soon either, with all of the major 90's and 00's stars hitting the HOF ballot in the next few years.

I know, I know--not again.

James had a really interesting thing on Trammell and Whitaker once that tried to explain why Trammell got a certain amount of attention and Whitaker got none. Now that Trammell himself gets overlooked in the HOF voting, that may make less sense than it did when it was originally written. Anyway, I'll see if I can dig it up tomorrow and summarize some of what he wrote.

But Trammell is still on the ballot and Whitaker didn't even make it through one pass.

I know...there's no contradiction between what James wrote and that fact; he was trying to explain why he though Whitaker was badly underrated. (Unless the contradiction you see is between me saying Trammell gets overlooked in the HOF voting and the fact that he's still on the ballot. Still on there, yes--but at 22.4% in his 9th year and with lots of new people coming on, I don't know how promising his chances are.)

Oops, wrong vote--Trammell's at 24.3% in his 10th year. He's made incremental gains for the past three ballots, so, in view of Blyleven's election, maybe it's too soon to write him off altogether.

Yeah I'm not arguing Trammell is going to get in, just that even in HoF voting he's still gotten more attention/respect than Whitaker.

I may have found the Whitaker/Trammell thing...I'm not sure; I found something in the '91 Baseball Book, but it's more general than I remembered. Also more pointed. After showing that their Games/Runs/RBIs/OBA/SA were virtually identical to that point in their careers, James put a lot of the perceived differences between the two down to race: "In spite of this, there, is, believe it or not, a widespread belief among the Detroit public that Trammell is a tough, agressive player who has built himself up to this level by working hard, while Lou is just...well, a kind of shiftless black guy who has a lot of ability but hasn't done much with it. This appalling attitude, as close to overt racism as you can get without ruining your linen, is expressed freely in the Motor City media." He also points out, derisively, that "Trammell is a visible on field 'leader,' a holler guy; Whitaker is quiet, laid back. Sometimes he's a little bit of a space cadet."

Can someone remind me why Will Clark retired when he did? He was 36 and had a 964 OPS in his final season. He played 130 games that season too, so it wasn't injuries.

I'd probably bet that baseball got in the way of hunting season and Will Clark had enough money to not have to worry about having to travel and play baseball anymore.

That sounds exactly right for him. I doubt he's given the game a 2nd thought since retiring.

Clark comes in to talk to the young guys

NoTime briefly alluded to Belle above, but what exactly were the circumstances of his retirement--had he just worn out his welcome league-wide, was it physical, or were PEDs lurking in the background? I've forgotten. Even in an inflated era, 23 homers/103 RBI/.281/.342/.474 doesn't seem like an exit season at age 34.

I remember reading he was having physical problems -- back? arthritis? I can't remember the details.

Arthritic right hip, apparently.

That rings a bell. (Sorry.) Give him five more years, and he probably becomes a somewhat controversial HOF case.

AB's hips were falling apart.

Often stated pieces of trivia about the Niekro bros was that they go to the age where they couldn't react fast enuf to the comebacker; not that they couldn't keep pitching

what i remember about p-neeks was in his last few years of pitching he looked like he was 70 years old

Derrek Lee? I know his mid-career monster year was largely a product of the era (which may answer the question) and the park (Wrigley), but in his final season he ended with a huge September in Pittsburgh (.337, 7 homers, .584 slugging pct.) and pretty good numbers overall for the year. Was he injured, or did nobody want him? He was 35.

Should never assume...Lee's 2005 had nothing to do with Wrigley. He was .328/.425/.669 at home, with 24 home runs, and .342/.421/.654 on the road, with 22. 26 doubles at home, 24 on the road. 60 runs and 52 RBI at home, 60 and 55 on the road. Dead even.

there were rumors last summer of him pulling a roy oswalt and joining a team midseason, but i guess they never panned out, not sure why

was Ralph Kiner a huge lush who had to retire because of his drinking (what my dad told me growing up)? or was it really his back or knees?

(btw oswalt is 3-2, 2.16 in five starts for double-a tulsa and will probably join the rockies next week)

Back trouble for Kiner, according to Wikipedia; also mentions recurring salary disputes with Branch Rickey as his ticket out of Pittsburgh two years earlier. He was 32, coming off his worst season since he was a rookie, and the Indians released him. Only found one message-board post for a "Ralph Kiner alcohol" search, but the link won't work for me.

