why isn't there an anthony trollope thread?

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was hoping there would be an old-ilx style 'classic or dud' or 'pick only __' or, best, a 'defend the indefensible'

♛ LIL UNIT ♛ (thomp), Sunday, 20 September 2015 09:47 (nine years ago) link

anyway, i am surprised at how much better 'north america' is than 'american notes for general circulation'

♛ LIL UNIT ♛ (thomp), Sunday, 20 September 2015 09:48 (nine years ago) link

Well you know I used to rave about The Way We Live Now, still love it. Don't buy some recent comparisons of the central baddie to Madoff, though; they both played hard to get at times---can't take just anybody's life savings, of course---but don't think Madoff ever contradicted this with overt social climbing, like AT's Augustus Melmotte, fake name and all. Can practically smell the cologne, and a numeber of characters smell the fraud, but/and want a piece of it before, while or even after he falls---some associates have the lawyers for that last.So despite the book's commercial success, he may not have dissuaded many from getting involved with successors to the real-life Railway King, who burned the author's father-in-law, among who knows how many others.
Good take by the Guardian, which isn't to be taken for granted (did Henry James etc. really look down on him? Did this book change such minds?)
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/feb/17/110-best-novels-way-we-live-now-trollope

dow, Sunday, 20 September 2015 14:07 (nine years ago) link

Said to be considered too dark by some of his long-time fans, esp. re the sometimes violent treatment of wives, daughters, the marriage market etc.

dow, Sunday, 20 September 2015 14:09 (nine years ago) link

trollope's relationship to 'darkness' is kind of weird -- thinking of how the whom-shall-inherit-and-who-shall-they-marry plot of 'dr thorne' is touched off by a chapter of rape and murder following which the narrator is all "and now -- nicer things!"

wossname's long walk over the darkening hills in 'can you forgive her' after her brother breaks her arm, the whole time making excuses for him, thinking forward to days when they'll laugh it off -- such a psychologically weird and acute moment for its time and context

♛ LIL UNIT ♛ (thomp), Sunday, 20 September 2015 23:47 (nine years ago) link

otoh i did just get to the bit in 'american notes' where he defends slavery so maybe he's just a fucking moron after all

♛ LIL UNIT ♛ (thomp), Sunday, 20 September 2015 23:48 (nine years ago) link

haha one really should never allow oneself to skip the note on the text. i thought it was unusually pacy

"For the present edition the original two-volume work has been reduced to one volume of just over a third of the size."

♛ LIL UNIT ♛ (thomp), Monday, 21 September 2015 02:26 (nine years ago) link

reading 'the last chronicle of barset.' definitely enjoying it a lot more than the last couple installments--v enjoyable that the overriding action is, at last, not the marriage plot. various orbits around the family and acquaintances a totally passive central figure who by modern standards we could term 'clinically depressed,' and who is accused of a theft which is trivial by the standards of almost everyone else involved in the book but life-ending to him. all v peculiar and off-kilter.

♛ LIL UNIT ♛ (thomp), Tuesday, 22 September 2015 04:18 (nine years ago) link

"But my sister--"
"As for your sister, don't talk to me about her. I don't care two straws about your sister. You must excuse me, Major Grantly, but Lady Hartletop is really too big for my powers of vision."

♛ LIL UNIT ♛ (thomp), Tuesday, 22 September 2015 06:58 (nine years ago) link

Phineas Redux was my favorite lol college read

my cheeriness amazes me (rip van wanko), Tuesday, 22 September 2015 11:54 (nine years ago) link

Since 2011, I've read a Trollope novel a semester, Phineas Redux and The Small House at Allington most recently. The Way We Live Now I loved most: the best English novel about love and money after Emma.

The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 22 September 2015 12:40 (nine years ago) link

I want to read The Eustace Diamonds, but after finishing Gaskell's Wife and Daughters I need a break from Victoriana.

The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 22 September 2015 12:41 (nine years ago) link

how many gaskells have you read, just out of curiosity

♛ LIL UNIT ♛ (thomp), Tuesday, 22 September 2015 14:48 (nine years ago) link

Wives and Daughters. I want to get to Mary Barton this semester.

