Thread of Wonder, the next 5000 posts: science fiction, fantasy, speculative fiction 2021 and beyond

I was in one book club for a long time- we only read one book! - which was a lot of fun since we read it aloud, page by page. We read another book the same way when we finished that one then tried a third and ended it. I joined another, regular book club at some point, but that I didn't like. It seemed like a lot of people didn't show up and them that did hadn't necessarily read the book.

I joined more to make new friends than for the book discussion itself. It's good for that but yeah my already endless reading list getting interrupted by books that some other person thought looked good is a nuisance.

Yeah, no worries. I just touched base with friends from my book group on Wednesday since that was a significant day in the book week we were reading.

Provenance by Ann Leckie. Every time I read recent mainstream SF now I think about caek's post decrying all of it as 'adequate YA fiction'. I like Ann Leckie and her strain of social/political SF, it mostly works, it's not as juvenile as some other things I've read. But it's hard to pin down exactly where it might lie along a line from kids books to serious SF for serious people. It's definitely not up there with Le Guin (whose maturity shines though even in her overtly YA stuff) or Lem or Butler - but is it any worse than Iain M Banks? Or even Clarke or Asimov? I'm not sure there's anything particularly grown-up about Rendezvous with Rama or the Foundation series (I know there's little love lost here for the latter anyway).

No idea if it's "better" than Iain M. Banks but I do think the latter cannot possibly be described as YA, think any young adult would feel overwhelmed and/or bored p soon reading him.

'The latter' Being banks? Asimov? I'm sure plenty of young adults do and have read both of those.

Banks. I dunno man I read Matter and that shit was hella complex.

That's the one that in my memory could most fairly be described as a 'romp'! I daresay that does it a huge disservice and it's as complex as you say, I should - will - reread it. Still I'd hazard that there's plenty for the young 'uns, bless 'em, to appreciate and enjoy.

Where would you say that LOTR fits on the spectrum?

> a 'romp'!

Phlebus is very much an action movie imo (the others are better)

(currently rereading them all at a rate of about 1 a year, will get around to Matter in about 2027)

Matter was a finalist for the 2009 Prometheus Award.

Oh look I just found a list of books to not read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus_Award

Where would you say that LOTR fits on the spectrum?

I think LOTR is complex in way that teen boys specifically are very happy to engage with - long lists and chronologies - while Matter struck me as complex more from a philosophical, political angle (also re sexual politics but ver kids are probably all in for that).

It's a can of worms, not least because Young Adult me was reading all sorts of stuff that's not YA, but I guess I kinda associate the term with a certain simplicity, stronger focus on storytelling, world building as decoration rather than philosophical treatise?

It is a can of worms and one perhaps I'm not qualified to open since I try in general to avoid anything overtly YA, or anything recent anyway.

I can barely read these days so not sure if I should comment, but I am allergic to the kind of generic writing style implied by YA. I mean of course plenty of other genre fiction, including the Greatest Genre of All, Top Shelf Literary Fiction, has this problem but YA is a particular marker.

Would that be definition 1 or 2 here? https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/top-shelf :)

Heh, hadn’t known the second, don’t think.

top shelf is also where the oversized books go in certain shops

I stopped reading and writing fanfic mostly because it's now nothing more than a farm team for the YA industrial complex.

:(

TS: YASF vs. TSLF

Pretty sure that a lot of those Prometheus Award writers are not libertarians. Would be surprised if Older and Stross were libertarian. But honestly it doesn't bother me much, I really want to read Donald Kingsbury and Wil McCarthy someday

Yeah the award is for anything they class as "libertarian science fiction" not the authors themselves.

Libertarian science fiction is a subgenre of science fiction that focuses on the politics and social order implied by right-libertarian philosophies with an emphasis on individualism and private ownership of the means of production—and in some cases, no state whatsoever.

Le Guin is a nominee so I think they are, unsurprisingly, somewhat confused.

Libertarians love to co-opt anarchists.

If you'd enjoy hearing somebody gush about Barbara Hambly for an hour
https://soundcloud.com/user-733327042/dragonsbane

Some intriguing reviews here:

Mills Of Silence by Charles Wilkinson, Egaeus Press / Through A Looking Glass Darkly by Jake Fior, AliceLooking Books http://panreview.blogspot.com/2021/05/mills-of-silence-by-charles-wilkinson.html

The Death Spancel & Others by Katharine Tynan, Swan River Press / Beatific Vermin by D.P. Watt, (Keynote Edition VII) Egaeus Press / Glamour Ghoul – The Passions And Pain Of The Real Vampira, Maila Nurmi, by Sandra Niemi, Feral House http://panreview.blogspot.com/2021/03/the-death-spancel-others-by-katharine.html

Double Heart by Marcel Schwob, translated by Brian Stableford, Snuggly Books / Circles Of Dread by Jean Ray, translated by Scott Nicolay, Wakefield Press http://panreview.blogspot.com/2021/02/double-heart-by-marcel-schwob.html

The Ballet Of Dr. Caligari & Madder Mysteries by Reggie Oliver, Tartarus Press / Six Ghost Stories by Montague Summers (with an Introduction by Daniel Corrick), Snuggly Books
http://panreview.blogspot.com/2019/11/the-ballet-of-dr-caligari-madder.html

Be sure to scroll all the way down to the bottom of each page to get the brief mentions of more books.