Derrek Lee turned down an offer from the Yankees this March. I think it was the sort of thing where he was only willing to play if somebody made him a nice offer

Related to the revived HOF thread:

Brian Downing:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/downibr01.shtml

He was one of the best old players ever, and could still rake even at age 40 and 41 (2.6 oWAR each year, 138 OPS+ at age 41).

Also, what about Doyle Alexander:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/alexado01.shtml

He retired after the '89 season, only two years removed from being the toast of baseball in '87. He did lead the league in losses and was 38, but had thrown 200 + IP for six straight years. His K rate took a dive and BB rate jumped, so I guess his stuff was gone? The '89 game logs seem to suggest this -- he had a good start to the year and steadily declined.

Billy Wagner is another closer that really hadn't lost anything when he hung it up. I think for some of these guys, they make so much money they just get tired of the job.

I don't remember the exact circumstances with Downing and Alexander, but looking at their career boxes, it looks to me like they had gone as far as they could. Downing's contract had expired and he was 41, so he probably just didn't have any offers (even though, as you say, he was still productive). Alexander had just gone 6-18 at age 38, with a worse-than-league ERA, and had pitched 19 years for eight different teams.

Downing makes me think of weightlifting, and that James used to name him as his favourite player. With Alexander, it's being carried off the field in '85 when the Jays clinched their first divisional title.

Brian Downing had one of the more unique batting styles with that totally open stance.

That too! Forgot about that--really unusual.

I think the pressures of playing baseball really drained Wagner, he'd made up his mind to retire before the season began. He'd had enough of the grind, I don't think it was the money.

Contract status probably did come into play with some of the older guys. Alexander took one year deals in '88 and '89, the Tigers didn't want him back and he would have had to search for a new team. Instead, he retired. In today's game, he would have signed a 3-4 year free agent deal after '87 and pitched until his arm fell off.

Chris Hoiles?

He popped up on the Baseball Reference photo-collage at the top left today. He had a fantastic year in '93 (.310/.416/.585, 29 HR, 162 OPS+), especially for a catcher, and received a few MVP votes. For the next five seasons, he settles in around 2.5 WAR and 17 or 18 HR a year. In his final season, still only 33, he hits 15 HR with a slash line of .262/.358/.476, his best slugging pct. since '93. Looked to be pretty good defensively too.

His Wikipedia page doesn't offer any explanation, though he did go on to coach at the university level--maybe he had a job all lined up.

His .994 career fielding percentage ranks ninth all-time among Major League catchers. Hoiles' career .837 on-base plus slugging percentage is seventh-highest all-time among major league catchers. His .467 slugging percentage is 11th highest all-time among major league catchers.

PED era, but still.

could no longer catch with a degenerative hip and bad back

willis otanez did not turn out to be a wise choice, tho

Paul Molitor and Moises Alou both could still swing the stick at the end of their career.

Molitor is one of the players that probably benefited most from the DH, as he could not stay healthy playing in the field. His counting stats would have been even more off the charts as he easily missed 3 seasons of games for injuries in his first decade of playing.

Molitor was definitely one of the best "old" hitters ever. 225 hits at age 39! He probably could have hung around for another couple of years as a pinch hitter if he wanted to.

I think Molitor pushed it about as far as he could. There was clear decline his last three years, he was 41, and, by his own standards (and in the context of peak-PED-era), he really wasn't much of a hitter his last year.

Dave Cash?

Steady and solid through the '70s, MVP votes three consecutive years, hits .321 with the Expos in 1979, has his first negative WAR year with the Padres in '80, gets released, and--at the age of 32--never plays again. Was no one interested, or did he just retire?

Cash went to spring training in 1981 but was released as the season started on April 4. He hit just .172 in the exhibition games for the Padres, yet it was still a shock to him to be let go. Cash said, “I know I hadn’t produced during the spring, but I was playing on a slightly injured knee. It occurred in batting practice, and the knee bothered me a bit after that. I’m not using it as an excuse, but it did have an effect.” After his release, he attempted to catch on with a team that would be a contender, but things never worked out.

Thanks...so he definitely wanted to play. I though he might have gone to Japan, which many players did at the time.

not Japan but...

In 1989, Cash played for the Orlando Juice of the Senior Professional Baseball Association. He hit .321 in 35 games with the team. The next season, he played for the Florida Tropics and hit .304 in 14 games before the league folded.

Javier Vázquez? His Wikipedia doesn't say anything about a career-ending injury.

