So have I been misreading Simone de Beauvoir all along?

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So I have to read another one of la Simone's overrated works for my French lit of the 20th century course -- talk about "usual suspects," Booker discussers!!! -- and suddenly it dawns on me: what if she WANTS me to hate her 'protagonists'? Is that it? Are all of her books actually incredibly subtle parodies of self-absorption that I'm just not French enough -- or genuinely female enough? or genuinely male enough? -- to understand? Help. Because I have to write a paper about "La Femme Rompue," and if I can't keep my sense of humor about it I'm just going to type IDIOTEIDIOTEIDIOTE over and over for ten pages. I especially love the part where she generalizes about how all peres have an idealized image of their daughters they want the poor widdle girls to live up to, while all meres = good and accepting of their daughters however they turn out. WHAT?!?!? I'm supposed to sympathize with this person? Do you think the professor would mind if, instead of writing ABOUT the book, I write another novel from the POV of the woman this drip's husband leaves her for? I realize that I live in a different era from the one this woman endured. I realize I am bad for not worshipping the ground my feminist foremothers plowed (HAWWW HAW HAW) for me, and if all womyn shared my attitude we'd all slide back into cave life. BUT I STILL WANT TO SLAP THE SHIT OUT OF THIS CHARACTER. Please help me to laff.

Ann Stermazzingle, Thursday, 10 November 2005 23:58 (twenty years ago)

So how do you prove her wrong? Remember that she's talking about her society, not yours (obv you've already acknowledged that), and that the "all" that she is using generally allows a few exceptions and means something along the lines of "95%".

Anyway, I haven't read SdB, and this is hardly encouraging me to!

Casuistry (Chris P), Friday, 11 November 2005 00:31 (twenty years ago)

Bitch slap away to your heart's content, please!

Were I you, I would acknowledge that Simone could conceivably be describing some set of humans, but that, should hre description be true to life, then they are, as a set, the most ill-conceived, idiotic, pitable excuses for humans it has been your displeasure to have had thrust upon your attention, and that, given this, even the so-called sympathetic characters were, in your humble view, fit for nothing higher than to serve as horrific examples of stunted, twisted humunculi. Title your paper "The Sorrow and the Pity".

Aimless (Aimless), Friday, 11 November 2005 02:37 (twenty years ago)

you could read her nonfiction works in order to try to separate things beauvoir might think from ways she depicts characters as acting in order to achieve certain effects.

Josh (Josh), Friday, 11 November 2005 04:48 (twenty years ago)

That is the kind of remarkably good advice that suggests someone has tau-- oh, hi, Josh!

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 11 November 2005 23:05 (twenty years ago)

yes

Fred (Fred), Sunday, 13 November 2005 15:40 (twenty years ago)

Do write another novel! There's still two and a half weeks left. Check out the NaNoWriMo thread. You can do it!

pepektheassassin (pepektheassassin), Monday, 14 November 2005 16:47 (twenty years ago)

leaf it to me to start a thread and then forget to go on line for another week... I still haven't written that damn paper... but hi guys... I can't bring myself to discuss it, class was hard enough... I started to open my mouth and then realized I was the only person in the room who was not either a married female or a female who wanted marriage... one of them was even about-to-drop pregnant. I'm just going to write a very strict, cold textual analysis, which should be nice and boring considering debeau's carver-as-a-frenchwoman ultradull repetitive prose. "I am afraid. I afraid am. Afraid, I am." I'M AFRAID THAT THERE IS NO ROOM FOR MY WRITING IN A WORLD THAT WORSHIPS SUCH... PROSAIC ASPIRIN.

ASSTERZINGER, Saturday, 19 November 2005 21:48 (twenty years ago)

BTW, I'm also just learning ancient Greek and... can anyone tell me why repetitions sound cool in Greek but horrible, silly, and pretentious in French and English? Anyone know whether they work in German? Is it all the consonants, or the declined nouns, or what? Granted, the reps don't sound bad to everyone, I guess that's why some writers use them, but to me they're like fingernails on a (*#*$# blackboard and when I do one I consider it an ERROR...

Assterzinger, Sunday, 20 November 2005 00:17 (twenty years ago)

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by repetitions -- do you mean the English preference for not using the same word twice in a sentence? It comes off as odd in English because we have a tradition of not doing that, of avoiding it. And when something breaks tradition like that, how can it seem anything other than horrible, silly, or pretentious? But there's no reason for such a rule, and repetition certainly makes reading a text in a very unfamiliar language much easier.

Casuistry (Chris P), Sunday, 20 November 2005 21:32 (twenty years ago)

But-but-but OK, I'm a native English-language reader, so the "mere tradition" explanation explains why no reps sounds better to me in English. It miiiiight explain why the reps still sound horrific in my second modern language, which admittedly is about 2 billion times more familiar to me than down-from-outer-space Greek. But STILL AND ALL... if my brain is attuned to a non-rep tradition, regardless of how unfamiliar the new language, regardless of how much easier it makes things, wouldn't you think the reps would still annoy me? And I don't think such rules exist without reason, actually. Just because I can't figure out what it is yet doesn't necessarily make it senseless, you... you... linguistic atheist, you! (haw)

assturdslinger, Wednesday, 23 November 2005 04:02 (twenty years ago)

But also, all the French you've read comes from that tradition. So it would look weird there, too.

Come on, surely the "men/de" thing is weird enough, right? Or the stacking of articles?

Casuistry (Chris P), Wednesday, 23 November 2005 04:51 (twenty years ago)

You should still post an example of the repitition you're enjoying.