The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 22 September 2015 14:49 (nine years ago) link

I like North America a lot, as a travel diary.

half the staying power of Erasure (Eazy), Tuesday, 22 September 2015 18:23 (nine years ago) link

maybe i should abandon my disdain for mrs gaskell, idk

♛ LIL UNIT ♛ (thomp), Wednesday, 23 September 2015 00:43 (nine years ago) link

Gaskell's Cranford is pretty great; was introduced to it by the same professor who told me that he didn't teach Trollope because there wasn't interesting to say about him (?!).

bentelec, Wednesday, 23 September 2015 00:52 (nine years ago) link

a professor who's never dull!

The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 23 September 2015 01:20 (nine years ago) link

I read Barchester Towers in 2005 and really enjoyed it, but when I tried Trollope again last year I really struggled to find...like...anything that seemed like I could in any way relate to it. it was like genuine-article science fiction

tremendous crime wave and killing wave (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Wednesday, 23 September 2015 01:59 (nine years ago) link

yeah i think there's something in trollope that appeals to me as someone who occasionally reads overlong sci fi and fantasy novels -- the way barchester works as authorial subcreation or world-building, its own world at a tangent to the real one

♛ LIL UNIT ♛ (thomp), Wednesday, 23 September 2015 02:19 (nine years ago) link

fox-hunting as quidditch

♛ LIL UNIT ♛ (thomp), Wednesday, 23 September 2015 02:20 (nine years ago) link

I'm not the first reader of Victorian fiction to prefer Trollope to Dickens. There's less interest in creating sympathy, a submission to the exigencies of narrative that keep his love relationships hummin.

The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 23 September 2015 02:22 (nine years ago) link

*humming

The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 23 September 2015 02:22 (nine years ago) link

i liked "hummin'"

♛ LIL UNIT ♛ (thomp), Wednesday, 23 September 2015 02:35 (nine years ago) link

"Well, Mr. Thumble?" said Mrs. Proudie, walking into the study, armed in her full Sunday-evening winter panoply, in which she had just descended from her carriage. The church which Mrs. Proudie attended in the evening was nearly half a mile from the palace, and the coachman and groom never got a holiday on Sunday night. She was gorgeous in a dark brown silk dress of awful stiffness and terrible dimensions; and on her shoulders she wore a short cloak of velvet and fur, very handsome withal, but so swelling in its proportions on all sides as necessarily to create more of dismay than of admiration in the mind of any ordinary man. And her bonnet was a monstrous helmet with the beaver up, displaying the awful face of the warrior, always ready for combat, and careless to guard itself from attack.

♛ LIL UNIT ♛ (thomp), Wednesday, 23 September 2015 15:02 (nine years ago) link

i need more trollope in my life.

scott seward, Wednesday, 23 September 2015 17:24 (nine years ago) link

trying to decide how let down i feel about the way barsetshire ends -- the last one felt a bit like watching someone make a fantastically complicated balloon animal only to drop it just as they were about to put the knot in, with the last 150 pages or so being the thrashings-around of the thing on the floor

♛ LIL UNIT ♛ (thomp), Sunday, 27 September 2015 14:52 (nine years ago) link

Kind of an appealing description, whether he let it drop or not.

dow, Sunday, 27 September 2015 19:10 (nine years ago) link

seven months pass...

Anyone read The Prime Minister? Gonna start it soon.

The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 5 May 2016 18:39 (eight years ago) link

eight years pass...

i've been reading "the warden" -- quite like it.

budo jeru, Tuesday, 15 October 2024 19:33 (two months ago) link

How have I never posted in this thread? Love this guy.