In 2009, at the age of 32, he had a career year for the Braves: 6.2 bWAR, 4th in Cy Young voting. In 2010, he had the worst year of his career since his rookie season over a decade ago, but he bounced back in 2011 for the Marlins. He was 5-8 with a 5.23 ERA in the first half, but 8-3, 2.15 after the break. For the year, 2.8 WAR. In September of 2011, he was almost untouchable: 5 starts, 5-0, 0.71, 38 IP, 21 H, 36 K, 3 BB.

Granted free agency, never pitches in the majors again.

Appropriately, Vazquez’s final start, on September 27, came against the franchise that drafted him, but was now located in Washington, and it finished in dramatic fashion. He had gone all the way as the Marlins and Nationals were tied 2-2 with two out in the bottom of the ninth. Marlins manager Jack McKeon had already decided that Vazquez would go out for the 10th, but Bryan Petersen made the decision moot as he smacked a game-winning solo shot. It was a nice way to go out.

“I’ve been blessed to be in the big leagues for 14 years. I feel it’s time,” he said after the game. “I’m glad I’m pitching well because it would be tough retiring on a bad note.”

Although Vazquez never pitched after that, he did consider representing Puerto Rico in the 2013 World Baseball Classic, but knee surgery prevented him from participating.

he spoke of retirement after the season, citing all the years spent toiling on the mound away from his family as a factor that could make him decide to call it quits.

Retired so he could spend more time with his family? I thought only politicians do that.

If he had pitched another few years he had a great chance at 3000 K's and 200 wins, and could have retired with around 50-60 WAR. That's a Raffy Palmeiro type of semi-HOFer (rarely great, almost never among the best in the league, but durable and good for a long time).

Was definitely surprised at how strong (and consistent) his career box was.

Some guys seem to get a boost when they know it’s their last hurrah.
Could be he’d made up his mind after the first half of that last season.

Didn't realize how close he made it to 3000

I loved Vazquez for fantasy and would draft him every year even though he rarely had helpful rate stats. I don't think anyone thought of him as a potential HOFer while he was active, which might be one of the reasons he was willing to retire when he did

I was at the game in Montreal where he gave Dontrelle Willis his first loss. Always loved watching him pitch.

I seem to recall Vazquez got roasted pretty good in the NY media for his failed season in pinstripes.

His fellow ex-White Sox Mark Buehrle was another one of that time that seemed to be still 'professional starting pitcher' when he called it quits at age 36.

Those guys made so much money, it is not surprising they might look at all the travel and the crap and said - see you later.

Jermaine Dye?

Retired in 2009 after his age-35 season, no physical issues cited in his Wikipedia bio. He was coming off 27 HR/81 RBI, with a slash line of .250/.340/.453. For his last six seasons, his slash line was .276/.342/.515, including 44 HR/120 RBI in 2006 (5th in MVP voting), and 34/96 in 2008 (15th in MVP voting).

No one could have used him at DH?

Come Opening Day 2010, and Dye was still jobless. However, he only had himself to blame. He received offers from the Cubs, Brewers, and a $4 million deal with the Nationals, but turned them all down. A minor-league deal with the Dodgers presented itself, but he still declined. One former major-leaguer even dared to suggest that racism was to blame for Dye's unemployment.

Dye would ultimately announce his retirement in 2011, saying he was "at peace" with his decision, and that he would eventually like to get back into baseball.

https://www.batterypower.com/2016/5/23/11739800/braves-rewind-whatever-happened-to-jermaine-dye

So he did get offers (though for much less than the $11.5M he made in 2009).

.250/.340/.453 is probably pretty close to replacement level for a DH tbh. that 4mil deal would not have been a lowball

Comparable, to a degree, to yesterday's signing of Santana; one guy took the money, one walked away.

Yeah, I think the market for older DH-types just collapsed. Hideki Matsui was also 35 in 2009, MVP of the WS, nothing but solid years for the Yankees, and there wasn't much of a market for him. Went from making 13M/yr on a multi-year deal to 6M on a one year deal.

here's a guy i just remembered as a ChiSox stalwart, and glancing at his BR page it was wild how great his final season was.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/burnsbr01.shtml

the "why" however was a degenerative hip condition.

also: led the AL in bWAR as a rookie, and finished fifth in the ROY vote.

