The Legion Of Super Heroes: Classic Or Dud?

Also also S: The Giffen / Grant / Kitson L.E.G.I.O.N. series - post-Legends, taking place during the modern day; the only time Lobo's been palatable (outside of Justice League); Brainiac's a bastard!; the rock being's a she!; the nebbish gets the Emerald Eye! (I also liked the bits that were all Barry Kitson, too, circa #50, but I hesitate to recommend those.)

Of course, Legion is being cancelled to make room for The Legion of Super Heroes by Mark Waid & Barry Kitson. Gosh, if only other Jim Shooter creations had the type of tenacious longevity the Legion possessed.

BRAINIAC 5. Brainy was a total tool. He had a shot at Supergirl, and he fucked it up because he was always too busy dicking around with spores in the multi-lab. Not all that fuckin' brainy, now, was he?

Holy crappity crap!
http://www.fact-index.com/l/li/list_of_legion_of_super_heroes_members.html

never mind my "holy crappity crap" that link is pretty rub.

(incidentally when is Chuck Austen going to have Superman fight two super-sisters called Virgin and Whore?)

Which meant she had low standards.

(On that unseemly note, the 30th Century was the most chaste place in all time, but it gradually got filthier and filthier until Growing Boy was accusing Sun Boy of porking his wife over a 'friendly' game of Hyper Dungeons And Dragons.)

Phantom Girl's ponytails, my god...

D: pretty much anything else. skim the Giffenless ones written by Levitz if you like, they're not awful as such. just about anything from the '70s is nigh-unreadable (including the over-age Jim Shooter).

The dystopian relaunch would have been supermegaultraclassic if the Superman office hadn't forced them to reboot the universe at the end of the third issue. They handled it pretty well, but really lost momentum on the overall story what with having to spend every other issue introducing new stand-in characters and rewriting history. Still, the first twenty or so non-fill-ins are great and I kept reading up until the editor fired the writers and got the colourist to start writing from the editor's plots (true story!).

he was still dead from fighting the Space Moby Dick thirty years before. when Proty had sacrificed his life energy to reanimate Garth, it was all done with mirrors and the little blob of protoplasm actually just shapeshifted into a Lightning Lad shape and proceeded to enjoy all the benefits of upgrading from "Legion mascot" to "Legion founder". to wit, boning Saturn Girl 'til the Space Cows came home.

waitasec, how did he manage to impregnate her then? I suspect someone's playing fast and loose with the laws of biology here.

It will all fit on a couple of CD-Rs if anyone's desperate. Frankly I'm probably going to delete the bulk of it.

http://www.dccomics.com/slideshows/wwt04_dc/slide_images/10.jpg

A QUESTION TO THE ILC:

Having never read anything vaguely Legion-ish (discounting Brendan McCarthy’s issue of SOLO), would it be wise for me to pick up the much-ballyhooed-round-these-here-parts Johns ACTION COMICS Legion epic? I fear I’d comprehend only the conjunctions (as with earlier dalliances with Mr. Johns’ work) and be left with a whole bunch of pretty pictures by Mr. Frank… (And, gosh, they are pretty – the sole reason for this query comes from the compulsion to shout “Yowza!” as I glanced through the art of one issue at the Borders floppy rack yesterday.)

Good question. I read them as exceedingly well-executed continuity porn, but I can sort of imagine somebody who'd never heard of the Legion coming to them and pretending this was the first time we'd seen any of these characters. But I don't know, because I'm so used to all the stuff he's playing with. (Every character's first appearance does have a little breakout box explaining their name, powers, etc.)

In other words: I can't answer that.

Three yays for justifying confusion aesthetically! (I.E. I THINK I WILL HAVE A GO, DONCHA KNOW?)

It's fun. I'm not a Legion nerd at all -- I've read a couple of the 5YL issues, and the first year or so of the Waid/Kitson Legion -- but it's pretty easy to follow. The continuity-wank aspects seem largely incidental, and it's a nice, done-in-six story without too many loose ends. As usual, all the non-Braniac characters are largely indistinguishable, but it doesn't really matter as far as the story goes.

Also, in what might be a rare moment of sentimentality for Geoff Johns, no one gets their arms ripped off. Or any other appendages, if I remember right.

I think you could read that Action comics storyline with no prior knowledge to the older Legion stories. I think the way Johns wrote that story is partially to try to introduce people to the Legion. The book does a pretty good job dropping a box to tell you who is who in the beginning of the book and puts some back ground into the actual storyline.

To me, I think the fact that the Legion takes place 1000 years in the future should give whoever is doing the book free reign to go where you want. I kind of like the idea that there have been many different versions of the Legion, some with evolved beginnings and even ends.

Some of the fans of the older series don't seem to like the Waid newer Legion, but from my reading (through issue #14), I think it is pretty good.

I don't understand DC's reprint strategy, but it seems to me if they had the Levitz/Giffen stuff in a big phone book reprint they would sell very well. Take mind, there is a bunch of stuff I think that should be in print like that. I can see wanting to print stuff 'in order' or in fancy nice trades, but there are lots of stuff that still ties into current books that people can only read if they want to dive into the back issue bins.

