The Zing-free Thread Where Mark C Can Ask Everything He Needs to Know About Baseball that Daver Didn't Already Teach Him

And one of your friendly neighborhood ILBB posters will answer (I hope).

I already asked the "guy called Williams who pitched for the Yankees" question on the other thread!

But okay. When a sacrifice fly is hit (and caught), what determines whether the runners can run or can't? Is it the number of outs?

Why don't the runners running to first base try harder? It looks like loads of them could actually make it if they put in a bit of effort.

(thank you Felicity :))

REDEMPTION!

When a sacrifice fly is hit (and caught), what determines whether the runners can run or can't? Is it the number of outs?

W/ less than 2 outs, runners can advance as soon as the out is made -- not sure if it's actually predicated on the umpire's out signal, or simply the fielder making contact w/ the ball. Since a fly ball caught w/ 2 outs would end the half-inning, no one can advance (unless the out's not made). That's why you hear announcers say "runners are off w/ the pitch" when there are 2 outs and a full count on the hitter -- if the out's made, inning's over, but if it's not made, then the runners are free to advance / score as far as the play allows.

Why don't the runners running to first base try harder? It looks like loads of them could actually make it if they put in a bit of effort.

Some players are inveterate loafing slobs that don't give a rat's ass. Some players assume the play's a done deal, and are simply conserving their energy for more important plays (in the field, and on the basepaths). Some just aren't that fast. Some are one or all of these things -- they're usually called "Manny Ramirez." And then there are jagoffs / golden gods like David Eckstein, who hustle to first on a walk.

When a sacrifice fly is hit (and caught), what determines whether the runners can run or can't?

This is also highly dependent on which base the runner's on. Throwing to second base is the easiest throw to the infield from any spot in the outfield, which is why you rarely see a runner advance from first to second on a sac. fly. Likewise, throwing to 3B is harder for the RF and easier for the LF , which is why even slower runners will advance from 2B to 3B on a sac fly hit toward RF.

re: "the guy called williams"

not todd, was it?

I've asked my friend, JQ - I'll let you know what he says.

Thanks Matt and David! One little thing - when the hitter hits, the runners on base will automatically start running, right? But you're saying it only counts if they start running AFTER the ball is caught?

Yes.

If a ball is hit in the air, the runners have to go back and touch the base ("Tag up") and can only start running to the next base after the fielder has caught the ball. If the runner has not tagged up to his base on a fly ball, the fielder can the runner out by throwing the ball back to the base where the runner was before the runner gets there.

That's why, if you're lucky enough to see an OF make a spectacular diving / leaping catch when a runner's on base and it seems like the ball's not going to be caught, you'll see on-base dudes after the catch run like hell back to the base they started at (making sure to retag every base they've passed on their way back) while the defense tries to get the ball back into the infield as quickly as possible.

It's also why, after some sac-flys, you'll see pitchers step off the mound and throw to 3rd before pitching to the next batter -- that move is an appeal to the 3B umpire to determine whether the base runner left the bag before or after the catch was made. If the runner left before the catch, then he's out.

I have a question!

If a defensive player somehow manages to trap a hit fly ball / liner between his body and his glove / hand without the ball touching any part of the playing field, is that an out, or does the ball have to be transfered safely to a glove / hand before the out is registered?

A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of
a ball in flight and firmly holding it; providing he does not use his cap, protector, pocket or
any other part of his uniform in getting possession. It is not a catch, however, if
simultaneously or immediately following his contact with the ball, he collides with a player,
or with a wall, or if he falls down, and as a result of such collision or falling, drops the ball.
It is not a catch if a fielder touches a fly ball which then hits a member of the offensive team
or an umpire and then is caught by another defensive player. If the fielder has made the
catch and drops the ball while in the act of making a throw following the catch, the ball shall
be adjudged to have been caught. In establishing the validity of the catch, the fielder shall
hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball and that his
release of the ball is voluntary and intentional.

Why don't the runners running to first base try harder? It looks like loads of them could actually make it if they put in a bit of effort.

most will hustle if it's close but these guys have been doing this for decades, they know an out when they see one. it's fucking statistically irrelevant the one time busting-ass down the line will actually help. most dudes are just as likely to blow out a hammy as reach on an error or beat a throw.

they prefer not to

chicago kevin OTM

Re: hustling to first base -- see also every jerkwit that likes to prove their grit by sliding into 1B, thinking that sliding will actually get them to the bag faster (instead of thinking about things like friction & stuff). The special ones slide HEAD-FIRST into the bag.

