Thread of Wonder, the next 5000 posts: science fiction, fantasy, speculative fiction 2021 and beyond

Uh, aesthetically? The scouring of the shire is a highlight!

I'm more bothered by the lack of a comma in 5,000 than I am abt sci-fi tbh

Commas are only for numbers of five figures and up as far as I'm concerned

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbNlMtqrYS0
x10

Almost posted that embed 10x ina old-school JW Noizeborad style.

I'm sure I talked about some of this in the previous thread about hanging out with horror people mostly then SFF people and then when you go back to horrorland, most people in SFF land start seeming really uptight and conversations have so many restricted areas and I have to respect what people aren't willing to discuss but I find it occasionally frustrating. And then there's this area of horror which is like the children of Dennis Cooper and it's lovely how relaxed they are and talking about what drugs they're taking all the time.

https://amphetaminesulphate.bigcartel.com/
https://www.clashbooks.com/
https://expatpress.com/shop/
https://www.apocalypse-party.com/books.html
https://www.infinitylandpress.com/books

I generally like SFF fans but I do feel like a lot of them (even a lot of the progressive ones) still want stories that are easy to swallow and are probably afraid to look at their dog's anus.

Only thing is, the blurbs for some of these authors can be completely ridiculous and leave you hanging, not knowing what it's like or about. "Britney Spears singing love songs to you while Baudelaire gives you an enema" or some nonsense like that.

Ha, exactly.

Think I started a thread about that once.

When Author X was Compared to Author Y by Author Z

nothing more riveting than people talking about their drug regimens, very transgressive

I'm a complete teetolaler and I'm not even into drug talk but my point is it's nice to hear writers talking in a more carefree way. It's probably significant that the horror genre largely escaped the culture war and there's less people out to get each other.

Like this crap is still going on in SFF land
https://dorisvsutherland.com/2021/04/06/baens-bar-the-utterly-incompetent-case-for-the-defence/

i haven't the patience to delve into what you consider 'culture war' 'crap' that's 'easy to swallow'

tbh i've seen way too much of my cat's anus, but nor have i considered cramming something up there and calling it art

honestly you are fucking creepy as hell; maybe you should stick to to 'open-minded' horror boards where you can discuss what you want to do to your waifus with no judgment

but nor have i considered cramming something up there and calling it art

Does anyone do this?

Old Lunch was asking maybe two years ago about problems with reactionary horror people but as far as the fiction/poetry side goes it's really minimal compared to SFF, it's been said they're more easy going and get on better together.
The drawback is maybe the low brow attitude, too much easy amusement with juxtaposing high and low culture and the shit eating grins (see lots of horror author photos) and it does annoy me when people feel they have to present dark or gross subject matter in a jokey way, I'm regularly guilty of it too and it's often my first instinct to joke about some of these things. I think people do this because if they keep a straight face about it, they're worried people will think they're crazy.
But I think sometimes humor and punky attitude doesn't let people process things as well, I'd rather the subject matters weren't considered so transgressive or frightening, it makes peoples lives more difficult. So it's nice when people are just more at ease with it all, but the transgression is undeniably part of the appeal of some of these writers.

There's been a lot of good buzz about this one
https://www.apocalypse-party.com/negativespace.html

Going to be weird hearing “George R.R. Martin Can Fuck Off Into the Sun, Or: The 2020 Hugo Awards Ceremony (Rageblog Edition)” read out at a ceremony.
https://www.tor.com/2021/04/13/announcing-the-2021-hugo-award-finalists/

https://www.tor.com/2021/04/13/a-brief-guide-to-the-extraordinary-fiction-of-vonda-n-mcintyre/

http://file770.com/discon-iii-declines-to-comment-on-code-of-conduct-issue-about-hugo-finalist/

A little bit heartbreaking how many SFF authors despise each other and the awards nominations intensifying it all.

How many people nominated for a Hugo alongside Isabel Fall this year celebrated the removal of her story or contributed to the harassment campaign against her?

