cat person

and yeah, it’s bad, but people clue into empathy and become whole humans at different parts in their lives! or they don’t. the pressure to understand others, as a societal good, is perhaps higher now when we roll our eyes at public figures proclaiming they have an understanding of women after having a daughter

Fine but it’s still fucked up behavior, stemming from a place of extraordinary selfishness and suspicion.

like the entire twitter-response male denial of this being an abnormal man, of us needing a story from the male viewpoint, of the ending seeming unrealistic, of the supposed judgmental bits

that all seems more false to me, and this story isn’t an absolute, but I could hear the details of it from a friend and believe it — but the details never come across like that, you end up with more emotional color, especially on the male end

sure treeship, I’d believe that. but how many people, really, have those factors?

the story isn’t an indictment of men, all men, even this fictional man. it’s got some facets to consider and some behaviors we find questionable, some gross, some too optimistic or naive

hm...i just finished reading this. my 2 cents:

robert reminded me of a nerdy (yes, overweight) friend i had when i was a kid. he made the same type of jokes, making these these surreal, imaginary characterizations of people (he did it towards men and women) to cover up for his social awkwardness. i actually always thought of him as a gentle bear and i would say this to him. so here's where i think the story is not believable: so there's this omnipresent narrator thing going on, but then towards the end goes into this post structuralist point of view thing, which is fine, albeit a bit clumsy. but while the narrator is still a separate entity from margot -- in the first half of the story -- the narrator equates robert's seeing more nude women with a fantasy of being with an experienced man, if i'm reading this correctly. i'm going to draw from my own personal experience with the roberts i've met and say no. robert sounds like he totally lacks experience with women. i have met women who have misjudged guys' sexual experience simply because he was way older

so why is robert's lack of sexual experience so important to me. well, as someone who has been around a lot of guys, not having sex can put guys in an existential crisis and it's a crisis that they try to mask (avoid) by getting hobbies like movies and art and whatever other thing they think women would be interested in. but while they're working on these hobbies, they become frustrated because they think they are "doing everything right" but are still not getting what they want. like someone said, as if women were prizes to be won

the guys i've met who think like this were either teenagers or in their twenties but with the mindset of a 15 year old in all aspects of their life. meaning they would not have an apartment or house of their own, because they lack motivation or ambition to do much of anything in their lives. so a robert having a place of his own doesn't ring true to me

anyway. sex with margot was the most important thing in robert's view, imo, which is why everything was reduced to sex when he became so angry at the end. what makes me think this dude is also an amateur is his putting margot on a pedestal by imposing his own conservative beliefs on her and his poor communication skills. and the tongue kissing. he is all the bad things that the author has experienced, which is fair enough, but robert as a single entity is not believable, but it works in getting the message across

also apparently the author based this story off her experience with dating apps. my female friends tell me they get bombarded with messages and have so many men to pick from. why pick a man who you're not attracted to? the story could have been more fleshed out in terms of how women choose who to go out with, because there is a real struggle between finding the right balance between looks and interests and (what you see as) "success." this goes for men and women of course

i felt so bad for margot though and one thing that i did find really interesting is how both failed at communicating. margot because she was confused and didn't want to hurt his feelings and robert because of his what i truly believe is his lack of experience with women and probably bad role models (parents, guardians, friends, etc.)

in general it was an interesting read and it did keep me wanting to know what would happen next

pic.twitter.com/qKkd7fNoAN

— Men React to Cat Person (@MenCatPerson) December 11, 2017

Focusing on the ending feels like missing the point a bit - it's an extreme, but not untrue, depiction of male reaction to rejection ime. The first time I read it, I thought it was pretty hilarious, almost a relief after all the tension that preceded it. (And if you think that kind of thing doesn't happen often or is an outlier, a girlfriend of mine recently told me how a guy she was dating, a mutual friend of ours, said she was being "a jackass" because she told him she wasn't interested in a relationship after three nice-but-not-mindblowing dates. He also said calling her a jackass was supposed to be a compliment? I don't even know... the point is, he was far from an MRA-type, though exhibited some pretty typical Nice Guy behaviour.)

