The Age of Literary Conceits

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I stopped in a bookstore (well, actually, a Barnes & Noble) the other day because I wanted to see if they had anything by Orhan Pamuk -- I don't know his work but I've heard the hype and I've been interested in Turkey lately.

Anyway, they only had "My Name is Red." About halfway down the first page I felt a dull pain -- it's narrated by a DEAD PERSON. Why? Why need there be yet another novel narrated from the grave? Or by a precocious child? Or by an autistic dog who's had a stroke?

Is this the product of a bottom-line-obsessed publishing age where every book needs a distinctive gimmick? "Oh look, this is the book I heard about, the one narrated by the Alpaca" "You mean the one with the two Alpaca narrators who do alternate chapters?" "No, this one Isaac NEWTON's Alpaca."

Or have writers confused themselves with actors, seeing it as a "challenge" to play difficult "roles?" (By the way, I'm not that fond of this trait in most actors, either.)

Of course, writers like Faulkner and Nabokov had some such narrative conceits themselves, but it worked because they were good writers, not the other way around.

Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 29 June 2005 01:28 (twenty years ago)

Christ! It's a good thing I didn't keep reading!

(From the NYTimes review):

The story is told by each of a dozen characters, and now and then by a dog, a tree, a gold coin, several querulous corpses and the color crimson (''My Name Is Red'').

Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 29 June 2005 01:58 (twenty years ago)

I agree with you, Hurting. This also seems lame to me. I blame academia.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 29 June 2005 02:06 (twenty years ago)

But this shirks the crucial question... is Orhan Pamuk a cunt?

Aimless (Aimless), Wednesday, 29 June 2005 02:49 (twenty years ago)

Who knows, maybe if Lolita came out today I wouldn't give it a chance either? Maybe I'm just a dismissive prick who's too lazy to read more than the first three pages of most books.

Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 29 June 2005 03:36 (twenty years ago)

Fewer conceits like "told from the point of view of a dead dog" and more like "told entirely in trochees".

Casuistry (Chris P), Wednesday, 29 June 2005 05:18 (twenty years ago)

how about both, at once?

tom west (thomp), Wednesday, 29 June 2005 08:29 (twenty years ago)

someone plz try and do this, i've been thinking about it but can't

tom west (thomp), Wednesday, 29 June 2005 08:30 (twenty years ago)

James Wood is good on this kind of thing, most recently in last week's evisceration of Nicole Krauss in the LRB:

The contemporary novelist, anxious to make her characters vital, overdoes the vitality; and then, anxious about the overdoing, attempts to ironise some of that cartoonishness. One should have sympathy for this tricky dilemma – a basic one of novelistic creation, and scarcely avoided by hundreds of even very great writers – especially in the case of a young writer. But Krauss’s novel has been praised precisely for the ‘brilliance’ of its portrayal of Leo Gursky, for its ability to capture a ‘voice’. Or two voices: Leo’s and Alma’s. Can we now no longer tell the difference between human vitality and the theatrical vitality of Hollywood? When publishers talk about a novelist’s or a narrator’s ‘voice’, the word is evacuated of content: ‘voice’ does not have to belong to a plausible human being; ‘voice’ is merely vocal – it is the sound of exaggeration; the sound of ‘liveliness’, not the lifelike.

How telling, then, that Krauss’s two ‘voices’ inhabit the extremes of age: the child and the pensioner. Both characters, in a way, are children, because they speak with the whimsy of the child; at one point, Gursky, feeling happy in Starbucks, wants to burst out: ‘The plural of elf is elves! What a language! What a world!’ The child represents a short-cut to fictional vitality, and fiction has been especially fond in recent years of the childish speaker: there is Mark Haddon’s autistic narrator; and the heroine of The Lovely Bones; and the brilliant, near-autistic nine-year-old narrator of Jonathan Safran Foer’s most recent novel. This vocal juvenility represents a fear of the median (and by ‘median’ I do not imply mere ordinariness). Unfortunately, the result of all this childishness, emphatically so in Krauss’s case, is a novel that is not a grown-up book for grown-up readers.