I think I count 3 so far. I really hope she wins.

— Experiencing A Significant Poggers Shortfall (@mechanicalkurt) April 13, 2021

The entire SF/F community came out and said "if you don't write about being trans in the way we think you should, we will attempt to harm you."

This is especially angering because it was an open secret that literally all of Chuck Wendig's writer friends were sex pests.

— Qualia Redux (@QualiaRedux) April 15, 2021

and some nice animals. What's weirder than the giant bunny in the first picture, is the way that guy is holding the pilot's head

One great sub-genre of retro sci-fi art: Confusingly Placed Animals pic.twitter.com/P0rmh9WG7I

— 70s Sci-Fi Art (@70sscifi) April 15, 2021

Jess Nevins - Horror Needs No Passport

This starts with Nevins explaining his frustration that there has been very little survey or study of international horror fiction and that he did this book because nobody else had. It sticks to the 20th century (with occasional background and influential writers from further back), skips USA, UK and a few other english speaking countries but there is still a bunch of english fiction included from other countries. Nevins doesn't say which writers he has actually read himself, he quotes other scholars evaluations quite a lot but I did get the impression he was voicing his own opinions about most of the japanese writers (who are surprisingly well represented in english translation) and these were some of the most enjoyable parts.

It might have been inevitable that many of the writers end up sounding very similar and my eyes often glazed over the descriptions of their approaches (what subgenres, where the horror effects are coming from). But every once in a while there's really tantalizing or unusual sounding stories about Africa, Indonesian martial arts horror, a story about a shepherd, Tarzan starring in Israeli horror adventures, italian extreme horror and amazing sounding gothics from all around the world.

It notes a handful of comic artists, Suehiro Maruo is oddly absent but I was pleased to discover Daijiro Morohoshi who I might have seen a little of but most of what I found on search was new to me.

The political/cultural background for every country is detailed, if horror was frowned upon or even outlawed (often in soviet countries, Germany and Japan censored under post-war occupation, some people writing horror only in exile), whether what each writer was doing was considered high art or trash from the gutter. It seemed like quite a lot of the South American writers were politicians.
A few times Nevins writes about authors not pursuing just "mere fear" and it seemed as if it was his own opinion (?), I don't understand why someone so devoted to horror would feel that being scary for it's own sake wasn't enough, given how that approach can be as intense and memorable as anything else when it's done well.

It is mentioned that Ewers was a Nazi but not Strobl, somehow.

No cover credit for Utagawa Kuniyoshi.

I do wish there was some sort of guide about the availability in english of these books. Perhaps Nevins was concerned it would date the book too much and that people might not bother searching for newer books if they weren't already in an english list? I spent a while checking isfdb and amazon for many of the writers but I didn't have the patience to research every writer that sounded promising. A few were indeed published after this book.
Sad that I probably won't hear about most of these authors again. If a particular writer has sufficiently high status, there's a good chance Penguin or some other classics publisher has them in english, a good deal of this stuff goes unnoticed by most horror fans and I can't blame them too much for not catching them all.

This could and should be an important building block for the future of horror. It's pretty great and I bought Nevins' Horror Fiction In The 20th Century, which can be considered a companion to this.

I can't remember who the writer was but one of the unique ideas I came across in the above book was from a writer in exile from a dictatorship who wrote a novel in which even gods are powerless against the goverment, which just seems like a horribly depressing idea. Quite a few south american stories were mentioned in which all the characters are completely fucked and have nothing but terrifyingly bad choices available.

I didn't know that books aimed at railway travelers was such a big thing in India. Which makes me wonder about "airport novels", do publishers and even writers really spend a lot of time thinking about what people want to read at an airport?

https://locusmag.com/2021/02/paul-di-filippo-reviews-the-society-of-time-by-john-brunner/

I like the idea of Brunner but haven’t really been able to read.