Really, unless you're Ichiro-fast, or there's a run / game at stake (cf. Tom Berenger in Major League), hustling to first is really just for show. (NB: I might be wrong.)

I have a question: how there always been base coaches? What is the point of the one on first? Are some batters really that dumb?

Also, do the fielders on the bases wear much protection in case they get a set of cleats upside the ankle from the runner when he slides?

What first base coaches do:

- hold onto equipment (elbow pads, shin guards, batting gloves)
- time / note pitcher's move to 1st
- help determine if player should slide back into the bag on fly ball outs to LF/CF if the runner wandered off too far
- share kick-ass chili recipe
- provide on-field symmetry
- keep 1B and ump company during pitching duels
- save lives

"There's 2 outs, so run on everything. You know who's got a really bald head? That Don Zimmer. Huh."

chicago kevin OTM

mark you calendars.

to whoever initially asked the hustle-to-1B question, a lot of times the reason it looks like the runner couldve beat the throw with a little more effort is often because the fielders more or less time it that way, just to be pricks.

lol

Yeah especially they do that with pitchers to tire them out.

FYI Mark C: Such hijinx are reason #77 why I said, on the other thread, that baseball is a game played by 9 players. (Only in the National League, the One True League, do pitchers hit for themselves, as opposed to the "American" League where pitchers can rest while bastard Uruk-Hai children of Mordor hit for them. That is why Dave R would have been unable to answer that question.)

bastard Uruk-Hai children of Mordor

You make Jason Tyner cry!

The designated hitter rule does seem insane, but hey. I'd quite like a designated contract negotiator to do the hard stuff for me in my job while I get all the credit. Any offers?

How often do pitchers throw the ball at the batter on purpose? Is that when they get in big fights (where no-one actually hits each other, they all basically frot as far as I can tell)?

It's not all frottage, sometimes blows are landed.

How often? Depends on who you ask.

Is that when they get in big fights (where no-one actually hits each other, they all basically frot as far as I can tell)

messers ryan and ventura beg to differ.

http://blogs.chron.com/sportsupdate/archives/ryan_ventura.jpg

Depends on who you ask

Ask Tony LaRussa.

Or his sponsor.

http://a7.vox.com/6a00cdf3a098c8cb8f00cd9707cacf4cd5-500pi

reverse angle!
http://assets.espn.go.com/i/page2/photos/040727arod.jpg

Not to turn this into a brawl picture thread, but Kyle Farnsworth lands punches:

http://www.mlb.com/images/2003/06/19/gTWhWoVI.jpg

some frottage going on here:

http://www.seaternal.com/baseball/Images/baseball%20fight.jpg

one of the few times michael barrett made solid contact that year:

http://blogs.timesunion.com/baseball/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/brawl9.jpg

getting punched is never good but it's not always the worst thing that can happen:
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2008/baseball/mlb/specials/spring_training/2008/03/12/exhibition.roundup.ap/DuncanKickAP2.jpg

stick and move! stick and move!

http://images.townnews.com/nctimes.com/content/articles/2007/06/17/sports/professional/padres/21_11_056_16_07.jpg

ok, i'm done.

No! More!

Hang on, I mean "no, you're not done! Post more fight pics!!"

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/magazine/new/berry_justice.jpg

ok.

fight? orgy? interpretive dance?

http://sawkick.com/wp-content/media/2007/05/baseball-fight.jpg

Wau

action starts around the 50 second mark.

hard to believe grown men in backwards baseball caps and cargo shorts would act like this. also, when the guys in uniforms show up? time to stop.

the youtube thread has some good fights on it.

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Yeah ok talk all that bring that to my city this that. Bring that to MY city L.A and you'd be lucky to make it out alive. 56,000 fans will fucking kill you.

Yeah but Weaver/sweeney classic isn't there anymore. Also no Omar Vizquel/Arthur in the sky with Diamonds fashion brawl.

Xgaygax!p

these guys have been doing this for decades, they know an out when they see one.

unless you're a Pete Rose-caliber dick.

i want to see pedro tossing an old man!

I want a kick-ass Chili Davis recipe!

"What is considered an average to good period/amount of innings for the starter to last?"

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In baseball statistics, a quality start is awarded to a starting pitcher who completes at least six innings and permits no more than three earned runs.