Not really a why-did-they-retire? candidate, more like a why-did-they-disappear? mystery. Rookie card that showed up on my FB wall:

https://i.postimg.cc/kXf19cgK/reggie.jpg

Madlock's the biggest star, so not a valuable card. But I noticed the bottom right corner: "There was another Reggie Sanders?"

Looked him up. Drafted in the 2nd round in '68, finally got some time in in '74 and played pretty well: 100 AB, .273/.308/.434. Ten percent better than league average, something to build on--and the Tigers were terrible at the time. (Also: hit a HR off Catfish Hunter in his first AB.)

That was it, the entirety of his MLB career. Wikipedia: "He was dealt from the Tigers to the Atlanta Braves for Jack Pierce in an exchange of minor-league first basemen on March 30, 1975. He was selected by the Chicago White Sox from the Braves in the Rule 5 draft on December 5, 1977." But he never had another AB in the majors. He did kick around the minors, and in '77 had a huge year for Durango in the Mexican League (AAA): .320, 28 HR, 119 RBI.

His Wikipedia page gives no explanation.

Shane Mack?

I came across something I wrote in a fanzine in the early '90s about him being underrated, so I looked him up on Baseball Reference.

His career starts slow in San Diego, then flourishes for the next five years in Minnesota. From 1990-94: .309/.375/.479, 130 OPS+, 5.3 WAR per 650 PA. Goes to Japan and has two good years, then comes back and has a good half-season in Boston (.315/.368/.438). Signs with the A's, is immediately traded to Kansas City, and has another good half-season (.280/.345/.449). They let him walk, he signs with San Diego, then retires without ever playing a game. He was 35.

Rusty Greer...Looking at answers for today's grid, the most games played by a Rangers-only player are Greer's 1,027. He was good! 100 RBI three times, .305/.387/.478 for his career, never hit under .270. Retired at 33. So I looked at his Wikipedia page: "Greer's aggressive style of play took a severe toll on his body, and he spent the remainder of his baseball career (i.e., after signing a big contract in 2002) undergoing and recovering from surgeries." He had two non-roster offers before the 2005 season but walked away.

I used Pascual Perez on Immaculate Grid today and was amazed when I started reading up on him. (Thought of him immediately as a Yankee, even though he was only there for two seasons.) I found out why he retired, but this seems like the best thread anyway.

The last five years of his career, Perez pitched 544 innings (82 starts) with an ERA of 2.81, which included a shortened 7-0, 2.30 season with the Expos. Over 11 years, he had one disastrous season--1-13, 6.14 with Atlanta--but many good ones, finishing with a 3.44 career ERA and 3.2 WAR/162 games. He was finished at age 34.

I'd forgotten much of his story: beanballs, wild theatrics on the mound, and drugs. He was suspended for a year between the 1-13 and 7-0 seasons, and then he was suspended again for a year in '91. I was wondering why he never came back from that. Steve Howe, after all, must have had 10 suspensions and kept getting another chance. Howe was white, and maybe that figured in, but there were Black players who rebounded after suspensions too. I'm assuming it was the drug problem itself more than the suspension that ended his career.

And then it gets worse--this I don't remember at all: "Pérez was found dead in his bedroom in San Gregorio de Nigua, Dominican Republic, on November 1, 2012, after being hit on the head repeatedly with a hammer in an apparent robbery. He was also stabbed in the neck." That's horrifying.

This is a "did" question, not a "why"--Raimel Tapia?

His inside-the-park grand slam from a couple of years ago showed up on my FB wall today, so I wondered what he was up to. BRef lists his last game as October 1, 2023, and I think they only specify that for official retirees. I don't remember any annoncement, though, and he played in the Dominican Winter League this year for the Estrellas Orientales (along with Yasiel Puig and Robinson Cano).

Well I found out the other day he was charged with domestic violence so maybe related?

Geez, didn't know that at all...that would certainly explain it.

the market probably isn't there for slap-hitting guys who don't run well or much despite some speed, and can't field.

though i don't doubt his career is probably over bc of the DV, maybe more as a tiebreaker compared to similar players with zero issues. unfortunately teams have shown they won't completely dismiss DV perpetrators strictly because of that, if they can play.

Putting aside the personal stuff, he was actually kind of interesting as a player. You describe him well, but he always seemed to be in the middle of something during his season in Toronto; he had a certain flair for making stuff happen, as I (perhaps selectively) recall.

Had no idea about the DV stuff. He was a guy I really wanted to like, and would have these bursts of putting it all together but then also these long stretches of lousy hitting and unimpressive fielding