so i started gravity's rainbow the other day

I think it is very hard also. It took me c. 2 years to read. Wasted years? Maybe.

It is queer the number of people who talk about stopping at the bananas.

i've never read any postmodern lit (except lot 49 before this) because i hate it in theory, it's not my fave and i'm certain this won't be my fave either but it is fun as a lark, even an exteremely extended one. plus many wonderful discoveries await if you have patience, like the bit about the dodoes...

sorry im typing like this, i don't usually i don't think but...lots of caffiene.

where i stopped last [this] night [morning]: (slothrop has just bumbed into an old female companion in the street and is going up to her landlady's)

Mrs. Quoad's is up three dark flights, with the dome of faraway St. Paul's out its kitchen window visible in the smoke of certain afternoons, and the lady herself tiny in a rose plush chair in the sitting-room by the wireless, listening to Primo Scala's Accordion Band. She looks healthy enough. On the table, though, is her crumpled chiffon handkerchief: feathered blots of blood in and out the convolutions like a floral pattern.

and where i picked up this morning [afternoon]:

"You were here when I had that horrid quotidian ague," she recalls Slothrop, "the day we brewed the wormwood tea," sure enough, the very taste now, rising through his shoe-soles, taking him along. They're reassembling . . . it must be outside his memory . . . cool clean interior, girl and woman, independent of his shorthand of stars . . . so many fading-faced girls, windy canalsides, bed-sitters, bus-stop good-bys, how can he be expected to remember? but this room has gone on carifying: part of whoever he was inside has kindly remained, stored quiescent these months outside his head, distributed throygh all the grainy shadows, the grease-hazy jars of herbs, candies, spices; all the Compton Mackenzie novels on the shelf, glassy ambrotypes of her late husband Austin night-dusted inside gilded frams up on the mantel where last time Michaelmas daisies greeted and razzled from a little Sevres vase she and Austin found together one Saturday long ago in a Wardour Street shop. . . .

well that's fantastic, isn't it? and it isn't why isn't it???

that passage above is followed by a literally LOL scene where slothrop is gorged by each with the most unspeakably vile candies known to man. yeah this book is pretty genius and i am SO sorry about all the typos there...nevermind i guess but it is a typically great paragraph, trust me.

With almost any other writer there is, I can suppress this kind of idiotic neurotic questioning, but Tommy P gets me fired up every time.

i'm sorry i'm way too fucked up to discuss this right now but have you ever read any ts eliot? i promise to talk more later.

Post-modern lit in general yes is obnoxious but do not discount Donald Barthelme or early John Barth (through Chimera) if you are enjoying Gravity's Rainbow this much.

There's one other thing I just remembered about the style/plot split. The National Book Award selection committee chose Gravity's Rainbow under some kind of protest about its supposed unreadability. Pynchon sent a clown to accept the award.

That and the banana nausea thing early on were the two bits I enjoyed.

I think it may be slightly unhelpful to talk about GR as PoMo lit. I guess I would call it post-Beat, post-hippy, post-'permissive-age' / The 1960s / whatever US Romantic espionage fiction. But possibly for some that means PoMo.

The scene with Slothrop and the English girl I found offensive, or at least annoying. I have said often before, and seem to be saying again: the book is oversexed, sexually obsessed, crammed with promiscuity and rampant (male) infidelity, to an extent that to me was odious.

i haven't read this, at all, over the past three days. but tonight i will probably read some.

esotericness wasn't what got me, rather the bloated boringness. my eyes glazed over at the banana roll-call, and i skipped and skimmed around for several years running.

I don't know what 'hazmat' means.

(Haz - Hazardous Mat - Materials)

ugh. i hated catch 22. i think i have a problem with the late-modernist masculine canon.

Got much less bogged down the second time around - the first time there was definitely too much to take in all at once.

I've read Vineland twice too, and considering rereading M&D pretty soon - again, the sheer density means I probably missed a lot of the nuances first time around.

When I said 'I don't really agree', that meant, largely: 'you like the book and I don't'. I don't think I had very specific points in mind. But I will look and think, about that.

http://www.bookforum.com/pynchon.html

The long Gerald Howard piece is pretty interesting.

