cat person

are red vines a regional thing? i've only ever lived in the northeast & mid-atlantic and all we have are twizzlers

lol holy shit marcos i didn't see your post

yeah, i feel like plenty is revealed

― horseshoe, Thursday, December 21, 2017 1:53 PM (nine minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

otm! there was a good post earlier itt (difficult listening hour i think?) about why we don't need to hear this story from robert's perspective because we already know it

lol xp

here is the post i was talking about, otm imo

imo the male perspective is p much already there. for instance by the end you are as aware of the emotion induced in him by her laugh as you are of the emotion in her that caused it. so is she. having read this version of the story i felt pretty clear on what had happened to both the characters. the reverse however would not be true: he does not know even at the end what she is feeling and a story from his pov would not incorporate hers. huh.

― difficult listening hour, Monday, December 11, 2017 3:03 PM (one week ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

maybe they really are regional. i can't recall if red vines are sold in IL or NY, but they're everywhere in California. they are a Cali company.

i'd heard of them before and tbh thought they were one of tarantino's fake brand names i.e. candy apple cigarettes

you kidding, we smoked Candy Apples all the time back in the day

ohh nvm i'm thinking of Red Apple Cigarettes

You know was an asshole? That roommate who obnoxiously sent the fuckoff text.

to soref, she does muse on how his weight is cute or something early on. I don’t think she’s repulsed by him at the beginning. Perhaps not v deeply interested in him either, except as a prop to her self-image, but that is how dating can be when you don’t know someone yet.

the idea that her first time would be with this loser in this awkward/tawdry situation is ridiculous to her -

not how I read this. I read her laughter as more at his (telling) image of her as virginal and “pure,” whereas she’s sexually experienced. I don’t think she thinks of him in such clearly derisive terms as “loser” though I agree she enjoys feeling the “power” of being perhaps cooler and possibly more sexually experienced than he is. (I think by this point she’s been kissed, poorly, by him.)

Yes, a very nasty moment - I really liked it. xp to quincie

I mean Robert may have handled the rejection better were it not done in such a dick move.

I think dudes getting aggravated that a woman might consider a guy fat, or base her attraction on something tenuous like her perception of his interest, is telling. Navigating whether you’re attracted to someone, and why, is something you have to take on when you’re dating, and figuring out the other person’s motivations can flip your own feelings on the matter. Once it became clear in this story that the man’s reasons for finding her attractive weren’t intellectual and he stopped showing interest in her interests, and even started tearing down what he perceived were her interests, she started seeing him more in the same terms he was using

otm

I mean Robert may have handled the rejection better were it not done in such a dick move.

laughing was a dick move? idk. wasn't an inappropriate or gross question to ask if she was a virgin but if your ego is so fragile that you take nervous laughter as rejection i have no sympathy, like mh said navigating this stuff thru rocky terrain assures that your ego will take some hits, comes with the territory, get over yourself etc.

i think quincie meant the abrupt breakup text the roommate sent Robert. but I still think he would have had his vituperative episode either way.

Ohh right on, and yeah i agree

i read the r u a virgin q as the narrator suggesting how completely inexperienced and unaware this guy is

i also think this dude is a massive loser btw

I think he’s completely average, he just missed the point where his peers coupled up and had kids so he seems more dire as a mid-30s man acting in this way

his peer group is definitely the “I didn’t really respect women until I had a wife/daughter” type

she started seeing him more in the same terms he was using
there's a point at the end of each of my erased explanations of this whole thing where it always turns into "and he became a cat person"

the story is called cat person
i think the way he evolves in her eyes is a big part of the story's purpose/point/main idea/short answer question

I feel like calling the character a loser kind of reinscribes his worldview? the truth is men who view themselves as vulnerable on the dating market are totes capable of winding up with a woman they might view as prettier or better than them in whatever way they categorize these things. the question of whether they’re going to actually respond to that woman as a person is a separate one.

the very idea that he would ask someone he had just gotten drunk and taken home RIGHT BEFORE they do it whether or not she is a virgin is one of the more disgusting things he does

he is so gross
mh otm about his friends

horseshoe - where was that article about men being bad at losing?

in nplusone. Hang on; I’ll find it.

https://nplusonemag.com/issue-30/the-intellectual-situation/in-the-maze/

ohh wait i forgot that they went to the bar before they had sex, i should read it again.

i like the discussion itt, haven't talked about it with anyone else yet, again it's amazing and cool that a short story went viral and spread so quickly, and is still generating so much talk 10 days after it was published

omg also this is so otm
the question of whether they’re going to actually respond to that woman as a person is a separate one.

his peer group might strike me also as the types of social scenes i am least comfortable with, where men kind of segregate themselves into a men's group or men's corner or whatever, to talk their dude talk. i don't necessarily mean a few male friends going out together, but the types of men who are not friends with women.