Speaking of that "Through The Looking Glass Darkly," recently on Alice In Wonderland:
https://4columns.org/sinker-mark/alice-curiouser-and-curiouser
covers looking glass also (which as a child i preferred, perhaps bcz i am a massive NERD)

― mark s, Thursday, June 17, 2021 9:36 AM

And much discussion ensued, incl. of Alice on TV and film, and a link to another Mark piece on same in Sight And Sound (also pix)

Horace Walpole - The Castle Of Otranto

I had mainly heard this referred to as a dull piece of homework for horror fans, literary historical context. But was really surprised to find it's quite fun, brisk, and the writing is often really beautiful (I seem to be a minority on this one). An audio version with the right actors could be great.

There seems to be a lot of confusion about how to take the drama, is it all really comedy? One of my least favorite aspects was the absurd outpourings about family duties, morals and honor but they're taken to such an extreme that it must be intentionally absurd how forgiving and unquestioningly loyal so many of the characters are to Manfred. And what one of the characters says when they are stabbed to death.

I am a little sad that Walpole is more interested in action than atmosphere and that the imagery of the giant knight wasn't exploited more but there's plenty of other gothic castle books going for atmosphere and Castlevania taken the giant knight.

This really isn't a chore, it has more energy than most horror stories today.

Mills Of Silence by Charles Wilkinson, Egaeus Press

― dow, Sunday, June 27, 2021 10:44 PM

Got that one recently in the mail.

Also got Terry Dowling's 3 volume Complete Rynosseros in the mail today and it looks fantastic.

https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/22543858/isabel-fall-attack-helicopter

I do wish this essay held certain people’s feet to the fire—I feel like some folks have gotten off super-easy re: this nightmare and that frustrates the hell out of me. But I am glad to hear Isabel’s own words.

— Carmen Maria Machado 👻 (@carmenmmachado) June 30, 2021

Meaning Jemisin and Yang and probably others who talk a good deal about bullying and gatekeeping yet act the very same way

That's an upsetting read. Curious about this distinction between paranoid and reparative readings; just from the description in the article they seem to me kind of two sides of the same coin of wanting fiction to be socially empowering on some level, just with a glass half empty/glass half full perspective change?

yeah i did not know about that whole affair and it's damn dispiriting

i changed phones a couple of months ago and still haven't reinstalled twitter on my new one and probably never will tbh

The ludicrous thing about that whole shitshow was that the story was printed in Clarkesworld, which is one of (if not THE) most respected short fiction publishers in the SF world. The idea that Neil Clarke would have been taken in by some bad actor is nonsensical, and anyone who convinced themselves it was the case (and then felt the need to pontificate about it on Twitter) needs to take a long hard look at themselves. Not that I'd actually say this on Twitter itself, as the place is a haven for bullies and careerists and who needs to stick their head above that particular parapet?

The other ludicrous thing about it is the very idea that a transphobic crypto-fascist would choose to express their transphobia through a complex, challenging SF short story. Right-wing memes are one-liners for a reason.

This is all terribly sad to read about. That poor woman.

I think it was "rumoured" to be a Sad/Rabid Puppy type. Then again none of those people can write for toffee, so it was probably one of those rumours that generates itself organically during histrionic tweetstorms.

Some apologies are coming in but so far they've been bad

https://t.co/B4mWRiA74u pic.twitter.com/ljtmO6Il1t

— Tweet Y'Self Fitter (@WokeSexPest) July 1, 2021

But I'm glad more people are taking a stand about this and against the idea that writers are responsible for the worst reactions readers can have.

I think this is possibly of more consequence than any of the puppygate stuff because there's surely going to be a lot more discomfort and writers looking askance at each other at conventions.

The number of people shocked and appalled at what happened to Isabel Fall while implying that they reserve the right to do the same to any author whom they perceive as less vulnerable or marginalized is a sight to behold.

— Nick Disband the Police Mamatas 🤼‍♂️🏴 (@NMamatas) July 2, 2021

https://www.tor.com/2021/06/29/the-history-and-politics-of-wuxia/

Really great article, mostly focuses on a few examples. I wonder if Ng will write her own wuxia.

Fun interview
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Um_2Vf2BAE

Leonora Carrington - The Debutante And Other Stories

Was quite pleased and surprised to find that Carrington, Leonor Fini and Remedios Varo have written as well as painted. I found this okay, the things I liked best were what reminded me of her paintings, unusual looking characters, some images crowded with strange details. The stories are funny sometimes, there's a nice disregard for convention but much of it didn't stick for me or make any lasting impression. I wish they had the thicker atmosphere of her paintings.

I'll read Hearing Trumpet someday and Stone Door if I can find it.

Forgot to mention one of the stories has something just like garmonbozia from Twin Peaks

Fun, this is really stuffed full
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gbr_TstnNeM

Started watching Counterpart, as mentioned on this thread and on I come in peace... three times a night -- FOR ALL MANKIND (Apple TV Plus) by VG and others. Seems to be just what the doctor ordered.

read two of the three 'imperium' books by keith laumer -- alternate history, via the multiverse, from the 60s

they're garbage, but i guess i was briefly in the mood for that

A corollary of Clarke's famous law is that any SF novel featuring sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magical realism. That certainly applies to Hannu Rajaniemi's The Quantum Thief, not that it wasn't enjoyable. If I have any gripes it's that the number of terms and concepts that are introduced but not explained till the third or fourth time they're used, and the structure of parallel narrators with flashback interludes, means that it's only every going to make complete sense, if at all, on a re-read. I'll probably never do that, but I will read the sequels.

giving starfish by peter watts a try. ok so far. any thoughts on his stuff?

i read that hannu rajaniemi series last winter -- about all i can remember is that i liked it but was not convinced that it actually made sense. so, cosign

feel like peter watts has been discussed, perhaps on previous threads? among the hardest of scifis, iirc. i've only read blindsight, which was weird and good but had one kind of outlandish plot point that i don't think was strictly necessary

Yeah, people loved Blindsight, which I never could quite get into.