Brunner’s supporting cast, including the Jesuit time-travel expert, Father Ramon

Another one for my 'Catholics in spaaaaaace!' list.

Never read any Brunner meself, sounds intriguing but this (re: Stand on Zanzibar) puts me off: Some examples of slang include "codder" (man), "shiggy" (woman), "whereinole" (where in hell?), "prowlie" (an armoured police car), "offyourass" (possessing an attitude), "bivving" (bisexuality, from "ambivalent") and "mucker" (a person running amok).

Elizabeth Moon's Remnant population: emo sf in the Le Guin mould. Good aliens and bad humans, though the humans aren't all that bad, and the dice are stacked rather heavily in favour of the aliens - not that Le Guin didn't indulge in a bit of dice stacking herself. Enjoyable but somewhat cosy and convenient.

Also for fans of (at least) 5000 posts, this Rollin Speculative looks like the first, b. 2011, and is where I came in: (hey thomp, get back here):
rolling fantasy, science fiction, speculative fiction &c. thread

Didn't mean to drop the g, sorry.

Or jump the gun on :

will jump gun for dinosaur

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fb8IN53dfBQ

Good Ray Bradbury rundown and intro to new exhibit at Chicago's American Writer's Museum.

There's a free talk by his autobiographer tonight:
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/sam-weller-telling-bradburys-story-tickets-149947169019?aff=CCSamWellerProgram

re: the recent KSR opening scene

The risk of a heat wave and blackout striking a major U.S. city simultaneously is growing -- and it "may be the deadliest climate-related event we can imagine."https://t.co/Iw5COIAizQ

— Christopher Flavelle (@cflav) May 3, 2021

To say something slightly more substantial about many SFF readers wanting simplistic and easy to swallow stories, see some of the commentary on hopepunk. Noblebright (another dumb genre name) is the conservative version but I don't know if there is any actual writers who call themselves that. But many people have found hopepunk stories to be deeply conservative. Katherine Addison's Goblin Emperor in particular.
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/1268544277

Some people accused Becky Chambers of racial stereotyping in her hopepunk space operas.

Peter Watts has been very supportive of Kelly Robson but he still ridiculed the hopepunk genre because he found the idea of hope being subversive to be laughable. Hope is the default he says.

As much as I enjoy this kind of mockery, I do actually want to enjoy Goblin Emperor and Chambers if and when I read them because a lot of people genuinely loved them, so I'm kind of hyped.

Don't know about racial stereotyping but the one becky chambers thing I tried to read was so pollyanna-ish I couldn't finish it.

Peppy protagonist: hey evil space pirates, don't rape and murder us and steal all our supplies, it makes more sense for you to just take what you need and leave us in peace!
Evil space pirates: Ok sure!

I hate hate hate the -punk construction, yes even cyberpunk and steampunk. Basically if you haven't been in the pit at Agnostic Front or, er, The Exploited don't call yourself punk, whippersnappers. Hopepunk is the worst yet, although noblepunk would beat it if anyone had been mad enough to moniker the 'genre' thus.

Yes Hopepunk is particularly gross.

If you want racial stereotyping I can(not) recommend Hellspark by Janet Kagan. Not that she stereotypes any existing races or cultures, but in her humanoid diaspora every planet confirms to extremely rigid and laboured stereotypes (one lot carry knives which they obsessively polish while thinking; one lot shake bangles to make a point; one lot approach from the right to appear submissive, obviously another lot approach from the right to appear dominant!) and it's only one interplanetary traveller who helps them see that hey man underneath we're all the same!

I'll accept cyberpunk and splatterpunk but I feel that if there is no punk aesthetic at all, then I'd rather call it something else. So steampunk is steamtech to me. Dieselpunk is dieseltech, solarpunk is solar SF, mannerpunk is fantasy-of-manners, hopepunk is uuuhhhh, I dunno.

Somebody mocking it called it Copepunk.