The quality start was developed by sportswriter John Lowe in 1985 while writing for the Philadelphia Inquirer.[1] The statistic is preferred by sabermetricians [this is bullshit --JtM] to that of winning percentage (the number of wins garnered by a pitcher as a fraction of his total decisions) insofar as it acts independently of some factors beyond a pitcher's control such as fielding errors, blown saves, and poor run support. ESPN.com terms a loss suffered by a pitcher in a quality start as a tough loss and a win earned by a pitcher in a non-quality start a cheap win.[2]"

Are all relievers supposed to be closers? Or are some relievers just supposed to go in for a bit?

How rare is it to pitch a complete game? (yay Pelfrey)

Is there a handy guide I should read? I'm looking at the MLB site now.

all relievers wish they were closers.
or failing that a starter.
some are "set-up" guys who pitch the inning before the closer. then you have lefty specialists and usually a guy who can throw maybe 3 or 4 innings if a starter were to leave the game early.

unless your name is Roy Halladay it's getting rarer and rarer.

dunno, sorry

Nb: A starting pitcher can only win a game if he pitches at least five innings, though a reliever can be credited with a victory on one pitch (or no pitches in some cases).

The "bullpen" refers only to the relievers? or to the whole pitching staff?

In some extreme cases, a pitcher who normally starts games -- and who has been scheduled to have a "bullpen session" (basically practice for starters) on that day -- will be called upon in the middle of the game, or more accurately, near the end of an inordinately long extra-innings game wherein the rest of the relievers (or Jose Canseco) have already been exhausted or are otherwise unavailable. Another situation where a starter might enter the middle game is after a prolonged stoppage in play (e.g. a rain delay) -- the manager won't want to tax that game's starter by having him warm up, pitch, then cool down during the delay, and then warm up to pitch again. (Only the MIGHTY TIM LINCECUM has pitched on both sides of a rain delay in recent memory.) As a result, a usually-a-starter will warm up in a bullpen and pitch the bulk of the remaining game.

What is considered an average to good period/amount of innings for the starter to last?

Seven years and $126 million.

xpost Thermo bring on the technical term!!! Id est, the lefty specialist is called the LOOGY (Lefty One Out GuY).

Ha, I never thought about it but I suppose Jimmy's right. Technically, the bullpen is the pen itself and "bullpen" is metonymy for the relief pitchers who sit and warm up in there.

For a handy guide, you could browse Bill James' Historical Baseball Abstract. That's a fun book.

hi i have a question about saves:

say a reliever comes in to start the 9th inning with an 8 to 4 lead. he allows two home runs, a few more baserunners, but eventually gets the last three outs. is he credited with the save even though he put himself in that situation?

did anyone else lol @ VPs "are all relievers closers?" question (not because it was dumb but because its actually a really reasonable for a newbie mets fan to ask)

say a reliever comes in to start the 9th inning with an 8 to 4 lead. he allows two home runs, a few more baserunners, but eventually gets the last three outs. is he credited with the save even though he put himself in that situation?

From THE RULES OF SCORING:

10.19 SAVES FOR RELIEF PITCHERS

A save is a statistic credited to a relief pitcher, as set forth in this Rule 10.19.

The official scorer shall credit a pitcher with a save when such pitcher meets all four of the following conditions:

(a) He is the finishing pitcher in a game won by his team;
(b) He is not the winning pitcher;
(c) He is credited with at least 1/3rd of an inning pitched; and
(d) He satisfies one of the following conditions:

(1) He enters the game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitches for at least one inning;
(2) He enters the game, regardless of the count, with the potential tying run either on base, or at bat or on deck (that is, the potential tying run is either already on base or is one of the first two batters he faces); or
(3) He pitches for at least three innings.

so, no

thanks!

(Only the MIGHTY TIM LINCECUM has pitched on both sides of a rain delay in recent memory.)

there was that kid that girardi murdered in Florida by having him go back out after 3 hours or whatever.

(1) He enters the game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitches for at least one inning;

actually, this is as many as four runs with (a) runner(s) on 2nd and/or 3rd.

hi dere Steve:

(2) He enters the game, regardless of the count, with the potential tying run either on base, or at bat or on deck (that is, the potential tying run is either already on base or is one of the first two batters he faces)

Back to easy questions! How many active players are on a team? Is there a set make-up of number of pitchers versus field players? When you are disabled (I forget the term) that lasts for 15 days? Is there a rule about how often you can be on the disabled list? Teams can call up players from the minors at will?

*25
*no, but the split used to be around 9 pitchers to 14 non- in the '70s, and now can be as nutso as 13 vs 12. (due to pitcher 'specialization')
* there are different disabled lists, 15, 60, and ...?
*not exactly, but it's more that certain players can't be sent down under certain circumstances.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/transanctionsprimer.html

^^^^^ TRANSACTIONS PRIMER

No Dave. I watched Gagne get a save with a four run lead and a man on second. That was not the tying run at the plate by any long shot.

how many batterz did he face?