the story was v successful at casting a kind of awful vibe where a perceptive, intelligent woman drifts from one impulse to another without feeling able to stand up for her own shifting feelings, or even declare them

absolutely - this is the bit that resonated most strongly with me and other women I've discussed this with. the oscillation between "I hope he likes me/I hope he doesn't hurt me", handwaving bad behaviour as "maybe he's just having a bad day, maybe I offended him, I need to TRY HARDER". and just *wanting to impress* some guy even when he hasn't done anything to deserve it apart from being kind of cute/well-dressed/good at making jokes is a thing that almost every 20-year-old straight girl, including myself, I know has gone through.

The author has deliberately withheld a lot of information about Robert, but just looking at the overall reactions, it's funny how so many men have a specific idea about who he is - he's an MRA-type, he hasn't had a lot of sexual experience, he's this or he's that. whereas most women see Robert as just pretty much as he's written - a random guy.

i have reservations about how he comes off at the end but ^^^^ he's a random guy

Sorry to state the obvious, but surely the fact that people are debating this is due to the very ambiguity this story was earlier accused of not having - which ambiguity is baked right in, right down to the titular concept of the story? The narrator admits in an aside that she isn't sure whether the dude lied about having cats (which is surely a huge red flag & far from normal male/human behaviour is the kind of psycho stunt that the male lead in a romcom has to admit to in the 3rd act) or whether she just didn't see them. It's clearly designed to be read both ways.

That said, I don't feel that the final texts are that much of an escalation from his earlier extremely douchey behaviour - there's a nasty edge to a lot of it throughout.

It is that he is a random guy, and not some MRA thing (that's a Methodology, right? Nothing felt too calculated)...but it also felt like they were both random people playing at using/being used by one another. The intention at the beginning is to connect, he is a dick but she gives her number too. Everyone is degraded by playing at whatever towards the end.

Like, that's often how life is, but then again I'm he person who watches Salo, goes 'yup, he gets it', then moves on.

Sorry to state the obvious, but surely the fact that people are debating this is due to the very ambiguity this story was earlier accused of not having

that is what people are debating. some say it is ambiguous, others say the ending removes a lot of ambiguity.

moving away from that slightly, i just think this idea of "he's left open, you can interpret him how you wish" is kind of a thing people say that sounds like it's clever on behalf of the writer but isn't necessarily so. also the ending is the bit that, for some at least, seems to stop that being the case. i mean i dunno, ending a story is difficult, i read it again last night and i think the ending was a tempting stick of dynamite that actually is a case of plot riding roughshod over character.

there's a lot of wiggling itt like "if a friend told me this story i'd believe it" - i mean we do have a phrase "truth is stranger than fiction" and obv there are plenty assholes out there, i wouldn't doubt any story of human behaviour not least in this sphere. still dunno if it feels true to this character but he isn't v fleshed out.

as someone who has been around a lot of guys, not having sex can put guys in an existential crisis and it's a crisis that they try to mask (avoid) by getting hobbies like movies and art and whatever other thing they think women would be interested in. but while they're working on these hobbies, they become frustrated because they think they are "doing everything right" but are still not getting what they want. like someone said, as if women were prizes to be won

the guys i've met who think like this were either teenagers or in their twenties but with the mindset of a 15 year old in all aspects of their life. meaning they would not have an apartment or house of their own, because they lack motivation or ambition to do much of anything in their lives. so a robert having a place of his own doesn't ring true to me

some fairly wild stereotypes there imo going in all sorts of directions, maybe if those guys were just boning more they'd have a ferrari.

you, a nerd: have you read about Cat Person?
me, well informed on topical items: uh, he goes by Yusuf Islam now

— Five Bergolden Rings 🎅🎁🎄 (@BergoEsBueno) December 11, 2017

i liked this story a lot. way better than any recent new yorker stories i've read in a long time. really loved how carefully it depicted the weird atmosphere of a date (which, after all, usually happens with somebody you barely know, and often leads to weird situations where you feel kind of trapped, even if they aren't necessarily dangerous situations) and how carefully it depicted the narrator's shifting attitudes toward the guy. the ending was startling (for its abruptness as much as anything else) but after a few seconds it felt like the right way to end the story.