Guayaquil (eephus!), Tuesday, 15 October 2024 19:38 (two months ago) link

about 3/4 of the way through "the warden" it has started to drag. i love the way that trollope constructs the microcosm of barchester and the meticulousness with which he arranges the characters in relation to one another, but it's a bit tiresome when he zooms out and tries to do satire of journalism / polemicists. it's like pages and pages of "oh! but the infallible demigod, who looks down from atop his mountain of typeset at the tiny generals and politicians whose tiniest movements do not escape his just and all-knowing gaze" -- dude, we get it

budo jeru, Thursday, 17 October 2024 15:03 (two months ago) link

> a bit tiresome when he zooms out and tries to do satire of journalism / polemicists

i complained at this, his comical names, in some other thread.

fwiw, The Warden felt a lot like the first third of a story that finished in the second book Barchester Towers. not sure if that'll help.

koogs, Thursday, 17 October 2024 16:00 (two months ago) link

The Warden is one of those books where I only really remember one chapter but I love that one chapter so much that I have warm feelings toward the book as a whole. And that chapter is "A Long Day in London," where the Warden goes to London for a meeting and gets there early and has to just hang out for a few hours, and Trollope takes you through all the mundane, mildly stressful details of having to kill time in an unfamiliar city.

Lily Dale, Friday, 18 October 2024 03:40 (two months ago) link

it is indeed a lovely chapter! i've just finished the book and may have some more thoughts tomorrow

budo jeru, Friday, 18 October 2024 05:17 (two months ago) link

Prev. posted on WAYR Spring 2014, originally published in WSJ--- Mrs. Norton was AT's friend, basis of Lady Carbury:

The Criminal Conversation Of Mrs. Norton
By Diane Atkinson
Chicago Review, 486 pages, $29.95
review By
Alexandra Mullen
Nov. 22, 2013 3:41 p.m. ET
Was there an evil fairy at Caroline Sheridan's christening? Born in 1808 into the theatrical and political family of Richard Brinsley Sheridan, she was graced with beauty, intelligence, wit and industry; her pen poured forth popular songs, poems and novels, which brought her early fame as "the female Byron." Yet all anyone pays attention to is a scandal that happened to her when she was only 27. It left her, as she wryly noted, with a reputation "something between a barn-actress and a Mary Wollstonecraft."
Diane Atkinson begins her biography of Mrs. Norton—as she was known after her marriage to George Norton—with this scandal. In 1836, the Whig prime minister, Lord Melbourne, was sued for £10,000 damages for having "criminal conversation" (adulterous sex) with the wife of an undistinguished barrister from a Tory family. Over the course of the 14-hour trial, the all-male jury and audience enjoyed the sexually suggestive testimony about the high and mighty. Norton's lawyer was disconcerted when their "explosive laughter" greeted his innocently stated fact that Lord Melbourne didn't knock at the front door of the Nortons' house: Instead he "invariably went in . . . by the passage behind."