Adding punk to everything makes the genre naming so boring too. I also find it dumb in music when someone highly individual and/or untutored like Captain Beefheart gets called punk, I don't think it makes a lot of sense.

Jess Nevins - Horror Fiction In The 20th Century

This book is a huge undertaking and it was impossible this was going to please everyone. It covers more areas of horror fiction than most surveys care to or even would consider looking at, but it's under 300 pages and Nevins is just here by himself. In addition to the expected anglosphere writers and the parts cut and paste from Horror Needs No Passport (I did wonder if there were some new entries in these parts, because there were profiles I didn't remember), there's sections on horror for children and young adults, horror written by (and largely for?) African Americans, Latinx, Native Americans, Australian Aboriginals, Gays and Lesbians that mostly never had much of an audience outside their own communities.

I had some of the same problems with this as I did with Horror Needs No Passport (profiles on writers often blur together through similarities, authors who write primarily to scare seem to be considered less worthy) but this is often a more fun read.
The parts I enjoyed the most are when Nevins makes arguments and gets opinionated. I have never heard so much about the various trends going on in the ghost story and pulp eras and the claim that women ghost story authors made advancements that unfortunately weren't built on for a long time. There's some authors profiled who seem to have been a big deal in their time who I don't recall hearing about (Harriet Prescott Spofford and John Burke). I hadn't ever heard that James Herbert, Bentley Little and Benchley's Jaws novel all had a leftist outlook. Very few authors get a bad review but I was pleased the entries on Tanith Lee and SP Somtow were so positive; oddly the opinion in Horror Needs No Passport that Koji Suzuki is a bad writer saved by great ideas is not included here. Was Rosemary Timperley really more popular than Daphne Du Maurier? Timperley is fairly obscure these days and much of her short stories are impossible to find, even hard enough to find her novels.

I wish Nevins had made it clearer which authors he had himself read extensively and which he was going more on other scholars' research. We are often told a writer uses certain subjects and approaches "to terrify the reader" and I'm generally guessing this is more the intent of the authors rather than the actual effect on most of its readers? But it's not clear. How often is anything expected to terrify an experienced horror reader?

At the end he lists a lot of authors he would like to have covered but didn't have the time to. Some were big enough to surprise me (Graham Masterton). I'm surprised he didn't mention Jessica Amanda Salmonson here because he admires her as a scholar and cites her often. Nevins given Fantastic Victoriana an enormous update so maybe this will receive some expansion years down the line too?

This book could have used another proofreading, the typos are generally minor but there's a few bigger mistakes like Julian Gracq being called "Jean Gracq", Basil Copper is called "Basil Cooper" a few times.

Some further complaints and more minor quibbles.
- Brian Eno is wrongly listed as the producer of Velvet Underground's debut album (a comparison is made about the relatively low sales of Weird Tales despite its enormous influence to what Eno said about Velvet Undergound's debut).
- Hugh B Cave's comeback is not mentioned, only his pulp era.
- Marion Zimmer Bradley is mentioned in the context of 40s ghost stories. Bradley did start publishing in the late 40s but I doubt this is who Nevins meant.
- Datlow's part of Year's Best Fantasy & Horror is mentioned but I thought it was worth mentioning how many editors came before in this type of anthology.
- I was pleased to see the section on 60s/70s paperback era gothic romances but it seems to only scratch the surface, given the enormous number of book covers I've seen from this particular era.
- The RPG section doesn't mention Worlds Of Darkness.
- Some novels are included for sheer misery and I kept expecting to see Samuel Delany's Hogg but it wasn't there.
- I wanted some elaboration on why the 80s were a golden age and why the 90s were a slump. Is this purely about sales? Nevins says (noting a rare agreement with Joshi) that the slump allowed more artistic writers to cater to a more sophisticated readership. But couldn't this still have happened within the genre if sales had been better?
- I would have liked much more opinions rather than the encyclopedia approach it takes most of the time.