i have a friend who refuses to be friends with women, because he feels as though it's impossible, that there's some kind of sexual tension he can't handle. i talk about my female friends and he acts like i'm being unfaithful to my wife (p.s. this man seeks out escorts, i've recently discovered through another friend.)

the truth is men who view themselves as vulnerable on the dating market are totes capable of winding up with a woman they might view as prettier or better than them in whatever way they categorize these things.

not all of them surely? some men are genuinely irremediable

talking about this story is reminding me of a moment a male acquaintance was complaining that a girl he’d been seeing told him they needed to work on making out better. He was all spluttery, “ I mean, I’ve never gotten any complaints before!” I remember trying to tell him no one’s good at these things in some abstract sense; you’re good with another person; this person likes you and wants to make out with you a whole lot more; enjoy it! he did not see things that way iirc.

/the truth is men who view themselves as vulnerable on the dating market are totes capable of winding up with a woman they might view as prettier or better than them in whatever way they categorize these things./

not all of them surely? some men are genuinely irremediable

also, selfishly, I feel like I have to get by in a world where a lot of men feel this type of insecurity, and I wish they didn’t because they’d be nicer to me and other women in their lives.

she has sold her debut collection for major moolah

his peer group might strike me also as the types of social scenes i am least comfortable with, where men kind of segregate themselves into a men's group or men's corner or whatever, to talk their dude talk. i don't necessarily mean a few male friends going out together, but the types of men who are not friends with women.

i have a friend who refuses to be friends with women, because he feels as though it's impossible, that there's some kind of sexual tension he can't handle. i talk about my female friends and he acts like i'm being unfaithful to my wife (p.s. this man seeks out escorts, i've recently discovered through another friend.)

― omar little, Thursday, December 21, 2017 2:40 PM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah i've had the same experiences, some of my friends and former friends were very much "hanging with the boys" types- i.e. daydrinking and playing xbox and fucking off like children. there was a separation there, as if female friendship was impossible. it was very strange to me. i didn't hear that "i can't be friends with women" sentiment expressed outright but def felt it

i have a friend who refuses to be friends with women, because he feels as though it's impossible, that there's some kind of sexual tension he can't handle. i talk about my female friends and he acts like i'm being unfaithful to my wife (p.s. this man seeks out escorts, i've recently discovered through another friend.)

― omar little, Thursday, December 21, 2017 2:40 PM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

By no means do I mean to judge, but how can a person like this be your friend still? How is that not entirely twisted?!

The Cat Person story and subsequent discussion - mostly here - has been very interesting. I've mostly listened and read. It also has me thinking that I prob come from a place of huge privilege, call it a bubble, but men acting like complete pigs are barely present in my personal life? By which I don't mean it's not happening (it is, way more than I realized, and I can't imagine how completely awful dating must be for women in 2017. I wouldn't wish a man on any woman tbh), but rather how could you stay friends with someone Omar mentioned? How do you not turn your back on those people? You do. You can't validate that behaviour by sticking by someone because you like the same sports team or went to high school together. This aspect baffles me.

You, as a male, have a male friend. He is a pig and/or asshole. How is that not the end of the friendship?

(again Omar, and also Flappy, not meant as a dig on you or your friends, but I don't get how you can (still) be around guys like that. Is it the hope you can change this guy around?)

Because people aren't just pigs and assholes, and if you are kind and say things like "that's not my experience" or "I don't think I'd say that, why do you?" not everyone will respond rudely or argue with you. Change is gradual, and sometimes these attitudes aren't something people are consciously pushing, they're just things that they haven't put any thought into. But yeah, being around people who voice some really backward ideas on occasion can be wearying and you want to take a break or kind of taper off contact for a while.

I think the idea that someone voicing misogynist ideas or mistreating others is something that has to come from men's rights or pick-up artist types is ahistorical. The truth is that a lot of the men writing those articles and selling their idiotic books are in their 30s - 40s and their main complaint is that when they were in their early 20s, fifteen or twenty years ago, they could act like dicks and get dates and now assume that society is wrong, that they don't need to change.

The truth is that most people that were their peers back then did change, or at least changed enough to have families and friends now, and they're not dating -- many of them are married! This particular story, if I were to read some context in, is about a guy who never changed, and probably isn't even self-aware enough to realize it. You don't need someone telling you to act like a dick, you just need to lack the awareness of what you're doing.

