cat person

Oops I mean cat PERSON obv I got confused with all the lewton talk

The two or three things I felt when I re-read this piece today:

- The focus on the minute details (of their texting conversations, of Robert's body) gave this story a kind of confessional quality that made it feel more autobiographical than fictional, so I get why people called it a "piece" or "article" instead of a "short story".

- The crux of the situation that I feel a lot of people are missing is that Margot was 20 (and thus underage in the USA) and the fact that a 34-year old was drinking with her, and subsequently having sex with her, makes this situation at the very least, on paper, predatory. A further detail to support this idea is that toward the end of the story, it's revealed that Margot had told many people about what had happened (she was traumatized), and her friends are protecting her like Secret Service agents (she was traumatized).

- The focus of the 34-year old being a badkisser and a badfucker is important insofar as it suggests that Robert was unable to hold down a relationship with somebody his own age. His focus on Margot's perceived lack-of-experience (and then accusing her of sleeping with Albert at the end) made me think that he had, at least, subconsciously felt the real effects of his badkissing and badfucking and sought (again, subconsciously) to have a relationship with somebody who's lack of sexual/romantic experience would give them less of a basis of comparison to judge his sloppy lovemaking.

I was surprised to see the reaction to it. It was well written and precise (although I didn't particularly like it) but people have always loved overidentifying with fiction tbf.

I didn't find the ending a surprise/shock/etc at all? There are so many indications that this isn't a guy who'll take rejection well. The various little warning signs - cats/not cats, the little comments digging at her because she mocked the film suggestion, her sense that she should be self-deprecating/apologetic - reminded me of people I've known where they're not quite believable and you can never feel easy around them. It was probably the thing I liked most in the story, that feeling of unease where you're unsure but trying to convince yourself otherwise. 100% agree with what in orbit said upthread that Margot's instincts were on the money.

Have to say that my personal favourite in recent years from the NYer was this Lesley Nneka Arimah piece.

apparently the author has an active account over on metafilter and admitted as such via a sock account she made to respond to the post about the story

https://www.metafilter.com/171090/Margot-met-Robert-on-a-Wednesday-night#7258782

I'm not especially active on that site these days, but I know a few people around here are

imo its ok for a story to just be relatable and is an accomplishment in its own right, its not personally what im into as far as fiction but its fine and good i think

― lag∞n, Tuesday, December 12, 2017 4:03 PM (fifty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this kind of makes me wonder what reactions would be like if this had been presented as a "young adult short story" rather than a "new yorker short story"

I judge this short story to be beyond criticism (sees how everyone is impressed, goes one stage further). In fact, I judge ALL short stories to be beyond criticism, and we should never stop praising them.

Fwiw the industry self-definition of YA is for ages 11-17 so even Margot overshoots by at least several years if not a decade.

I love that Arimah story, it's my favorite out of her collection.

xp

My Short Story About Cat Person

I read Cat Person and didn't really like it. xyzzzz__ is a silly boy. The End

the funny thing is the new yorkers short stories are often bad, much worse than cat person, often bad fake deep stories abt young ppl sex with a literate gloss on top and everyone just ignores them

ALL short stories are perfect, including ones by Jean Rhys.

Maybe instead of an ILX poetry competition we should have a short story competition. All entries sent to a pollrunner and posted anonymously kinda thing

uhh that sounds p fun

the funny thing is the new yorkers short stories are often bad, much worse than cat person, often bad fake deep stories abt young ppl sex with a literate gloss on top and everyone just ignores them

i was gonna say this earlier, god some of them are fucking shit. just terrible whimsical post-modern rubbish with a few refs to phones and instagram hammered in now and again.

when i listen to the fiction podcast it kinda boggles the mind some of the absolutely barnstorming incredible stories they've published and how weak and ephemeral some of what they publish now feels in comparison. i like naturalism so i liked this story more than most of the usual stuff but still was only really okay for me.

I really liked Cat Person btw, I had just read an Ottessa Moshfegh NYer story (on an ILB recommendation), and this was more engaging and focused despite being much longer.

something slightly depresso about the typical lifespan of a phone-based relationship pretty exactly matching the scale and scope demanded by the short story format

love too enjoy the discourse
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/item/d0ef8a0d-82c6-4df7-acb4-8688b514cd32

^a BBC response to cat person from robert's perspective

the mind boggles. what were the BBC thinking publishing that? a horrible piece of writing, in all senses

oh those sweet, sweet clicks. as sweet as orgasm chemicals

i would place money on that article being down by this time tomorrow

ha thats one of those pieces that from the first sentence provokes a wtf is this responce

jesus christ almighty

no doubt, so here's a pastebin
https://pastebin.com/SC8x1yJg

someone should have to put their name at the bottom of that crime

Epic trolling

what of the dog person

ha thats one of those pieces that from the first sentence provokes a wtf is this responce

― lag∞n, Tuesday, December 12, 2017 6:16 PM (thirty-eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ive thought abt it and come to the conclusion its fanfic