Despite all this, it's a very good book, not as vital as Horror Needs No Passport but still an achievement.

3/4 of the way through a book that was recommended by both James Morrison and ledge and it is not disappointing. Can’t wait to see what will happen after the dust storm ends.

― We Jam von Economo (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 23 January 2020 01:17 (one year ago) link

So far seems to be shaping up to be an instant ILB sf classic, a worthy successor to Inverted World.

― We Jam von Economo (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 23 January 2020 01:23 (one year ago) link

Which?

― change display name (Jordan), Thursday, 23 January 2020 01:24 (one year ago) link

Theory of Bastards, by Audrey Schulman.

― We Jam von Economo (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 23 January 2020 01:29 (one year ago) link

So, this was one of the last books I bought in-person pre-pandemic, and I've just now gotten around to reading it. I'm halfway through, and I'm loving it so far!

(Also in a truly bizarre coincidence, I started reading it the day after my mom called to tell me about a Genius-grant-recipient former colleague and friend of hers, whom I met once many years ago, being written up in the New York Times for her work on endometriosis!)

> a worthy successor to Inverted World.

IW is currently 99p on kindle in the uk

Cool. Maybe the handful of stragglers here who haven’t read it can catch up. Or maybe it has already been relegated to Olde ILX/Olde SF Thread and has fallen out of favor.

> the handful of stragglers here who haven’t read it

*SOBS*

i miss shakey big-upping silverbob

Totally

Jeff VanderMeer - Hummingbird Salamander

I had only read his Area X books before. Does he write all of his books like this? It spends page after page saying how significant the hummingbird and the salamander are, but it takes ages to explain why. (Supposedly because of events in the narrator's life, but this turns out to be untrue, despite her supposedly writing the book down after she has learned that it's untrue.) Most of the novel has the form of a Dan Brown quest but the clues are obviously nonsense, and lead to another clue anyway, despite it all ending up to be irrelevant in the final pages. My least favorite piece of fiction that I've read in quite a while.

frederik pohl - 'the world at the end of time'

conventional human ark-ship colonization story + 'tau zero'-ish time dilation interspersed with the ramblings of a plasma-based superbeing roughly as old as the universe.

unfortunately the main human character is an annoying prick, and it's unclear why anyone else cares about him. at one point he's reunited with someone he thought long dead, which should have been monumental but is passed over quickly because him having truly missed them isn't believable and the returning character has no depth whatsoever.

there's some awkward sex stuff, although tbf it's not as bad as that of most of his old-school sci-fi colleagues. the superbeing, despite having every other chapter devoted to it, has no role to play other than inadvertently causing the time dilation. not only does it not actually encounter our humans, it only becomes dimly aware of them in the final pages.

not v. good. only other thing i've read by him is the first heechee book; iirc that was better

Wolfbane is a ride for sure, he was at his best in collaboration with CM Kornbluth imo

I know this is very much scraping the bottom of the barrel, but: I have a lot of affection for the Warhammer and (to a lesser degree) Warhammer 40k universes. Anyone know of any novelizations or audio dramas set in those worlds that are good?

much as I love the culture, in my memory this and against a dark background are the most intriguing and worthy of a re-read.

yeh need to revisit Endjinn, I remember it being good but hard work. Excession is my fav tho.

> 1nce, for instance was rendered as lnce and Ince in places

ha, that's small-L-nce and big-i-nce rather than digit-1-nce. depending on the font it's indistinguishable, BUT my original hardback uses a serif font so this shouldn't happen.

Lord Dunsany - Time And The Gods (omnibus)

I think Gollancz screwed up with this book title, it has the exact same name as the first book in this omnibus and I'm sure that has caused trouble with book orders. Time And The Gods And Other Collections or Six Early Collections would have been more fitting. It contains six collections and I'd argue two of them (Time And The Gods and Gods Of Pegana) could be seen as mosaic novels.