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Wednesday, 29 June 2005 10:15 (twenty years ago)

When publishers talk about a novelist’s or a narrator’s ‘voice’, the word is evacuated of content: ‘voice’ does not have to belong to a plausible human being

I'm very sympathetic to the thrust of his argument (and that of the thread so far), but disagree that the term "voice" is "evacuated of content" because it does not have to belong to a "plausible human being". (I'm probably splitting hairs here, but there's a difference between artificial content and no content). I think "fear of the median" is exactly right, though.

There seems to me some revival of interest in the literary novel, or at least semi-literary novel, and that it is bound up with a notion of self-improvement. Many readers don't want radical novels that are too hard to read, but nor do they want beautifully written but conventionally structured novels: they have already read a number of these and feel that in self-improvement terms, the law of diminishing returns must have kicked in some time ago. These novelty perspective novels satisfy a craving for novels that are obviously modern (& fashionably so) and yet readable. Fear of the median is also fear of not selling - or simply being ignored, because however much reviewers may deplore the trends these novels represent they are also the novels that are getting reviewed.

frankiemachine, Wednesday, 29 June 2005 11:34 (twenty years ago)

I just thing these kinds of stylistic tics are a product of laziness and overweening ambition. It's a poor man's substitute for writing well. We have a generation of over-educated, writing-workshop-tamed writers who think they've seen everything and have been taught by academicized critics to overestimate the importance of superficial formal innovations. It's also perhaps a desperation marketing ploy - a way to be noticed and remembered in a shrinking, overcrowded literary marketplace - having a unique narratorial gambit provides a handy mnemonic for readers deluged by cookie-cutter debut fiction - even if the end effect is to make the writing less memorable, not more.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 29 June 2005 14:42 (twenty years ago)

I just think - not thing. I should really re-read these things before I post them.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 29 June 2005 14:43 (twenty years ago)

I do think it's partly a writing workshop thing also. I took a few writing workshops myself and writing in these sorts of "voices" was highly encouraged.

Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 29 June 2005 15:03 (twenty years ago)

Surely you guys remember this thread?

k/l (Ken L), Wednesday, 29 June 2005 15:25 (twenty years ago)

So, o. nate, what is it that you want out of a novel?

Casuistry (Chris P), Wednesday, 29 June 2005 16:21 (twenty years ago)

Well, I wouldn't say there aren't interesting things to be done with the narratorial voice - look for instance at Peter Carey's True History of the Kelly Gang (one of my favorite novels of recent years) in which the book is narrated by an uneducated outlaw with poor grammar and unusual diction - it's just that I think that having books narrated by inanimate objects, dead people, infants, etc. is just kind of gimmicky and lame. I just don't see why that's supposed to be interesting. The thing that's great about Kelly Gang is that Carey fully inhabits the voice of his character and he finds a type of blunt poetry there. It's not just a gimmick because it actually works.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 29 June 2005 16:31 (twenty years ago)

woods awful as per usual

i was really hoping the new answers would be dialogues in the voice of a dead trochaic dog ;_;

tom west (thomp), Wednesday, 29 June 2005 17:26 (twenty years ago)

frankiemachine poss. otm in second paragraph.

i'm not sure what "median" is meant to mean here.

i'm not sure that "narrated by a dead dog" is technically a literary conceit, come to think of it, not in the way that "in trochees" is

tom west (thomp), Wednesday, 29 June 2005 17:31 (twenty years ago)

These novelty perspective novels satisfy a craving for novels that are obviously modern (& fashionably so) and yet readable

Not only that, but they don't require much in the way of attention span - a must in this age of cell-phone, cable TV, Internet, etc. and their constant bombardment of our free reading time. It takes a while to get into a meaty novel, to learn the characters, understand the milieu, to follow all the plot lines - whereas a novelty gimmick can be assimilated in the time it takes to read the back cover - there is an immediate gratification that the more old-fashioned literary pleasures do not provide.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 29 June 2005 17:44 (twenty years ago)

You could argue that the same thing has happened in the contemporary art world: conceptual one-joke pieces that provide a big pop at first look crowd out more subdued and introspective works with old-fashioned painterly virtues that take more time to unfold.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 29 June 2005 17:47 (twenty years ago)

****ist

tom west (thomp), Wednesday, 29 June 2005 17:48 (twenty years ago)

If it doesn't deserve four stars I won't read it!