image: An oil sketch for Daniel Maclise's 1849 mural in the House of Lords. Caroline Norton served as the model for the figure of justice; the painting hangs not far from Westminster Hall, where the trial that made her infamous took place. Mackelvie Trust Collection, Auckland Art Gallery Toi o Tmaki, gift of James Tannock Mackelvie, 1881.
Melbourne's lawyer cannily exploited the jury's worldly attitude to suggest that the case against the prime minister wasn't one of a cuckolded husband seeking justice, but a political enemy seeking to score a blow. In Ms. Atkinson's words, "the Honourable George Norton had been shown to be a man lacking in honour," exploiting his failed marriage for party-political maneuverings. Melbourne got off. The Whigs were thrilled, while the Tories made the best of it. As one grumbled, he "really couldn't see why Lord Melbourne should be so triumphant at the verdict given, as it had been proved that he had had more opportunities than any man ever had before, and had made no use of them."
But despite being officially proved virtuous, which perhaps she was, Mrs. Norton was now notorious. Even many years later, acid tinged her review of a book that brought up the gossip that always swirled around her famous grandfather: "Obscurity is a thicker shield than virtue."
She wrote her friend Mary Shelley after the trial: "[To count] for nothing, in a trial which decided one's fate for life, is hard." She wasn't exaggerating. Legally, as a married woman, she did count for nothing. Under the laws of coverture, a married couple was considered to be one legal person in which the wife was "covered" by the husband: She had no legal right to enter into contracts or own property, including any income she might earn.
Nor did a wife have any right to her own children. During the trial, George had spirited away the couple's three children—sons aged 7, 5 and 18 months—and forbidden Caroline to see them. Distraught and furious, but with no recourse at law, Caroline turned to her family's standby, the pen: "It is not from choice that I left poetry and pleasant themes,—for defence of the better part of life." To get back her sons, she lobbied, wrote and contrived to change the law. The Custody of Infants Act, granting mothers of good character a right to custody of children under 7—only with the Lord Chancellor's approval!—was passed in 1839.
With cruel irony, the law only applied to England and Wales—and George had taken the boys to his brother's estates in Scotland. Mrs. Norton wasn't reunited with her sons until 1842, under bittersweet circumstances. George notified Caroline too late that their youngest son was ill, and by the time she reached him he was dead. Thereafter George allowed Caroline restricted access to the two other boys. She was only freed from George's influence upon his death more than 30 years later, by which time her older, more responsible son had died of tuberculosis, and the middle son had become both financially dependent on his mother and often violent toward her.
The current fashion that "the personal is the political" was not a Victorian vogue. The reformer Harriet Martineau, for instance, sympathized with Mrs. Norton yet disapproved of her efforts because women "must be clearly seen to speak from conviction of the truth, and not from personal unhappiness." Mrs. Norton reflected some of this sentiment herself in 1855, when she wrote a public letter to the queen to support the Matrimonial Causes Act, which among other things eased procedural restrictions on divorce and began to recognize marriage as a mutual contract: "I do not consider this as my cause," she wrote of the bill that finally passed in 1857, "though it is a cause of which . . . I am an illustration. It is the cause of all women."
Some richly colored refractions of Mrs. Norton can be found in literary works lighted by her case and character. Ms. Atkinson mentions the one that appeared a year after the trial, written by a court reporter there. In "The Pickwick Papers," the young Charles Dickens replayed the case mostly for laughs, partly by switching the adultery trial to a breach-of-promise suit. William Makepeace Thackeray also clearly studied the courtroom shenanigans for "The Newcomes" (1855), while 30 years later, after the deaths of the main actors, George Meredith based the heroine of "Diana of the Crossways" on his friend Caroline and followed the background facts of her marriage very closely.
Ms. Atkinson doesn't mention Dickens's more subtly serious view of themes inspired by the Norton case: In "Hard Times" (1854), which appeared as a weekly serial while Parliament debated the first Divorce and Matrimonial Causes Bill, he depicted the unhappy marriages of both Stephen Blackpool and Louisa Gradgrind. Nor does Ms. Atkinson point out the shades of Caroline Norton that appear in novels by Disraeli and Anthony Trollope, and in Tennyson's long poem on women's education. Mrs. Norton even makes an appearance in John Fowles's 1969 novel, "The French Lieutenant's Woman."
To her credit, Ms. Atkinson's selections from Mrs. Norton's letters allow us to see her private side—whimsical, querulous and sometimes even whiny—but this biography represents a lost opportunity. Much of the material I've drawn from for this review comes not from Ms. Atkinson's book but from Randall Craig's excellent "The Narratives of Caroline Norton" (2009)—a book I discovered in Ms. Atkinson's bibliography. Scholarly studies aren't for everyone, but Ms. Atkinson's popular approach doesn't quite satisfy either. Like Alan Chedzoy's "A Scandalous Woman" of 20 years ago, "The Criminal Conversations of Mrs. Norton" lets the shadow of the scandal obscure the woman herself. The author of five novels and 11 books of poetry, Mrs. Norton considered herself a woman of letters; she once wrote a friend, semi-facetiously, that she hoped that "a hundred years hence," after people had read a biography of "that remarkable woman," literary tourists would be drawn to scenes from her novels.
Are her novels any good? I wish I knew. Her evil fairy must be cackling.
—Ms. Mullen writes for the Hudson
Review and Barnes & Noble Review

dow, Sunday, 20 October 2024 17:57 (two months ago) link

one month passes...

started Doctor Thorne and i'm glad it has dropped the religious setting of the first two.

the ocr errors are very distracting though.

koogs, Wednesday, 18 December 2024 14:24 (three weeks ago) link


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