foul balls

something came up in boston's game against the yankees saturday that got me wondering.

with posada on third and nobody out, austin kearns launched a towering fly ball to left field that curved foul. boston left fielder ryan kalish ran his little legs off trying to get there and just barely missed catching the ball as it bounced harmlessly off the top of the bleacher wall, foul.

now, why in the world did kalish try to catch this? posada would have tagged and scored. why not just let it drop for a foul ball?

a. instinct
b. if he hadn't at least tried to get under the ball, he would have looked like he was doggin' it

a. well his instinct should be to stop a run from scoring!
b. nobody would accuse him of dogging it if it were a smart play

i mean I have never knowingly seen a player purposely not make the catch in this circumstance and it just seems weird. yeah, the out's valuable but surely not more valuable than a run

wow I didn't know you could tag on a foul ball out. what if you try to catch it, miss (touches your body first) and it hits the ground? it's in play now?

only if the fielder is in fair territory

This never happens for the same reason why infielders don't drop pop-ups with a runner on first and less than two outs. The infield fly rule prevents people from doing this if there are runners on first and second, but there's nothing stopping anyone from doing it with a runner only on first.

It would be a "smart" play to risk the one out for the chance to get two, but it's deceitful and isn't in the spirit of the game (even though it's technically not against the rules).

but the infield fly rule doesn't apply to a foul ball played by an outfielder

and he doesn't have to drop it, he just has to not catch it - he's not faking anybody out and he's not trying for a double play

(nobody advances on a foul ball anyway!)

you probably won't believe this but there is a thread on this! will be hard to find admittedly, let me check.

I didn't mean that the infield fly rule can be literally applied here, just that intentionally dropping (or not catching) fly balls is considered deceitful and unsportsmanlike, which is why guys don't do it.

We could get into a discussion about why certain other deceitful things (e.g. pretending to be hit by a pitch) isn't considered unsportsmanlike but dropping fly balls is, but I wouldn't have a good answer for that.

I've seen it done once or twice this season. Booth guys didn't seem to act like it was a big deal.

i remember it was inspired by this play: http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?showall=true&boardid=53&threadid=39&bookmarkedmessageid=175

NoTimeBeforeTime, it wouldn't be deceitful - the tagging runner has to stick to the base until the ball is caught anyway

Shasta and WmC, i can accept that i'm just in the dark about this. but in that case i'm surprised that the commentators didn't start railing on kalish - "what was he thinking trying to catch that ball!?!"

would love to see that other thread for more clues

now, why in the world did kalish try to catch this?

it was def close enuf that it COULD have been fair from his angle.

posada would have tagged and scored.

this is not a sure thing.

why not just let it drop for a foul ball?

see #1

ok i half-heartedly searched and can't find it. bah. i swear!

ive often heard commentators vigorously debate this issue

i also remember a thread abt this b4

Maybe Sandbox?

BOOYA hahaha should've searched "foul" lol:

That old "fly ball to Right Field bending foul with a man on third with less than 2 outs" quandry...

although that was Right Field.

that thred is not helpful to this conversation

h8u

wow, i had no idea that dustan mohr basically ended his career in 2004 by diving for a foul ball that allowed the padres to score the winning run (and which basically ended the giants' playoff hopes)

from the newspapers the next day:

"The guys in the bullpen told me that they were yelling at Dustan to let it go because the ball was foul," Alou said. "But it is really hard for an outfielder to know whether it's foul or not. He caught it and he hit the mound right away. But he was not going to throw the runner out from that distance.

posada would have tagged and scored.

this is not a sure thing.

it was though - the ball was very very deep.

now, why in the world did kalish try to catch this?

it was def close enuf that it COULD have been fair from his angle.

he had to reach into the stands!! there isn't room for doubt here

this is not a sure thing.

it was though - the ball was very very deep.

posada is V slow and is not a gifted baserunner.

he had to reach into the stands!! there isn't room for doubt here

i'm saying that as a fielder, playing LF in the initial position that he was in, you run towards the ball and, if there's evidence it's going foul, you might let it (ort have the internal argument we are having here now). you could probably make the argument that he knows whether it's fair or foul because he's been playing for 20 years...

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm8/bigdmike/NewYankeeStadiumSeatingChart.jpg

still not a lot of foul territory @ NYS

if u let it drop then both dudes subsequently scored u'd feel fuckin foolish

http://deadspin.com/5609094/chivalry-is-dead-man-ducks-foul-ball-before-it-hits-girlfriend

Let us never forget

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wapNcP_7PPo

hahaha

also dud or dud: dumbass fans who interfere with balls in play

have you ever seen Posada run? easy double play on tagging up

it's not at all unsportsmanlike to let drop a ball going foul if you think a run will score - it's just a case-by-case thing, depending on how deep the ball is, who the runner is, how many outs there are, who else is on base, the score, what inning it is, etc. it's probably a dumb idea to ever let a ball like this drop unless the game is tied in the ninth inning or something; better to get the sure out than risk opening the floodgates. the answer to your question: either this whole process didn't even enter the fielder's head or he decided getting the out would be the smart thing

k3v otm

i know posada's slow, but on a ball that deep he's a lock to score. that kalish had to leap and crash into the wall of the bleachers just seals it. so kev yeah, i hear you that you don't want to "open the floodgates" but in a pitcher's duel, bottom of the 7th, you've got a 2-0 lead, runners on second and third with no out.. would you rather keep it right there and take your chances or guarantee 2-1, a runner on second and one out?

if you're asking me, the latter probably. get the out while you can - you'll look pretty silly if you let it drop and the next pitch gets hit for a single and two runs score

the interferers are not "fans," but ppl who show up at ballparks (the core of MLB's market now)

yeah i'd always take the out unless it's a tied/1-run game

in this situation almost any base hit ties it regardless of whether the runner on 3rd scores beforehand, so you don't want to give them 3 chances for a hit instead of 2

ok i can get with that

Morbs the "fan" didn't interfere by the way (replays show this) however i am totally on the same page re the yutzes who think they're part of the game

that thing just happened, j.d. drew caught a foul ball with the sox ahead by 1 and a runner on 3rd, 1 out. no chance of a play at the plate, game got tied up.

according to fangraphs WPA chart the play was very slightly negative for the sox.

Matt Joyce was the hitter. Dan Johnson was on-deck.

Hmm.

(Dan Johnson is from a place called COON RAPIDS, btw.)

Drew's comments to the press about that play were bizarre and helped confirm my belief that this is an undertheorized situation.

He said he actually intended to let it drop but looked down and saw that he had caught it "by accident".. !! (This is after vaulting over the bullpen mounds and being halfway into the stands.)