This is an extremely mixed bag, I seem to be cursed in that many of my favorite books are far more difficult than they needed to be yet rewarding enough that I have to persevere. I had my doubts about finishing this one because it was deadly dull much of the way but it surprised me often enough and it has that misty mountain mythopoeticism that I love. Sometimes the prose is indigestible and in ridiculously long paragraphs that would challenge any attention span (good thing most of the stories are very short) and then sometimes he writes beautifully flowing prose that makes me wonder why he didn't write like that more often.

In these early collections Dunsany usually defaults to a stately ceremonial mode with lots of repeated phrases and it can become wearying and grating. But every once in a while he does something completely different that has no resemblance to any other story in the omnibus. This made it easier to keep reading and curious about how far he stretched this in further books.

Dunsany is often called a foundational fantasy writer who helped normalize invented settings but reading Lovecraft and Clark Ashton Smith didn't prepare me for how different Dunsany is. The stories are almost always told from a great distance, they're often like landscape paintings and that's part of what I like about them, but when it gets to the characters they tend to be left extremely vague and ambiguous, leaving me to wonder if some of the gods have human form or not, or if they are shapeshifters. Time is described as a man with a sword who can do battle with humans by aging them. The first collection has gods leaping across the planet in an instant. One god is suggested to be like a cat and I didn't know how literally to take that. And we get sentient forces of nature, water, hills, mountains; one story has a stream and a road talking to each other. In one landscape description a goddess called Romance is briefly mentioned to be walking around the fields and never mentioned again, I liked the effect.
A lot of this felt quite fresh to me, there are a bunch of writers who have written pastiche of this stuff but I never felt like most of the approaches of these Dunsany stories have become widespread and certainly not done to death. Despite the tired mannerisms.

I wouldn't recommend this whole omnibus as an entry point but I feel that using excerpts from Time And The Gods and Gods Of Pegana in the Penguin Classics collection (In The Land Of Time And Other Fantasy Tales) probably wouldn't work well. The stories have a cumulative effect and I think Time And The Gods is by far the best book in the omnibus, it builds itself up and travels around the world, the descriptions of the forces of nature traveling in the later chapters is really beautiful and "The South Wind" is a nice little sad story.
At a page flipping glance, Gods Of Pegana looks like it will be a much easier read because the stories are shorter than ever and it has lots of short paragraphs but it was actually the most difficult to read and I guess that's why it was kept to the end (despite it being published first).

Other highlights:
- "The Doom Of La Traviata" is incredibly short but made quite a strong impression. It's about the christian god sending a sex worker to hell but the angels can't bear to punish her like that so they leave her outside the gates of hell and she becomes a beautiful flower that watches people going to hell but listens to and feels the breezes of heaven.
- "Thirteen At Table" with the fox hunter who stumbles on the man with ghosts for dinner guests.
- The dog at the start of Time And The Gods that stares people to death (even through shut eyelids).
- I can't remember which story or which collection it was but I loved the part with the god who sends some sort of movement through the mountains as if he's playing them like pipe organs, it was an amazing image, I should have written it down.
- The dreamy image of an old lady singing in her garden.

An extremely mixed bag, generally really dull and occasionally amazing and very fresh. Approach with caution. You're probably better starting with the Penguin collection or King Of Elflands Daughter. I've heard his plays are very good.

finished The Left Hand Of Darkness and it was ok but again plagued by ocr errors - literally every time he mentioned why he went by Genry rather than Genly the 'l' was rendered incorrectly, as an I or a 1. otherwise ok, but only ok.

before that The Diamond Age which felt like an excuse to write fairy tales (although the same thing can be said of a lot of sf)

and now The Factory which says it's sf but I'm 60% in and there's no real sign of it yet.