“Cat Person” shook me. It made me uncomfortable. It angered me and it made me sad. I saw Robert as a pathetic oaf from the get-go. Why was he by himself at the movies in the first place? He reeked of self-loathing and insecurity. I’ve been told, though I don’t agree, that there always seems to be someone with the “power” in any relationship. I think society has made me believe that the younger, more beautiful counterpart, who can easily go and find someone else, would be the individual with the power, and therefore, the control in a relationship. Especially when the counterpart is so clearly insecure and jealous. “Cat Person” made me realize this is not the case. That there is another power dynamic that exists, which is much less tangible, but drastically more powerful. There was this moment of absolute sickness when I felt how Margot had essentially withdrawn her consent to move forward in her mind, but went ahead anyways, because of this pressure she felt from Robert and the concern for what he would think if she stopped short. It was illuminating and absolutely sickening to me. I hate Robert and deeply hope that I’m not him, but I think we — men — all are. — Zachary, 30, product manager

https://www.thecut.com/2017/12/8-men-on-seeing-themselves-in-cat-person.html

people attending a movie at an art house theater alone? so weird

That BBC thing is spectacularly bad

Put on the spot with a queue of pick ’n’ mix-crazed kids behind him,

i feel like i daren't look at the thing now

i mean, the bbc version; i feel embarrassed by it. i still haven't read the original, though i will say the most unrealistic thing about the final line is that he puts a full stop at the end

that post by "product manager" is a bit strange. indeed it is hardly weird to go to a movie alone. people should be fine with being alone and others being alone. now and again the reactions to this story towards the male character occasionally throw up attitudes which seem part of the problem. like calling someone "a pathetic oaf". or upthread we had the whole "sex = power and success" motif.

similarly upthread we also had "him arriving at her workplace to ask her out would only be creepy if she said no" - so the end justifies the means? and it's only wrong to ask her out at her workplace if she says no, therefore the act of doing so has no inherent right or wrongness to it and it's entirely right/wrong based on the reaction of the person asked? that seems a strange form of morality to me. "you asked her out at her workplace?", "it's fine, she said yes".

seems to me it's either bad in all circumstances to go to someone's workplace and ask them out, which i'd lean towards, not heinous, but it's a location where they have to be for a set period of time, where you are a customer and they may not be able to tell you to fuck off, where they can't simply leave and may have maintain some veneer of politeness or professionalism.

when you poke around at it, it doesn't seem like even well-meaning men have a fucking clue about how to behave, towards each other or towards women, and i'm willing to include myself in that.

tho the story has enough elements everyone can unite behind - i'm not sure i've read any deeper analysis, particularly from men, that's actually had anything like the ring of truth or thought to it.

Do you include yourself in that?

perhaps justify your own comments before posting a childish one-liner.

Maybe you should try and see that other ppl have a different moral compass than you first.

Fwiw though it felt like a back and forth which was could be judged as half-shitty, it had bits of wit to it, there was a rapport..

People want to connect, they'll do all sorts of things and they aren't checking and questioning themselves all the time. There are basic standards but enough grey areas so -- as to how this works in the story -- I would say my answer was perfect and good and I will not log off online.

LG - the power i was referring to upthread was not "sex = power and success" -- not like "first you get the money, then you get the women, then you get the power" tony montana style etc. it was about the inevitable power struggle at the beginning of a romantic relationship between people who don't know anything else about each other aside from a mutual attraction (of varying degrees). the balance tips back and forth, over and over. example: one person holding out longer to respond to a text and the other trying not to show that they were anxious about it. robert had adulthood and mystery on his side. margot had youth/beauty and the power to say Y/N to sex. she abdicated that power when she had sex with him even though she wasn't into it, which is sad to watch. robert got pissy and had an immature shit fit when his power was revoked.

i agree that people are very confused about how to interact with one another -- and i am not about to try to solve that problem. in a literary sense, i liked how everyone at the end of the story had lost something. no one escapes without bruises. not even the reader!

There was this moment of absolute sickness when I felt how Margot had essentially withdrawn her consent to move forward in her mind, but went ahead anyways, because of this pressure she felt from Robert and the concern for what he would think if she stopped short. It was illuminating and absolutely sickening to me. I hate Robert and deeply hope that I’m not him, but I think we — men — all are. — Zachary, 30, product manager

I think this section is a simple, reasonable, not too convoluted response to reading the story--a little ott maybe but a good sign for this person if this is what he really felt. It would be hugely beneficial for lots of reasons if more people, esp men who are normally cast as trying to wrest sex from women to varying degrees, understood that consent is always in flux and can be withdrawn. The idea of obliviously going forward after consent is withdrawn should be sickening! Zachary has time to figure out a more complex take on masculinity etc, at least this is a start.

My wife mentioned she'd read this story and I asked her opinion, was this man a predator and an atypical creep, or was he a normal regular guy. She said, "Definitely a regular guy."

agree, otm

It would be hugely beneficial for lots of reasons if more people, esp men who are normally cast as trying to wrest sex from women to varying degrees, understood that consent is always in flux and can be withdrawn.
understatement of the year
it would be nice if more people believed that

if Robert had understood/believed this - would it have made any difference to how things panned out?

i would imagine so? he might have waited until they weren't intoxicated to initiate their first sexual encounter.

To understand/believe that would make him act differently in a lot of situations besides the actual sex I think, it'd be a completley different story imo.

not related to uncool conservative opinions but wrt to paypal I just saw someone who tweeted a short 6-post thread on why the nyer "cat person" is a short story work of fiction and not a "piece" or an "article" after it got a little traction she said "if you are using this thread in your creative writing seminar here is my paypal link"

― marcos, Monday, 11 December 2017 14:09 (six days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

from the reveal your secret conservatism thread -- im actually more aghast at the idea of people somewhere who don't understand the idea of a work of fiction -- is this actually a thing?

She got hired and wrote it up - https://www.villagevoice.com/2017/12/15/our-reaction-to-cat-person-shows-that-we-are-failing-as-readers/

idk, assumed most people saying that don't normally read any fiction in the first place.

Also took it as a sign of how little the fiction published in The New Yorker matters to anyone.

finally got around to reading this, thought it was great, ll and io otm itt