Rubicon - Tom Holland

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How pop. history is this book? I've been watching the re-reruns of HBO's Rome and it has piqued my interest in Augustus, to a lesser extent Caesar, and the political machinations of that period in general. I have only a rudimentary knowledge of what went on some readings of Cicero.

I'm worried that the Rubicon will sacrifice accuracy and over-simplify for the sake of wonderfully dramatic language and pacing. Perhaps you know of better books released by a university press? I do have The Architect of the Roman Empire by T. Rice Holmes on Augustus and a slim volume from the "Teach Yourself History Library" on Julius Caesar, which may well be enough about him for me.

― Arethusa (Arethusa), Thursday, 16 November 2006 18:50 (nineteen years ago)

As it happens I read this last September, prompting this exchange in September's "What are you reading?" thread:

I checked out from the library and have been reading Rubicon by Tom Holland. I am about halfway through and may not finish. It is not exactly inaccurate, but the overly-punchy prose style and the overemphasis on personalities, fashion and style make me think of People magazine. Mr. Holland constantly refers to Pompey's "quiff".
-- Aimless (aimles...) [...]

Aimless, I felt the same way about Rubicon. Far too much narrative, too little history.
-- Ray (raycu...)

― Aimless (Aimless), Thursday, 16 November 2006 19:17 (nineteen years ago)

My forever favorites: I, Claudius and Claudius the God, and the background for both, Graves' translation of Suetonius' Twelve Caesars. Not released by a university press, but credible and excellent reading on the period in question all the same.

― Jaq (Jaq), Thursday, 16 November 2006 21:52 (nineteen years ago)

Aimless thanks for pasting that. The very idea that reading an antiquities book reads like "People" makes me shudder. I'll definitely be skipping it.

Jaq thank you, I hadn't known about those books before. I'm sure my school library will have it. The Twelve Caesars sounds particularly intriguing.

― Arethusa (Arethusa), Friday, 17 November 2006 00:17 (nineteen years ago)

Be sure to get the Graves' translation, which has the naughty bits left in (and in English, not Latin) :)

― Jaq (Jaq), Friday, 17 November 2006 00:50 (nineteen years ago)

It's interesting how people's perspectives can differ. Mister Monkey loved Rubicon, and he is Mister Roman History dude.

― accentmonkey (accentmonkey), Friday, 17 November 2006 07:41 (nineteen years ago)

Yes, the vicar thought it was great too, and he also knows his historical stuff. But I thought Holland was trying too hard to make it accessible, and whenever he got too close to the characters I felt the urge to shout "How the fuck would you know? That was two thousand years ago, and you think you know what he was thinking? Write a novel, or don't!"

― Ray (Ray), Friday, 17 November 2006 08:46 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, 12 Caesars (or at least the first, oh, 9 or 10) is pretty sweet. Although I read it more or less already knowing the history it was talking about, so I'm not sure what reading it "cold" would be like.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Friday, 17 November 2006 22:03 (nineteen years ago)

I had actually had a look at Rubicon myself but could not get past the first page because of the dramatic opening. That was the first warning bell. I'd prefer something that's a little dry but accurate precisely because I don't know my historical stuff.

Casuistry, I'm taking Jaq's advice and getting the Twelve, so I'll let you know how it's like cold. I'm also getting the Cambridge Companing to Roman History so it should help me out.

― Arethusa (Arethusa), Saturday, 18 November 2006 19:50 (nineteen years ago)

whenever he got too close to the characters I felt the urge to shout "How the fuck would you know? That was two thousand years ago, and you think you know what he was thinking? Write a novel, or don't!"

Ah right. I thought it was a novel. Yeah, that would kind of annoy me, I think. But I am still going to read it, because I am too lazy to read proper history books, and I am tired of uppity smackheads like the Vicar and Mister M laughing at me because I don't know who anyone in ancient Rome was.

― accentmonkey (accentmonkey), Saturday, 18 November 2006 20:36 (nineteen years ago)

Did I really write "Companing" instead of "Companion"? I should perform Seppuku.

Don't worry accentmonkey, I won't laugh at you. :p

― Arethusa (Arethusa), Saturday, 18 November 2006 22:57 (nineteen years ago)

Accent, just watch Rome, the HBO series!

― Casuistry (Chris P), Sunday, 19 November 2006 00:56 (nineteen years ago)

Or, try Conn Iggulden. I snarfed through his first Rome book on a 2 hour flight. Lots of banging clanging swordplay and a shocking surprise at the end when a secret identity is revealed!

― Jaq (Jaq), Sunday, 19 November 2006 06:10 (nineteen years ago)

I have watched Rome, Chris. I am very annoying when I watch it though, because I once, ten years ago, got very drunk with Kevin whatshisface and now every time I see him I go "there's my mate Kevin!" Honestly, it's a wonder people still like me.

Jaq, is Conn Iggulden good then? I have seen his books second hand many times, and I must confess to having judged them by their covers.

― accentmonkey (accentmonkey), Sunday, 19 November 2006 22:24 (nineteen years ago)

Which was was Kevin?

― Casuistry (Chris P), Monday, 20 November 2006 00:49 (nineteen years ago)

Jaq, is Conn Iggulden good then?

Hmm. I think, if you are a pre-teen boy you'd say he kicks ass (or the current equivalent). I found it a non-challenging but involving enough page turner, perfect for a flight home. The co-worker (male, 40s) who loaned it to me raved about it. iirc, some of the history was distorted - like the Gladiator movie influence - but most was fairly sound. It was more a Roman Boy's Own Adventure than historical fiction.