The showcases are pretty much gold.

What Earl said re: Action/Legion. Especially for a Johns comic, it's not that mired in any Legion continuity...if anything, it seems to be a whole new thing (inasmuch as any LOSH story can be whole and new). The 1-issue epilogue, despite VERY SHITTY art, is really good too.

Worth getting Waid's fifth (last?) volume?

Not at all anticipating Lee-Johns of Superheroes.

As we're talking about this on the other thread...

a) Tell me why I should keep reading the Great Darkness Saga when it's so goddamn confusing and slow

b) GM's Green Lantern comic was the most SPACE FUN thing I've seen from DC in a while

Incidentally, I ordered a copy of Great Darkness Saga based on discussion in the other thread, having not read any of the Giffen-era stuff that everyone raves about.

I bought the five b&w Showcase books as they were released, thinking I might finally have the opportunity to collect and read this stuff from the beginning, but then DC in typical DC fashion decided to start a new line of HCs that leapfrogged over like 30 issues (which, tbf, were previously collected...in Archive editions that are now long out of print and selling for hundreds of dollars). But the discussion here made me decide to get over my ire and push on with whatever I'm able to get my hands on.

I have a definite soft spot for the LSH's sprawling unmanageable mess of a cast and its inherently goofy Silver Age roots and yet oddly I have never read the Great Darkness saga.

the legion is one of the few glaring blind-spots in my dc knowledge - their continuity has been fucked with so much i literally have no idea where to begin

Has there ever been any LOSH incarnation that was totally worthless, abject, boring, etc?

I can't remember anything similar to a "Chuck Austen" era for the Legion.

The New 52–era "Legion Lost" run was awful

you can tell the Adventure run is desperately spotty stuff by random writers who Weisinger hadn't terrorised away, when you compare to how consistent & psychologically curious the Siegel stories are

the Action run is v nothingy, and tbh most of the 70s apart from Levitz' shaky first sesh is hackwork. even Shooter's return was unnecessary, having lost what naive spark made the teenage Jim useful at writing teenage power fantasies.

Tom McCraw run worthless for sure.

Haven't read since then apart from the occasional Levitz/Giffen reunion and skimming early Waid issues in the shop.

Mmm the McCraw run wasn't mindblowing stuff, for sure, but I do remember it fondly. It was the first Legion reeboot, so watching the new continuity unfold and just seeing how they had tinkered with the past (Invisible Kid is alive again! Projectra is a giant snake! The Ferro Lad death is now a big crossover!) was intriguing and fun.

Shooter Mark 2 was unnecessary indeed, but I do have a soft spot for his "not that weird but not quite straight forward either" style of writing, and the art of Manapul made it passable.

I had totally forgotten about that new-52 series, though. Seeing Fabian Nicieza in his wikipedia entry waving that issue really sends shiver down my spine.

Shooter mk 1 was 60s, mk 2 was 70s, 21st century was mk 3

Picked up issue #1 of this. Tons of fragmentary, jokey Bendis dialogue; a storyline that hinges on an artifact from the present-day DCU; and a major plot twist that, surprisingly, hearkens back to the “5YL” era (I won’t spoil it). Guess the issue was fine as an introduction; hard to really evaluate it beyond those bullet-points.

Well, these guys found a lot more to say about the issue than I did... Really good write-up (full of spoilers, fyi).

One other thing I’ll mention is that I feel like the artwork in the first few pages may be an homage to Stuart Immonen’s Legion work (especially since the style sort of changes later); but I’m not versed enough to say that for sure.

I'll take this opportunity to go on record to say that I am NOT a fan of several of the Legionnaire designs. Karate Kid in particular, as he is clearly wearing a (stereo)typical Chinese queue hair style. Please someone tell DC that "karate" is Japanese, not Chinese. If Val is now Chinese, shouldn't he be called Kung Fu Kid?

have we learned nothing from the jackie chan karate kid ffs

Pretty brutal takedown of issue #3 on that blog: http://legionofsuperbloggers.blogspot.com/2020/01/lsh-v8-3.html

tldr; art looked nice though

I've basically come around to the opinion that, aside from his anomalous Avengers work, BMB should basically only write solo books. He is generally good-to-very good when he does that, and he is generally mediocre-to-awful when he writes teams of characters. BMB on LOSH seems...I don't want to say 'nightmarish' but somewhere in that ballpark.

I really dig this old Kevin Nowlan cover; something about the (atypical) way Jo & PG are drawn:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jer7jyt4-4A/XngBcLsCmuI/AAAAAAAAO0c/GYvlWwdJN9k4tBPgJomeG1wWzBk1yv1egCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/Tales_344.jpg

That’s great! So much perspective

It's so uncharacteristically loose for Nowlan, one wonders if he was hanging out with / otherwise influenced by Kyle Baker at the time

I think the face on Ultra Boy reminds me a bit of Chaykin with the big square jaw.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_medium/1/11307/308927-182584-reuben-flagg.jpg

Ultra Boy face is v Chaykin, good call

FYI, assuming the industry doesn't completely collapse before then, there's a Five Years Later omnibus coming out in a few months.