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 29 June 2005 17:51 (twenty years ago)

I am very much guilty of falling for things like this.

Two movies I've read about recently that I might not have cared about except for the conceit (or at least the conceit makes me really excited):

*The Todd Haynes movie about Dylan, where Dylan is played by several different actors and actresses, including BEYONCE.

*The Sally Potter movie (Yes) where everyone speaks in rhyming couplets (Chris, is this close enough to your "told entirely in trochees" desire?).

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 29 June 2005 19:04 (twenty years ago)

That said, The Lovely Bones and The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time both kinda sucked.

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 29 June 2005 19:06 (twenty years ago)

As I said, I really DON'T want to see the Dylan movie just because of the seven different actors thing.

Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 29 June 2005 22:23 (twenty years ago)

It's not just a gimmick because it actually works.

So, yeah, the problem isn't that it's a gimmick or conceit, it's that it doesn't work. You could write a book told from a dead child's pet rock, and it could work.

Casuistry (Chris P), Wednesday, 29 June 2005 22:39 (twenty years ago)

I can't imagine that working - but I'd be happy to consider any counter-examples.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 29 June 2005 23:31 (twenty years ago)

I think there's a distinction to be drawn between writing as a character (Ned Kelly) and writing as a dead parrot. Dead parrots don't talk.

Hurting (Hurting), Thursday, 30 June 2005 00:39 (twenty years ago)

Could God create a conceit so ridiculous that He couldn't write a successful novel around it?

I suspect most successful literary conceit novels are science fiction. Actually at this point I suspect most success novels are science fiction. But I don't read enough novels, or enough science fiction, to have a list of examples, or even to know if what I just said is true.

Casuistry (Chris P), Thursday, 30 June 2005 04:54 (twenty years ago)

OK, let's consider my list of Fifty books for Cozen to read. and the narrators (or main characters that might as well be narrators) therein.

1 is a square. 2 is a typical novel character. 3 has several narrators that are one step away from death. 11 is a typical novel character, but he's trapped in his bedroom. 15 is a guy who is planning to lock himself in a room for a year to write a novel. 16 is a typical novel character. 22, which to be fair isn't a novel at all, is a hermaphoditic pansexual cat. 24 is, for purposes of this list, a sleeping man. 25 is a typical novel character. 28 is the last person alive in the world. 33 is a normal vaguely novelistic character. 35 is half memoire, half description of a fictional island nation obsessed with an Olympics. 36 is actually about the adventures of a story rather than about the characters in the story. 39 again isn't a novel, but it does have normal characters. 44 is told from somebody who spends half the book in utero, and who as I recall ends the book still as a child. 45 is told by a monster with anxiety and self-esteem issues. 50 have cartoonish but still typical novel characters.

Now I'm sure I'm not a typical novel reader (since after all I don't really like novels in general) but a decent portion of the novels I like have odd conceits for main characters. Someone else posted a list of 50 books; I wonder how that list compares. Or that [Modern Library?] list of the top 100 novels.

Casuistry (Chris P), Thursday, 30 June 2005 05:10 (twenty years ago)

is one of them mayakovsky and el lissitsky?! oh - well i guess their squares aren't narrators. : (

Josh (Josh), Thursday, 30 June 2005 06:59 (twenty years ago)

i hope 28 is wittgenstein's mistress and 44 is tristram shandy!

Josh (Josh), Thursday, 30 June 2005 07:01 (twenty years ago)

i did think to affix a point to that but then i didn't feel like bothering. carry on.