^^ i meant to replace my second use of "how carefully it depicted" w/ a different phrase that meant the same thing, but hey, that's why i'm not in the new yorker

LG and imago coming off like you don't know any women who are dating w/ apps tbh

LL and io OTM itt

i have seen the sort of thing that happens in apps, of course i have. i've heard from friends, read articles about it. i'm under no doubt it's intense and horrible, dick pics etc.

but this story features no apps.

that's an interesting choice tbh - she says it was inspired by a meeting on an app but she chooses to her meet him irl. i have to say, maybe this is sad in a "oh no our phones" way but i haven't heard tell of a friend meeting someone irl like in a shop or whatever, in years, or maybe even ever. meeting irl at a party or through a shared interest, maybe. that does lend a little weight to him as pick-up artist, but i don't really want to open that up again.

chooses to have her*

i liked this story a lot. way better than any recent new yorker stories i've read in a long time

i should add, so did i. said it at the start of thread.

but this story features no apps.

The kind of frustrated text strings that this story ends with are common in general casual / exploratory dating, whether via an app or not. They're just so frequent via apps that you would surely not be surprised by the ending if you talk much to women who are doing a moderate amount of interacting with men in the text-y era.

(talk much about their experiences, I mean; not trying to imply you're an incipient cat person who doesn't interact with women at all!)

gonna stfu though bcz Lechera & Laurel have said everything relevant already, and more usefully

i just don't t think you can accuse people of not knowing about what happens in apps, then when it's pointed out there are no apps in this story, say "well i meant texts, it's all the same". it isn't really the same, when he's basically stalking a person who he met irl and then sending texts to her phone number. there's a hierarchy of communication and how personal it is, just as there's a hierarchy to our relationships with people, those we've never met offline, those we see every day, those we've slept with.

the question of why they meet irl is one i'd love to hear the author answer, just because i think it's an interesting choice in a story which seems to demand they met via tinder. to me that's why you mention apps, cos this story feels of that world even tho there are no apps in it. i think them meeting on tinder or something would have been really interesting and almost an open goal, his photos, their first message etc, so much interesting stuff to explore, but maybe it's zeitgeisty enough already.

How is he stalking her? He did stop texting once she/her friend let him know. Up to the last interaction, which is just nasty, and could be the beginning of something like stalking.

Apps are the ice-breaker so you can begin texting, and this r/ship is built via texts.

I thought this was good, on the whole, but one major sticking point was that she thought he was mid-twenties but he turns out to be mid-thirties and if someone is kinda heavy set and hairy and schlumpy in the way she describes then those two ages aren't really confusable in that way, or very rarely are. Or if they are it's that the guy you thought was in his thirties is actually ten years younger not that other way round.

but i thought this was pretty fresh, on the whole.

maybe schlumpy is pushing it.

Or if they are it's that the guy you thought was in his thirties is actually ten years younger not that other way round.

maybe she thought he was one of those guys who looks like he's in his mid-thirties but is actually ten years younger, and then it turned out he was just in his his mid-thirties?

something can be true and righteous and thought-provoking without being especially gripping or well-written. no doubt this does reflect the experiences of many, and i'm all for the discussion, if not the text itself, which i felt was too cartoonishly on-the-nose with its awkwardness and horror, and lacking in the oxygen of externality

It is good that a socially relevant, well written piece of popular adult fiction is enabling a discussion about anything in 2017. I am glad it exists!

Overall, though, I find the piece more "interesting" than "good." As an entry point into a discussion about sexual experience I am glad to have read it. As the presentation of a perspective I do *not* understand (college girl dating seedy older guy) it was well worth my time. But as a piece of structured fiction it was ... just okay. (nb: I am approaching this as a writing teacher).