Great post RAG.

this month's Kindle deals are kind of ridiculous - 3 things from my wishlist and a couple of others

iain m banks - state of the art and hydrogen sonata (and the algebraist which i already have) all at 2.99

New Reynolds third Prefect novel 99p

neuromancer 99p

bone clocks (not sure of genre here tbh) 99p

(and a couple of other things that are definitely off topic)

Great post RAG

Second part of this PAN Review review is about more Dunsany:

..The man himself has now reappeared in rare form - in both meanings of the term - in a hand-stitched, mauve-covered, limited edition chapbook of Lost Tales, in what Michael Swanwick describes as being sourced "from microfiche copies of the magazines they were published in for the first and only time." In this case, between May 1909 and March 1915.

In the past I've made it clear that, in the field of fantasy, Dunsany's surface exotica has left me cold.His apparent influence, that spawned the sword 'n' sorcery epics of Le Guin, Tanith Lee, Tolkien, Moorcock, etc., ensured I'd be giving this particular sub-genre a wide berth. His non-SNS work (such as The Blessing of Pan and The Charwoman's Shadow) being more welcome but all too rare.
Lost Tales, however, is a revelation in the former field. Its beauty - swiftly apparent - is the distilled essence of what made his longer, more elaborate work charm so many for so long. Shorn of the interminable asides, musings and epic descriptions of sand-blown travel across vast oasis, what remains here is the poetry, wry wit and child-like wonder at their source.

Those Pegana Press editions are levels beyond what I'm willing to spend but I think Ghost In The Corner from Hippocampus might have some of that stuff.

https://bsky.app/profile/feastlastharlequin.bsky.social/post/3kujj2uam672l

don't really understand this situation but sounds interesting

David Pringle - The Ultimate Guide To Science Fiction (Second Edition)

Note: the first edition is from 1990 and the second from 1995, there was a third edition planned but it never happened. Pringle written several guides and encyclopedias so make sure you get the titles and editions right.

I really admired Pringle's books in the 100 Best Books series, and this is surprisingly fun for a book arranged like an encyclopedia. Pringle made it an A-Z by book titles because he thought (or maybe he knows?) that people are more likely to recall a book title than an author's name (the authors are indexed at the back). I wish he hadn't done this because a large chunk of the book is entries (for alternate titles, sequels and supposedly minor books) referring you to other entries with a proper overview. I wish he trusted readers to use an index for book titles and arranged the main text by author name, it would have been so much more streamlined. But still, it's surprisingly fun, though I might not recommend it to someone who doesn't know at least a quarter of the authors in the book.

The ratings go from no stars to four stars, if my memory serves me right, it seems like there was less than 40 books to get 4 stars. Pringle quotes other critics extensively, I tend not to like mocking reviews but David Langford, Christopher Priest and some others had a real talent for putdowns, I'm kind of amazed that back when the genre was smaller and everyone knew everyone it didn't stop them from writing these insults. I get the impression gore was a turnoff for Pringle.

Some minor disappointments: Jo Clayton is nowhere to be seen. No Dave Duncan (not to be confused with the earlier David Duncan who is in here), admittedly he written more fantasy at this time. Sharon Webb and Sharon Baker didn't have a huge following but I wish they had been in here too. I don't know why he gave Edgar Allan Poe's science fiction collection full marks, I consider a lot of that his worst work. David Drake gets rated lower than I expected. One of the major additions of the second edition is film/tv novelizations, the overwhelming majority seem to be the dull hackwork you would expect so I don't think this was a great use of space, I wish he had just featured the exceptional ones. I'm amazed by how many film adaptations I've never heard of.

I'm really dismayed by the frequent difference in contents between USA and UK short story collections, this is a collecting nightmare. Ian Watson's body of work sounds more fascinating than ever. George Alec Effinger comes off looking really well too. Larry Niven seems to be a much better short story writer than a novelist? Leo Szilard wrote science fiction! It's speculated that Stuart Gordon changed his name from Richard because he didn't want to be confused with another writer, but now he's overshadowed by a film director of the same name. Greg Bear's Queen Of Angels gets a rave review that suggests it's one of his best works (never heard of it before). Uncensored Man by Arthur Sellings and Web Of Angels by John M. Ford also sound great. I'm on the lookout for James Kahn too.