Casuistry (Chris P), Wednesday, 23 November 2005 04:53 (twenty years ago)

I'd just like to point out that the subject of this thread is responsible for my as-yet-unused drag name, Simone D. Boulevard. That is all.

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 23 November 2005 06:50 (twenty years ago)

applause.

Josh (Josh), Wednesday, 23 November 2005 07:00 (twenty years ago)

Bwhuhow do I post shit in Greek without spending an hour in MS word with the insert symbol function and then having it come out gobbledygook anyway? If I had a scanner I'd just put my textbook down on it...

computerishly anncompentent, Thursday, 24 November 2005 05:31 (twenty years ago)

The arduous way is to type out each letter: λ is λ. So λογος is λογος. That last f is for "final". Capitalize by capitalizing the letter: Π is Π.

OK, let's see if that worked!

Casuistry (Chris P), Thursday, 24 November 2005 06:08 (twenty years ago)

It did!

The less arduous way is to tranlistate: logos.

Or, since you're showing a specific effect, you could even do a sort of word-for-word translation.

Casuistry (Chris P), Thursday, 24 November 2005 06:10 (twenty years ago)

Translistate? I'm so new to this stuff i've never heard that word. It's pretty, though. OK, here we go with the translistation -- I can't even post italics here without tearing up small cities, so forget the code business... except, shit. There's really no English equivalent of Xi, is there? And I wanted to use an example with lots of Xis in it so may I just use X? Thanks...

Xalepon to may philaysai
Xalepon de kai philaysai:
Xaleponteron de panton
apotunxanein philounta.

Oh god that looks silly.

Oh well, what else would you expect from me?

Ann-acreon, Friday, 25 November 2005 00:39 (twenty years ago)

I was hella drunk on Listerine when I typed that. I obviously meant "transliterate".

I have no idea what that means, but it looks like it reads like a proverb, something like "Easy come, easy go" or "Early to bed, early to rise makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise".

Casuistry (Chris P), Friday, 25 November 2005 06:14 (twenty years ago)

It means -- my Greek professor calls Anacreon the she-done-me-wrong songwriter of antiquity -- heh and now I'm the one who's drunk, though not on Listerine you goof -- so correct me if I'm wrong but:

it's painriffic not to fall in love
paintastic to fall in love
but the most penible of alls
is to falls in lurves and lose it.

After I posted that I was going, for contrast, to post some deeboolervard but it hurted my brainfingers too mush.

Yerp, well, I prefer proverbs to self-pitying nothingness. O little miss de Bourgeois (yeah ha ha the obvious shot but hey, it must be nice to have such a dandy lil platform from which to build one's overrated lil existence) has failed to touch me and I am the sex for which she ostentatiously speaks but all I hear is her unintentional humor, which admittedly is Q-wite the fucking gas...

I'm quite disappointed that translisteration isn't actually a word. My wilful gulliability has provided me with countless hours of brutally cut-off bliss.

annvelvetcake, Friday, 25 November 2005 06:43 (twenty years ago)

I think songs, especially love songs, repeat words like that all the time, even in English, though! "Them that's got shall get, them that's not shall lose, so the Bible says, and it still is news. Papa may have, Mama may have, but God bless the child that's got his own."

Casuistry (Chris P), Friday, 25 November 2005 07:11 (twenty years ago)

Hhhhmmm, yassss, maybe the language isn't the difference: maybe it's the fact that this shit works in poetry/songs but not in prose?
(Note to self: don't drink with 23-year-olds. Good Christ, I'm reading my "translation" and convulsing with laughter at the idiot...) The counterexample to "it doesn't work in French" that I came up with this morning was that old saying "Je suis ce que je suis mais je ne suis pas ce que je suis" (imagine it on a plaque with a boy following a donkey).

anneringer, Friday, 25 November 2005 22:11 (twenty years ago)

I liked your translation, but it didn't keep the repetition!

Casuistry (Chris P), Friday, 25 November 2005 22:42 (twenty years ago)

Actually, reading my loss of reps in the translation made me think as well: Maybe one reason Greek reps work for me is that a lot of the words they're repeating don't have a single English equivalent, so a not-quite-the-same concept is thumping in my mind every time the word sounds, if you get me.

Whereas French translates much better word-by-word to my native tongue, so deboo repeating herself sounds much clunkier.

Which still begs the question, however: how did native speakers of ancient Greek stay entertained with all the reps? Sometimes I get the feeling their whole damn language was a playful game of "je ne suis pas ce que je suis..."

Or maybe they decided, "fuck, we invented vowels, what more do you want from us? We're going to chant now."

(Yeahyeah, all they invented was making vowels separate characters, and even that has probably been disputed, but it sounds funny the way I put it, or so I think...)

annbistro, Saturday, 26 November 2005 06:45 (nineteen years ago)

They were really into rhetoric and balance, but not so much into rhyme. What else can they do? Also they only had a few words, remember. English has a ton more words for things. We have "wonton" and "pierogi" whereas they only had "baklava" which isn't anything like "pierogi"!

Casuistry (Chris P), Saturday, 26 November 2005 06:59 (nineteen years ago)

See, I always think "I should give em vocabulistic leeway due to the fact that all we have is just a fraction of the literature..." and yet then I pick up my text and the adjective xalepos has forty different fucking meanings and I think "Casuistry is right, they just didn't have as many damn words, which means this should be easier to learn than modern languages, so why does it seem harder? Have i finally gone senile in the past 6 months? I'll never be able to learn German, bawl, stupid backwoods school system, I wonder if I can sue..."

annsfacile, Saturday, 26 November 2005 08:33 (nineteen years ago)


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