In my work I have heard two distinct conversations happening about Cat People. But they are messy, and commingled. The first conversation is about the ubiquity of creepy dudes objectifying women and about the sociology of dating men; the second conversation is about the technique and story itself. Often, I think critiques of the story/technique/representation are actually proxy conversations in which dudes to push back against the first conversation. But I think both conversations are valuable and need to be had.

It's my guess that the virality of the story is due to the first conversation (i.e. so many men are creepy and not-so-secretly misogynistic). I think that fans of the story are reacting to this, its content, and the way in which it handles/represents the experience of a not-quite-a-relationship with a lot of realism. I like the can of worms it has opened. I've enjoyed reading (upthread and elsewhere) the articulate thoughts and opinions about gender/dating/identity, etc.

But the second conversation, about the story itself – which the author is certainly strong enough to bear – is where I feel comfortable putting an oar in the water. As a piece of fiction it is strange, and kind of unique, and I think it merits and supports a rollicking conversation. To belittle discussion/disagreement/reaction to it is paternalistic and snide (that 'men react to cat people' twitter irritates me), because I am certain the author will not curl up meekly.

my mind, in fact, it stumbles over its own intentions

(ignore the last line – that was a quote from a response I read elsewhere)

^^^great post, ty

It's impossible to entirely separate the two discussions tho - like say imago's complaint that the story is "cartoony" ties directly into whether that character feels real to us as representative of a certain masculinity or not.

the narrator equates robert's seeing more nude women with a fantasy of being with an experienced man, if i'm reading this correctly.

I don't think it's a fantasy? It's more that she assumes he has and is puzzled by his behaviour - which I think is meant to highlight how unexperienced she is and how little she knows about men. It's not a turn on for her or anything.

why pick a man who you're not attracted to?

You get to a certain level of desperation where you just end up thinking "why the hell not, could turn out to be good" (meetcute tropes reinforce this).

Oh, I know the discussions aren’t seperable. But quibbles with the expression... of which there are certainly valid ones ... don’t inherently suggest disageeement with the content (although they often are proxies).

What are the characteristics of agreement/disagreement with the content of a short piece of fiction and what moral conclusions are to be drawn answers to the usual address

Lol "lacking in the oxygen of externality", wtf is this bollocks?

There’s nothing wrong with meet/cute tropes. Xp

The fucking apps have ruined everything. People are out there trying to get laid in a context where 1.) there is no accountability, or incentive to put your best face forward, and 2.) it’s really easy to dehumanize the people you are interacting with this because they are words on a screen. They didn’t invent misogyny or anything but they’ve breathes more life in it during an era when trends should have been leading toward more equality. (Imho). They’ve ruined everything.

I think some of the negative male reactions to this have something to do with the category of 'creepiness', which includes stuff that can be considered moral failings or behavior that should be condemned (e.g abusive texts), but also stuff provokes disgust but it's also not really 'fair' to blame someone for (e.g. being fat, bad at kissing etc), but it's not possible to neatly separate the two, or how one might impact a potential lover's assessment of the other?

I don't think this is a failing of the story, and trying to separate the two would not be true to life (like some ppl were saying the story was 'fatphobic' and Robert should only be presented negatively for the actual morally bad things he does), but the framing via which a lot of ppl are encountering this story on social media is not as a piece of fiction which represents the ambiguities of real life, but as a righteous call-out of bad male behaviour, tweets about how all men should read this and reflect about their transgressions etc, I get why in that context men would get defensive about certain aspects of this and complain that they're being condemned for being a physically unattractive loser or whatever

Treezy what experience had you of dating pre apps for dating and I'm asking in a framing way not a shaming way

What are the characteristics of agreement/disagreement with the content of a short piece of fiction and what moral conclusions are to be drawn answers to the usual address

Sorry, I don’t follow this.

xps by focusing so intensely on the already-solipsistic central pair it failed to offer the relief or the mystery of external circumstances - settings, people, whatever - and perhaps by design, too, in order to induce a sort of psychological claustrophobia. i suppose the author succeeded in making it feel unpleasant

anyway yeah carry on treesh

My experience trying to meet people on apps has been mediocre but not terrible — women aren’t weird or mean on there like men are — but it still seems to bizarre for me. It aldo seems bad/frightening/dystopian to have like hundreds of matches lined up in an inbox.