I loved all of the little anecdotes sprinkled throughout, like the alliterative restaurant dishes (pubic parfait and whatnot), Benny the Bulb, the boat that magically missed the torpedos, Roger Mexico pissing all over the boardroom and then crawling out under the table, etc. I like how Pynchon maintains a jovial/fantastical feel through most of the book, I don't think it'd be near as great if he was writing a realistic narrative. And has there ever been a more musical book? There was a song every ten pages it seemed

I have to say though that the pedophilia, poop-eating, toilet-diving, etc. made me squirm while I read it and grew somewhat tiresome by the end. I'll probably pick up the commentary book at some point and re-read GR with it, but before I read any more Pynchon, I need a few years off. Phew!

yeah that’s what i thought u meant

it took me a minute to realize that section was a flash forward to the ‘70s

otm that that old imago post is otm (followup about against the day also pretty convincing imo)-- i mean the book is literally a musical, not just with songs but with numbers; plus in certain places (all over but most brutally w the camp/daughter story + most universally w The Integral) the fake? unity of infinitely subdivided time that movies work by is both technique+theme, but yes, maybe only animation accustoms the audience to surreality+discontinuity in the way the book's treatment of this stuff requires?

still think laurie anderson should have called his bluff.

agreed

honestly i think pynchon earnestly wanted that to happen

the taffy skyscraper bit (is that the same bit?) is a crazed flash forward as well

i basically considered all the action plausible right up until the oneurine torpedo, at which point i realised none of it was. but still...it all really happened obv ;)

*oneirine idk

honestly i think pynchon earnestly wanted that to happen

yeah!

think it’s reasonable to assume slothrop didn’t have all that sex

only blicero gets his orgasm :(

(nah there are other orgasms in this book)

lol

btw this is such a rich thread, v thankful for ilx in times like these

Infinite jest slays GR in terms of readability

unfortunately gravity's rainbow has put me in the mood to attack both mason & dixon and against the day but i might hold off for at least another year

i would totally read w/ u, brad

i would much rather read (finish) m&d but i'd do my part for atd too

i'd be down for a group read tbh. too long since i've read pynchon. idk why i even bother to read anything else tbh.

miseducated prolly

I'm jumping into this, but we'll see how far I get. I read V. a few years ago, it had its moments, but didn't make tons of sense to me. So far this is more comprehensible, but I'm sure it won't last.

There are some great, heavily researched guides and supplements online for GR that follow basically page by page. Totally worth it. Really illuminated my reading experience.

One thing I have to say is, at least in my experience, you might be picking up more than you realize. Take those hallucinogenic detours for what they are. Pynchon shoots into space sometimes and you just have to ride it but it always comes back to the ground. Mostly.

Trickiest part for me was remembering the 2,000 or whatever characters. That’s where the guides come in handy.

The first appreciation I've read for Gravity's Rainbow in its 50th anniversary year – many more to come I'm sure. Arguing for Pynchon's relevance but asking – if reality has become as absurd as Pynchon, does that constitute an obstacle to reading him? https://t.co/4mgRk9q32C

— James B (@piercepenniless) February 17, 2023

There are some great, heavily researched guides and supplements online for GR that follow basically page by page. Totally worth it. Really illuminated my reading experience.

I should try that. I've read the book twice, have been contemplating a third read. I think a guide might add something. It did with Ulysses.

Happy 50th birthday!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fp_lwtqXgAMypQK.jpg

hb you amazing fucked-up freak :)

"tussodyne" is a 2023 meme just waiting to unfurl

nice to see Nestlé's original brand name before they went woke

hbtp

having read three copies of this to pieces (original trade paperback w swollen red sun, frank miller penguin classic ew, 70s mass market paperback w rainbow contrails-- this one in many pieces) maybe today is the day to find a copy of that nice earlier penguin w the rocket blueprints on it

...keep hearing thread title in Letterkenny voice...

FIrst read that as "in Lemmy's voice"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99wSTVMRkIk

(6'53" if you don't want to sit through the whole thing)

Hmm...

"These masterpieces have come to Deep Vellum and to Lawton thanks to Andrei, a friend of the press and the founding steward of The Untranslated blog, the seminal reference for great books not yet available to English-speaking audiences. Andrei, a Russian-speaking book blogger from Eastern Europe, launched The Untranslated in 2013. He has described the idea for the blog as having come from reading Gravity’s Rainbow as an undergrad and wondering if there were similar works in other languages."

https://t.e2ma.net/webview/3ss14i/5ba151f32c3c2e783aa4db148566b1e7

First of all, its incredible for a blog to have that much of an impact. That the niche idea it promotes has been taken up is something.