Josh (Josh), Thursday, 30 June 2005 09:03 (twenty years ago)

'member barking. 'member sunshine. chasing. frisbee. things gone. all gone. gone car. fast car. hitting. snout gone paws gone legs gone all gone. gone paws. gone legs. now pain now light now dark. now gone.

tom west (thomp), Thursday, 30 June 2005 10:55 (twenty years ago)

I hope so too, Josh!

k/l (Ken L), Thursday, 30 June 2005 12:16 (twenty years ago)

I don't think Wood was awful as usual. I think he was eloquent, readable and fun as usual, and bracingly polemical as often. I was excited, reading through that LRB, in a poor and enervated state, to discover his piece - an unexpected treat on an unenjoyable day. I am pleased to see JtN quoting him.

What I found most amusing about that Wood piece was how it waded into exactly the same territory that caused so much discussion on the Wood thread - his annoyance at writers trying too hard to produce a Jewish voice. It was almost as though he had read us and decided deliberately to rile half of ILB.

the pinefox, Thursday, 30 June 2005 13:45 (twenty years ago)

You can click on the link and discover for yourself, of course, Josh, but 1 is Flatland, the great novel by E. Abbott Abbott.

Casuistry (Chris P), Thursday, 30 June 2005 19:11 (twenty years ago)

I think both 'Snow' and 'The New Life' are far better books by Pamuk than 'My Name is Red'. It's strange that 'My Name is Red' is the one that the most noise was made about.

Joe Kay (feethurt), Thursday, 30 June 2005 21:30 (twenty years ago)

Actually, Snow was the one I heard more about -- I didn't know "My Name is Red" until I went into B&N and it was the only one they had by Pamuk.

Hurting (Hurting), Thursday, 30 June 2005 21:36 (twenty years ago)

My comedy gland keeps producing cartoonish characters, and I like reading speculative, fairy-tale-like, and fantasy literature -- but I cringe at the thought of workshoppy "point-of-view" conceits. Why do I feel perfectly happy reading the interior monologue of something that for all I know doesn't exist (a Martian, someone who's funny 24-7) but want to throttle an author who wants to make me ponder the thoughts of something real but insentient or subverbal (rock, dog, tabloid star)? To be honest I'm happiest just reading me some Henry James or Stendhal or Lodge. Not about Everyman, but certainly about Plausibleman.

(Although a novel written from the point of view of Britney Spears's fucking lapdog might amuse me for an hour or two -- especially if it thought in sonnets.)

Ann Sterzinger (Ann Sterzinger), Saturday, 2 July 2005 00:24 (twenty years ago)

I remember reading something by Lodge where he was excited about a rediscovery of Bakhtin "rescuing" postmodern literature with the concept of skaz which maybe had something to do with a "carnival of voices" which already fit it the novelist tradition going back to Rabelais, if I remember correctly. No doubt this is already old news and things have already progressed way beyond this since I last time I looked into this.

k/l (Ken L), Saturday, 2 July 2005 01:12 (twenty years ago)

Again, I was disappointed that Flush wasn't actually told from Flush's point of view as I had been lead to believe. It would have made a much better book.

Casuistry (Chris P), Saturday, 2 July 2005 05:07 (twenty years ago)

chris, i did figure it out myself after deciding that the only other thing it could have been was 'flatland'. though i now realize that i forgot 'geometric regional novel' or whatever it's called, which i haven't read and thus couldn't knowledgably exclude anyway.


how would skaz rescue postmodern literature?


tonight i read the kafka story 'the bridge'. at first i read it in german, understanding little of it, and certainly not enough to have picked up what was obvious on the second reading (which happened to be in english). on the first reading i said, hey, look, a story told from the point of view of an object - the narrator is a bridge! but it's far better than that. apart from maybe the way the introduction implies the story (only about a paragraph long or so) is a remembered dream or something imagined, it's told by a narrator who -acts as a bridge-. and the hint is basically that of using the past tense with no other indication the story is a dream ('i was a bridge'), combined with the, you know, unbelievability of someone being a bridge. somehow i find this far more appealing than the story i imagined after having read the german version and misunderstood it. that one i think mostly worked because i gave it a pass on being narrated by a bridge because i imagined it being, you know, 'kafkaesque'.

Josh (Josh), Saturday, 2 July 2005 05:12 (twenty years ago)

also, is flatland a novel? i ask only in order to promote the diversity of prose forms.