I mosty think the apps are bad because of what I hear from my friends who are women. I think the technology has given a lot of fucked up guys the perfect opportunity to embrace their inner stalker, and maybe prevented them from learning real social skills or empathy.

Maybe my analysis is off the mark but I do think a piece of this conversation that is missing is how technology has affected the way people live. I’m probably unduly reactionary about various forms of social media, but still, I’d welcome more analysis from cooler heads.

fwiw online dating has been a boon to myself (when I was still in the game) and tons of friends of both genders: having a profile where you could advance a few starting points before you get too deep into the conversation was a lot less humiliating, and had less potential for disaster, than trying to pull in a bar. Never gave Tinder much of a go though, these picture + one line of text apps do feel a lot more transactional.

There’s nothing wrong with meet/cute tropes.

Whether there's something wrong with the trope-as-trope is irrelevant to the point I was making: there's tons wrong with using fiction tropes as a guide to how romance works in real life, and yet mostly we all still do it.

the framing via which a lot of ppl are encountering this story on social media is not as a piece of fiction which represents the ambiguities of real life, but as a righteous call-out of bad male behaviour, tweets about how all men should read this and reflect about their transgressions etc, I get why in that context men would get defensive about certain aspects of this and complain that they're being condemned for being a physically unattractive loser or whatever

This is totally correct but tbf at this point I feel like social media corrupts everything it touches.

Even in this story, this guy probably wouldn’t have dared to sejd that message as a letter or phone call. Maybe he would have, but probably not. People aren’t as careless with older media.

Self xp

Phone call probably not, letter probably yes (cf Julian Barne's <i>The Sense Of An Ending</i>, not that I enjoyed it much); the distinction isn't old media/new media, it's between facing a real human being and writing to one imo.

putting out the fire with gassy memes

Hey soda, great post. Interested to know (as a writing teacher) what about it you thought was "just okay" and "interesting" rather than "good"

But the second conversation, about the story itself – which the author is certainly strong enough to bear – is where I feel comfortable putting an oar in the water. As a piece of fiction it is strange, and kind of unique, and I think it merits and supports a rollicking conversation. To belittle discussion/disagreement/reaction to it is paternalistic and snide (that 'men react to cat people' twitter irritates me), because I am certain the author will not curl up meekly.

good post imo. i do think there is v little discussion of the story itself and the technicality of it, which i suppose is to be expected, most people don't care about that.

i also find that it's p common for people to focus on the political necessity of stories rather than the stories themselves. tbh sometimes this isn't that useful to the writer. last week somebody in my masters class wrote a story about a muslim teenager revealing to a friend that she's a lesbian. the discussion became so politically charged, both in favour of and against the story and the language used, that it made it almost impossible for anyone to give her any useful feedback or comment about the technical elements of it as a story.

i personally felt that that ends up as a form of prejudice in itself - she said to me in the pub after that "you can't even say 'islam' without a huge uncontrollable discussion happening".

i guess now the cat person author is in the ny'er feedback is not so important, but it's still interesting how something becomes a political football. l

(In my mind the story's small remit and use of archetypes works to the story's benefit - if you find it claustrophobic and bothersome, that's a sign of the story working. But without seeing more work by the writer, it's hard to say whether those limitations are specific choices for the story or a sign of the writer's own limits.)

i realise it's a major white male privilege to sit here and say "i just want to talk the technicalities of the story" but i also think the literary world is quite patronising towards less privileged groups, even (especially?) when it is praising or lionising them.

xpost