I feel this is all a bit of a dead end. We'll see...while this stuff is still niche there will be a lot more focus on it. I have struggled with The Untranslated's writing on these books.

much as i love gigantic excessive (post)modernism there's something about seeing them all bunched together as a genre that leaves me a little eye-rolly maybe?

the thing that leaves me eye-rolly is that solenoid, while not without interest, was also very much not without boredom - tho i feel equivocal, as some aspects of it have stayed with me. it should be much much shorter tho.

i feel totally unequivocal tho about garden of seven twilights being just utter crap.

so, something’s off. big books doing lumpy or tangled things isn’t enough to justify reading or publication really imo, though fair play to the original blog for surfacing writing, it’s just they’ve all been amplified above their intrinsic power (someone will surely tell me that’s a bad metaphor - that not really being what amplification is but hopefully ykwim)

kinda breaks the veneer of sui generisity right

Feels like Biographical Entries for a Catalogue of Vast Untranslated and Unreadable Postmodern Novels is already its own fully realised metafictional exercise.

This is also, more than anything, another twitter-related production. All of the translators and Andrei are on there constantly tweeting about these things, so something was definitely brewing.

On twitter there was a big bust-up (its niche but you know) with some other people over the translation of this book.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tutunamayanlar

Which I think was translated into English by his then partner. Could see them all trashing it one night. These boys are passionate! Which makes me pause, yes.

Atay's short stories are getting a translation. Which I am v much looking forward to.

https://www.nyrb.com/products/waiting-for-the-fear

The discourse has blown up a bit on twitter, via this piece.

https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/against-high-brodernism/

"Most concerning, for me, is that brodernist criticism interprets foreignness itself as “difficult.” The brodernist measures of “challenging” literature are a constrained series of attributes: winding sentences, explicit references to entropy and math and classical music, metanarration, anti-realism, lonely and existential male protagonists, brick-length tomes, cringey and misogynistic sex scenes, the stench of once having read Nietzsche, the words “psychedelic” and “oneiric,” half-hearted genre-play. Kafka, poor guy, gets thrown around a lot. The problem, to be clear, is not these traits—honest-to-God masterpieces compose much of the brodernist corpus—but their reduction into a series of attributes to be repeated as kitsch. Not the literature of exhaustion but an exhausting, at times exhausted, literature. A zombie avant-garde."

Would say there is much to be said for this. But after all is said and done we are not talking about big sellers that will have much impact.

Nevertheless, questions must be asked of it.

This is the next big brick:

https://store.deepvellum.org/products/schattenfroh

call it brodernism, with apologies for yet another portmanteau

He knew it was awful and he did it anyway!

That's right

Funny, I read but did not finish Krasznahorkai‘s first book Satantango or whatever and was deeply unimpresssed

I do agree with that paragraph above from the review, Pynchon has a lot of shit to answer for

I liked 'Seiobo There Below' quite a bit and wanted to read 'Melancholy of Resistance' (I love the title)

Satantango (the film) is all time for me.

re: GR. Obviously not Pynchon's fault he had copyists but its worth saying his own fiction went through some evolution from GR onwards.

On ILX I remember we had some discussion on many American made bricks that were comparable to GR, but not as good either (or that was some of the judgment, I haven't read Underworld).

The piece is being seen as minimising women who write, read and like this stuff. Many are citing Marguerite Young but Macintosh is (from what I read of it) working at a different angle to GR. That para I pulled out attacks a particular niche and it feels like a sub tweet of that blog.

Yeah I would say Macintosh is nothing like Pynchon, maybe they are even opposites.

I only recently found out that John Holmes (no not...), the artist who painted the cover for the first UK paperback of Gravity's Rainbow, also painted the cover for the UK paperback of Jaws:

https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/61QAAOSwkwxnhjMC/s-l1200.jpg

https://i0.wp.com/m.bookcoverreview.co.uk/JawsFrontCover.png?w=2000

This bump reminding me I have The Luminaries and Ducks, Newburyport lying unread on my shelves. Yes yes I'll get to them...someday...

haha wow re: Jaws and GR

I finally traded in my unread Infinite Jest this week, after a good twenty years' aging on the shelf. I figure I can easily get another copy if I ever do decide to read it.