Josh (Josh), Saturday, 2 July 2005 05:13 (twenty years ago)

Why wouldn't Flatland be a novel? It's perhaps more than just a novel (it's a political tract, a parable about religion/knowledge, a math text, a visualization tool) but it has characters and a narrative (by the end, A. Square is probably a more "three dimensional" [har har] character than, say, Jeeves or Wooster).

Casuistry (Chris P), Saturday, 2 July 2005 08:12 (twenty years ago)

i'm thinking on some northrop frye shit i.e. that long narrative prose works are not necessarily novels. and not to their detriment.

also, i was asking out of ignorance since i've never read it.

Josh (Josh), Saturday, 2 July 2005 09:51 (twenty years ago)

as contrasted to my question about skaz, which i know a slight bit about and so am confused as to how, not being a particularly new feature exploitable by narratives, it would be of any special use to postmodern fiction, unless the idea was supposed to be that some of these authors have been neglecting some fruitful possibilities (which seems wrong and thus not what was meant).

Josh (Josh), Saturday, 2 July 2005 09:54 (twenty years ago)

My layman's understanding is that poststructuralism (did I say postmodernism?) and its emphasis on fragmentation, indeterminacy of meaning, on signifiers pointing at each other, or worse, pointing nowhere, wad leading literature and literary criticism into a cul de sac, a black hole, but the recuperation of Bakhtin replaced the lack of meaning with a multiplicity of meaning.

k/l (Ken L), Saturday, 2 July 2005 12:22 (twenty years ago)

Interesting. I read "My Name is Red" last year and found it to be a very good book. Perhaps "I am one of those people without much in the way of attention span who cannot get into a meaty novel". Does this mean I should go get a copy of the Da Vinci Code or a Jack Grisham novel?

Seriously, the question that I would ask is if a book is based around a literary conceit, does that make it worthless? Or is it only acceptable to use a literary conceit if you are a great writer? If so how is a great writer defined? When they make it into a list of the great writers of the 20th century? or when they are added to a classics of the western canon list? And how can you judge if a author is poor, average, good or great when you read only a page or two of his book?

oblomov, Tuesday, 5 July 2005 07:02 (twenty years ago)

Well, I don't want to try to define "great writer" here. I also don't want to say that a book should never be narrated by a dead person, an animal, or even an object, if it can be done well, and I'm sure in some cases it is done well. The problem is more that it seems so pervasive today that every time I pick up another book with such a device I groan. If enough people told me that "My Name is Red" was worth reading, I'd still give it a try, but I don't feel I can trust book reviews anymore, even the NYTimes, as they tend to get breathless over this sort of thing.

Hurting (Hurting), Tuesday, 5 July 2005 13:53 (twenty years ago)

Using some tricky device as a starting point to create an interesting, witty or clever piece of writing (cf. the Oulipo) = Classic

Writing from the point of view of a little kid or a ghost or a deaf, dumb and blind old man because it is "cute" and engenders sympathy = Dud.

k/l (Ken L), Tuesday, 5 July 2005 14:15 (twenty years ago)

Actually the way it's being described here is interesting: As if, at this point, there has to be a great novel written from such a point of view, and everyone is taking part in a sort of contest to see whose novel will succeed at it.

Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 5 July 2005 14:20 (twenty years ago)

I got the Pamuk novel from the library yesterday. Haven't opened it yet.

(they didn't have the new Safran Foyer) (i checked)

tom west (thomp), Tuesday, 5 July 2005 20:09 (twenty years ago)

so, uh, can someone who knows these things tell me if is this actually pervasive or if lots of these people ^^^^ are just being hysterical?

tom west (thomp), Tuesday, 5 July 2005 20:10 (twenty years ago)

I thought that the first chapter in My Name is Red ("I am a Corpse") was gimmicky as well, but as the book goes on it becomes less of a gimmick and more of a cool storytelling device. Most of the narrators are main characters who hand off point-of-view between them like a baton, which I think works especially well considering that the book is primarily a mystery.

The chapters narrated by dead people/abstract concepts/figures in paintings are few and far between.

Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 12:51 (twenty years ago)


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