James Grazier's Runts Of 61 Cygni C is called "Hilariously bad, one of the prime contenders for the title of Worst SF Novel Ever Published". It seems to be about a garden of cyclops people having "endless games of sex" as the cover boasts. Hope I can find this one. Thankyou again to David Pringle.

And thank you for that informative review---one of the resluts of Googling Mr. Grazier's work: https://schlock-value.com/2017/10/08/runts-of-61-cygni-c/

cover https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/918VNeQ7hlL._SL1500_.jpg

Don't think I've read any Jo Clayton, is this review of diadem from the stars accurate?

The story is about a superhuman Mary Sue that travels around and everyone she meets wants to kill her or rape her, but she's got superpowers, so that she can pull off a deus ex machina each and every time and move on to the next encounter. Ah, and she also likes to bathe, and for whatever reason the author decided we needed to know every time that she was going to have a bath (but don't hope in any kind of titillatory material), even though it is of no consequence to the plot and adds no depth to the character. Luckily we don't get to know every time she pees.

I haven't got far enough in Diadem, I started reading it months ago and had to put it aside until I finished other things. I was enjoying it so far. There's some ebooks but it's a shame that none of her stuff was ever reprinted, she had a decent sized audience I think.

I can't recall the author or title but there was a 70s novel about britain being ruled by soccer hooligans, I'd probably never read it but just the idea is funny.

https://file770.com/last-dangerous-visions-table-of-contents/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Dangerous_Visions

This is such a huge disappointment. I'll likely get the book and I don't envy the task JMS had in seeing this through but a mere 13 of the original stories are in this new anthology and that still leaves about half of the stories in limbo, including around six writers who seem to have nothing published (admittedly these were probably the hardest writers to track down, maybe he tried) but he said he rejected some stories for being dated, which is just a terrible reason. Biggest surprise is the Bester story still absent. I would have liked to seen the Piserchia story (and everything else really).

About time I read the first two dangerous visions I guess.

Sheckley? And Cory Doctorow? Hmm

he said he rejected some stories for being dated, which is just a terrible reason.

the christoper priest piece on LAST is great.

The Book on the Edge of Forever?

Where did you read it?

https://web.archive.org/web/20000902203835/http://sf.www.lysator.liu.se/sf_archive/sf-texts/Ansible/Last_Deadloss_Visions,Chris_Priest

Called THE LAST DEADLOSS VISIONS there but (c) 1994 and the wikipedia page for tldv implies it's the same as The Book on the Edge of Forever.

I think the second version was expanded.

I wouldn't expect all these stories from the 70s to be masterpieces and so what if they're dated? If you're putting out something like this it feels like missing the appeal of why people want to read it.

I’ve never been able to get through P J Farmer’s Joyce pastiche in DV, or Richard Lupoff’s similar in ADV. OTOH, the Delany in the first collection and the Russ in the second are top five SF short stories for me - and there many others nearly as good. Whatever his failings as an editor and human being, you do get the sense that Ellison could inspire people to do their best work for him, and that compared to many other SF outlets, his was a more diverse and encouraging sale.

I haven't read these since, well not quite since they came out, but the late seventies, I think.

But a few of them have stayed with me all this time and some I read elsewhere later. Table of contents of the first one still looks really good today. Feel like I forced myself to finish that PJF story, but was a bigger fan of some of his other stuff.

I think of "dated" as being like confined, stamped, done, but agree that *somewhat* dated/pleasantly/pungently musty can have its own antique charm, even allure---like I recently finally read this aaancient pb of Ballard's Chronopolis I've had for maybe 20 years, from a thrift store, and the lesser stories, liberated from cold print, would make awesome basis for 60s-early 70s anthology TV (there are also several classics/killers).

“Dated” SF can often have a hauntological effect, if I may.