― Jaq (Jaq), Monday, 20 November 2006 01:07 (nineteen years ago)

Chris: If only there was some sort of handy online resource for remembering people's names and the things they starred in. Wait, here it is. Kevin McKidd, that's the chap. He is Lucius Vorenus.

Jaq: Got it. Holiday, airport reading. Real reading, no. I have I, Claudius around here somewhere, maybe I could just read that.

― accentmonkey (accentmonkey), Monday, 20 November 2006 08:14 (nineteen years ago)

I, Claudius is good. Claudius the God is also fun - though I think it makes the character-as-fictionalised hard to sustain (if that makes any sense).

― Ray (Ray), Monday, 20 November 2006 08:48 (nineteen years ago)

It's not that I couldn't look it up myself, it's that we were having a conversation. But: Oh ho ho! Happy drinking.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 03:08 (nineteen years ago)

Oh no, I didn't mean that as a rebuke, it's standard conversation round here. Whenever we can't remember someone's name, we always go "hmm, if only there were some enormous repository of names of people who starred in everything ever somewhere around here". If we're really feeling sad, we'll check our pockets too.

― accentmonkey (accentmonkey), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 10:18 (nineteen years ago)

Oh! Oh ho ho!

I feel like saying "Oh ho ho!" a lot.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 17:37 (nineteen years ago)

Please, feel free. Christmas is coming, after all.

― accentmonkey (accentmonkey), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 18:18 (nineteen years ago)

one month passes...

Rubicon is great. It is probably a good first book to read about TEH FALL OF TEH ROMAN REPUBLIC because it is narrative history and all that. Afterwards go and read some dry shite academic tome. Or Plutarch's Lives.

Rubicon is heavily footnoted, so it is good for pointers on ancient world books to read.

― The Real Dirty Vicar (dirtyvicar), Monday, 15 January 2007 16:03 (eighteen years ago)

two months pass...

Accent, just watch Rome, the HBO series!

"Rubicon" starts earlier, so if you read it you will know loads of kewl things not in the TV series. And lots of the best characters are dead by the time the TV series starts - Crassus, Clodius, Clodia, Sulla, etc.

― The Real Dirty Vicar, Monday, 2 April 2007 17:54 (eighteen years ago)

I just got a hold of this and I agree with the naysayers, the style is rather ripe and gamey, but I still may try to plough or skim through.

― James Redd and the Blecchs, Wednesday, 4 April 2007 02:20 (eighteen years ago)

U R ALL GAIUS!

― James Redd and the Blecchs, Saturday, 7 April 2007 22:19 (eighteen years ago)

three weeks pass...

Pompey's quiff finally did me in as well, and I sent this back to whence it came without finishing it.

Today I became aware of [Removed Illegal Link].

― James Redd and the Blecchs, Saturday, 28 April 2007 23:47 (eighteen years ago)

this series of books

here's the link http://italian-mysteries.com/JMR01.html

― James Redd and the Blecchs, Saturday, 28 April 2007 23:47 (eighteen years ago)

Ned said he was going to post to this thread but he hasn't yet, I see.

― Casuistry, Sunday, 29 April 2007 01:13 (eighteen years ago)

Maybe he can explain why every other sentence in this book is this sentence: "It was, somewhat paradoxically, this very noble principle, which was both the woof and weave of Roman citizenship, having been drummed into every Roman from birth since the time of the kings, that when taken to a logical extreme by and combined with the cynical opportunism of [insert name of Roman dictator here], led to the unraveling of the very Republic it had been designed to safeguard."

― James Redd and the Blecchs, Monday, 30 April 2007 00:33 (eighteen years ago)

maybe I meant "warp and woof"

― James Redd and the Blecchs, Monday, 30 April 2007 00:35 (eighteen years ago)

"woven into Pompey's quiff, in the Roman equivalent of Donald Trump's combover"

― James Redd and the Blecchs, Monday, 30 April 2007 01:22 (eighteen years ago)

TS Pompey's quiff vs. Quincy's pomp

― James Redd and the Blecchs, Monday, 30 April 2007 05:57 (eighteen years ago)

Complaints, complaints.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 03:41 (eighteen years ago)

With this brief two-word piece of Ciceronian oratory, Ned has brought the Roman era back to life far more vividly than Tom Holland ever does anywhere in his lengthy tome, at the same time making things relevant to us today by echoing the rhetoric of that modern-day Augustan autocrat, Boss Richard J. Daley.

― James Redd and the Blecchs, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 12:36 (eighteen years ago)

"Ned's commentary was full of pith. Four stars."

-- Rex Reed

"A masterpiece of laconic wit."

-- Village Voice

"Fits more sense into two words than I can fit into all of these words I am writing here in this sentence."

-- Aimless

― Aimless, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:47 (eighteen years ago)

three years pass...

On Gaul:

"It was shadow-haunted, sinister, dank with mud and slaughter. Travellers whispered of strange rites of sacrifice, performed in the dead of oaken glades, or by the side of black-watered, bottomless lakes. Sometimes, it was said, the nights would be lit by vast torches of wickerwork, erected in the form of giants, their limbs and bellies filled with prisoners writhing in an orgy of death."

― rent, Monday, 22 November 2010 11:57 (fifteen years ago)

love this guy

― rent, Monday, 22 November 2010 11:58 (fifteen years ago)

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