It's also part of a reason why a man that age would think going on some dates with a 20 year old would be a good idea -- generally people gain experience as they age and the dating pool of women interested in a man belittling them and showing the wrong kind of interest is much smaller the older you get.

tbf i haven't really seen this fella in a very long time. the "i can't be friends with women" stuff felt like weirdly misguided puritanism, inna pre-Mike Pence stylee. he cast himself as a very moral dude! i mean the reason i haven't seen him for awhile was partially i think because he went through a public and kind of embarrassing divorce and went underground for a bit, then re-emerged acting a bit stranger. i think since last Dec I've seen him once.

and it was subsequent to my last seeing him that i heard about the escort stuff and it completely weirded me out. so when i say "friend" it feels very past tense. i never like to say "ex-friend" at least when there's been no single incident where there was an official break.

sounds like he can't manage his boner

sorry to be crass

that's probably the most accurate explanation tbh

he has these unabashed dirtbag pals and i think he's extremely impressionable. but that doesn't give enough credit to his own ability to perhaps not be a dirtbag himself. cocaine and Backpage are really easy to avoid if you want.

xp maybe!

a lot of men don't have a good framework for how to socially relate to women outside of a relationship. like marriage or a long-term partner gives you the ability to see other women as triangulated in some "not my wife" space and it removes the anxiety, and outside of that framework it's all wonky

I have a friend who has always been kind of off in this way, and his parents definitely gave him a weirdly skewed outlook on the world, but he's changed over time. But he still doesn't have a good understanding of how to define boundaries well -- any woman who's single, even friends, alway live in some "should I be pursuing her" space

regarding this:

It also has me thinking that I prob come from a place of huge privilege, call it a bubble, but men acting like complete pigs are barely present in my personal life?

yeah i don't doubt that your friends are decent but obv lots of men indulge in their worst instincts with some people and front like Mike Pence with others. i know that when I would hang out with him, he never seemed to be anything but a gentleman to the point that my wife considered him like the little brother she never had. she started to get odd vibes around the time i did, i guess.

Late to it, but he struck me as something of a truth claim for a new kind of detached, affectless bloke - wrecked by isolation and the internet, unable to approach relationships at any kind of real level. I was convinced, when he went to his laptop, that he was going to hook up some tasteful porn. I'm wary of using it as a metaphor, but there was an implication of something like an autistic inability to recognise the existence of another mind: she was a body with an unfortunate attached sentience.

xp maybe!

a lot of men don't have a good framework for how to socially relate to women outside of a relationship. like marriage or a long-term partner gives you the ability to see other women as triangulated in some "not my wife" space and it removes the anxiety, and outside of that framework it's all wonky

I have a friend who has always been kind of off in this way, and his parents definitely gave him a weirdly skewed outlook on the world, but he's changed over time. But he still doesn't have a good understanding of how to define boundaries well -- any woman who's single, even friends, alway live in some "should I be pursuing her" space

not sure what you mean by this, if the advance is $1m, she'll probably get $400k now, $300k when she turns in the manuscript, $300k on publication, the money is hers whether she sells a single copy or not, so long as she actually turns in a book

this is correct btw. the only time the advance doesn't get paid in full is if something goes wrong during that three-part process. if the books sees publication she's good for seven figures minus her agent's fee & taxes.

I think a lot of it has to do with the ways you assign value and trust to others, and yourself. Definitely dehumanizing.

This story has stuck with me. As said a millions times, felt unusually real and familiar.

Maybe some significant projection here, but enough elements of Robert are relatable to me, though at a younger age. Mid 20’s, post college, depressed, drinking too much, out of shape, basically given up on finding someone, spent my free time shut up in my house with booze and ~films~. Know the feeling of having someone unexpectedly show interest in you and, almost begrudgingly (because you’re stuck in this fatalistic mentality), deciding to see where it goes. Things progress, you drop your guard (for the first time in years), you start to really like and get excited about this person. Intimacy occurs, both physically and emotionally, you’re OPEN finally. And then... you’re promptly, coldly rejected.

Obv. talking about one specific instance in my life, and it seems so small condensed like that, but it was absolutely devastating and just reaffirmed all of my neurotic self doubts. I didn’t lash out in anger, but if I had gotten a kinda shitty text (sent by the friend in the story) I probably would’ve.

That one little couple-of-weeks relationship was emotionally traumatic enough that it made me re-evaluate my entire lifestyle and way of thinking. I got my shit together, worked on becoming more socialized and self-aware, finally started having normal romantic relationships. Managed to shed that paralyzing fear of rejection. Grew confidence at some point along the way. Came with experience.

Anyway I don’t know where I’m going with this other than to say I have severe embarrassment (and maybe?) empathy for Robert. I don’t excuse all of his behavior, but I know that guy and I don’t see him as a total piece-of-shit sleaze. I see more of a sad, fragile, inexperienced, uhhh... well, loser. I’m about Robert’s age now and I just thank God I had my moment of clarity earlier on.

good post

yea!