Wow, they're finally collecting it? It took so long, I thought it would never happen (I mean, why now?)

Dunno, their LOSH collections have been frustratingly all over the place (the five b&w Showcase volumes almost but don't quite abut the two recent Superboy & the Legion of Super-Heroes HCs, then a couple years of uncollected material followed by four now-OOP early-'80s trades, etc.).

I just want the entire Levitz-Giffen run

^me too. I have these four:

https://i.imgur.com/Ly7N9mm_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

I also have a few random early-‘80s issues. But most of my single issues are 5YL era, and then a little ways past that (until I gave up).

I’ve never read any Legion tbh. I tried with 5YL a few times but realised it wasn’t going to make sense/mean anything without reading some of the early stuff. Is Darkness Saga a good place to start? (I don’t have patience for the silver age stuff.) I have a version that starts with issue 284

(The one in the photo above actually)

Great Darkness is pretty complex (each issue is dense AF, with multiple interwoven plotlines etc.), but is indeed peak Levitz/Giffen.

Other than a couple issues, most of those 80s Legion is pretty cheap in back issues.

imo Five Years Later is a better place to start than Great Darkness Saga - the latter assumes more knowledge of DC and LSH history and characters - but you're definitely better off starting from #284 than the original GDS collection that kicks in at #290 or so

I disagree with the idea that 5YL is a good entry point into the Legion (and having recently revisited it, I don’t think it’s aged very well); but any entry is better than none, I suppose.

Being the stupid completist that I am, I still haven't made my way through the Showcase phone books yet. I'm guessing the actual literal entry point, while possessing a certain mid-century charm, isn't the ideal entry point.

^^I picked up a copy of the first Showcase volume at a sidewalk sale (my first impromptu/cash purchase in many a pandemic moon). These early Superboy & Supergirl stories, by Otto Binder or Jerry Siegel, are – excuse me – the dumbest fucking stories I’ve ever read.

Looking at some old Legion comics today, I found this cover.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/6/64/Superboy_and_the_Legion_of_Super-Heroes_Vol_1_222.jpg/revision/latest/top-crop/width/360/height/450?cb=20090102193121

haaaaaa.

Does anyone know more about this Australian publisher that reprinted DC (and other) content, but apparently couldn’t use the titles? (Seems like it may be up sic’s alley.)

http://legionofsuperbloggers.blogspot.com/2021/06/the-legion-in-australia.html

was hoping to see MURRAY THE CAT when clicking through but idk anything about their strategies

my guess would be that they generally kept changing titles in order to keep newsagents interested, and in the case of Super-Heroes Album that they thought "Legion" was too fancy a name for sun-addled shirtless sprogs in the seventies to find appealing

These early Superboy & Supergirl stories, by Otto Binder or Jerry Siegel, are – excuse me – the dumbest fucking stories I’ve ever read.

I’m now reading this volume with my kid, and it’s kind of fun… turns out he has the ability to recognize & laugh at the absurdity of these old strips (I’ve never seen him enjoy something “ironically” before). I’m also getting kind of a nerdy thrill at introducing him to the LSH.

https://i.imgur.com/Qt7FUx5_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

Superboy still not giving Lana a tumble

:D

never seen him enjoy something “ironically” before). I’m also getting kind of a nerdy thrill

:D :D

Reading these Legion first appearances, you wouldn’t know it was the beginning of a beloved, decades-long storyline.

Interesting that the only Legionnaire whose real name & backstory have been revealed so far is Thom Kallor (Star Boy) – even the main three are just stock characters in these early issues.

(Though when Supergirl first encounters them, they tell her they’re the “children” of the Legionnaires that Superboy met… I assume this was never mentioned again.)

By the way – my understanding is that the BendisBoot is dunzo? R.I.P. to the Legion once again.

Still making our way thru the early Superboy/Supergirl stories in this Showcase volume… the plotting and dialogue are just so bad (good art, tho). And Otto Binder wrote some of those great sci-fi stories in the ‘50s… IDGI.

The Legionnaires are also such scrubs here. Like real screw-ups. If it weren’t for Pocket Universe Superboy, they’d be up the creek.

Apparently Bendis says they’re coming back, whoopee

Keith Giffen R.I.P.

His final Facebook post:

https://mlpnk72yciwc.i.optimole.com/cqhiHLc.IIZS~2ef73/w:auto/h:auto/q:75/https://bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/IMG_4104.jpeg

... wow

Levitz tribute:

https://cdn.bsky.app/img/feed_thumbnail/plain/did:plc:lmieio72lgit7a5ts43iiyks/bafkreiez22fkucpu56ttzqavdv3gwszhbbhknoximr2wyephyngcvpnoxu@jpeg

That’s so lovely and bittersweet. Lol at “many thankfully never saw print”

Rest In Peace.

Aw, damn.