I'll be back with that answer in a couple hours. Stay tuned!

:\

* there are different disabled lists, 15, 60, and ...?

There's also the bereavement list, but that's getting into the nitty gritty.

Thanks baseball studs! So when Castillo refused to be activated, he was no longer on the disabled list, but simply elected not play? When you are on the disabled list, do you have to serve all 15 days? And what is Day-to-Day, besides what it sounds like? How do you get on that?

So I have learned from the ESPN site that there are 25 active players, but 40 total on the team roster. Only the 60-day disabled don't count on the 40-total team. Can you pull up kids from any minor, or does it have to be the top tier minor?

When you are on the disabled list, do you have to serve all 15 days?

Yes.

And what is Day-to-Day, besides what it sounds like?

Nothing more.

How do you get on that?

Jock itch.

Can you pull up kids from any minor, or does it have to be the top tier minor?

Any level of minor. There are contract purchasing rules and the 40 man max to deal with, but so long as a kid can play at the ML level he can. Who was it who played 0 days of minor league baseball? George Brett?

When you are on the disabled list, do you have to serve all 15 days?

Yes.

Not disagreeing but say a player has been on the bench for 3 days (with a "day to day" injury) with no pinch-hit or pinch-run or defensive substitution appearances, the GM can place that player on the DL retroactive to the last appearance.

I can't find that game. Fuck.

what is the theoretical penalty for a mound conference taking too long? a ball?

probably an ejection, actually

Theoretically, forfeit:

4.15
A game may be forfeited to the opposing team when a team --
(a) Fails to appear upon the field, or being upon the field, refuses to start play within five minutes after the umpire has called “Play” at the appointed hour for beginning the game, unless such delayed appearance is, in the umpire’s judgment, unavoidable;
(b) Employs tactics palpably designed to delay or shorten the game;

mike hargrove to thread

The official scorer can credit a pitcher with a save if circumstances warrant, overriding the rules.

Really? Does that ever happen?

I don't think I've ever seen it happen personally, but it could happen.

There is some leeway for the official scorer in the case of a three-inning save. If the reliever is judged to have pitched ineffectively the scorer can decide not to award the save.

Wes Littleton got a save in a 30-3 game:
http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/2007/B08221BAL2007.htm

Here's an example of getting a save when entering with a 4-run lead:
http://retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1970/B04250SFN1970.htm

Who was it who played 0 days of minor league baseball? George Brett?

here's a list.

Thanks, you dudes are killing it with the research tonight. Minor LOL at X Nady on that list.

pete incavigilia was surprising. maybe he could've used a little seasoning. or maybe he never would have made the majors.

lol Jim Abbott...

actually, that list is "players who went directly to the major leagues", nady made his pro debut in the majors then subsequently spent extensive time in the minors.

abbot wasn't bad! he could outpitch most with one hand tied behi- oh wait.

Yeah, still just kind of funny that X was a hot enough commodity to sign to a major league contract once upon a time.

Kind of pointless to have all the Japanese players on there....

I saw Abbott pitch the first big-league game I went to -- shutout against the Red Sox at Fenway.

el tiante was on the hill for the bosox in my first mlb game.

not a rules question but can someone find what is the most LOB by one player in a game?

Yesterday the Cubs left 35 runners on base in a twelve inning game. What is the record for most runners left on base in a nine inning game? Also, record for any game?

By pdjurisic Asked Apr 8 2008 8:54AM

First Answer
by Lawman19611 on Apr 26, 2008 at 9:28 pm Permalink

The most in a nine inning game is 20 left on base . It was set by the New York Yankees vs Boston (09-21-1956 ). Hard to believe , but most left on base in a season was set by the 1976 Cincinnati Reds (1,328), who won the World Series that year !

You gotta get 'em on base to leave 'em there?

^ that should be embroidered on the J's jerseys.

I think a player leaving men on base is too stupid a stat to have a very long history.

(by which I mean, it doesn't take into account what bases, how many outs, the score, the circumstances, the strategy, etc. All runners need to be knocked in RIGHT NOW BY YOU, ALEX RODRIGUEZ)

If Alex spent more time in the batting cage, and less time frosting his tips...

or glossing his lips?

he's hitting .238 in August.

Paradoxically, more people will come to A-Rod's defense than they would to any other player who had that horrible game.