Aldo reads DC's New 52 (So you don't have to)

I don't get this "Fables is not a character" point..? You think new characters count only if they have a solo title, and titles with multiple protagonists shouldn't be counted, even if said protagonists are new characters?

the one quibble is that I thought the point of Fables is that they are the characters that the original stories happened to.

In some sense, yeah, but more often than not the original stories are said to be twisted versions of what "really" happened.

And yeah, they're still making Savage Dragon and Spawn. In fact, I think Savage Dragon might be the second-longest running (after Cerebus) American comic book by a single author.

No, sorry, I was wrong! I think Usagi Yojimbo beats SD to the second place.

I'm going to disagree on the Sandman - early on (maybe The Doll's House?) Brute & Glob appear and are introduced as being created by Morpheus. While not suggesting Morpheus and Hector Hall are exactly the same character, they are both aspects of whatever it is 'makes' Sandmen i.e. according to Gaiman, Hector Hall was a prior version of Morpheus.

Also you have to bear in mind that Gaiman's original proposal was to revive the Simon & Kirby series but Roy Thomas got priority on some characters for Infinity Inc so it's completely what was in his thoughts.

In terms of non-Big Two - surely Hellboy is the elephant in the room?

I don't get this "Fables is not a character" point..? You think new characters count only if they have a solo title, and titles with multiple protagonists shouldn't be counted, even if said protagonists are new characters?

Yes, I think if we're looking at "the longest-lasting lead character since the 70s", then being an actual lead character is not incidental to the enquiry.

Static also starred in an animated series that lasted for four seasons

crucially, this is not a comic book

I don't get this "Fables is not a character" point..? You think new characters count only if they have a solo title, and titles with multiple protagonists shouldn't be counted, even if said protagonists are new characters?

the point under discussion is "longest-lasting lead character since the 70s." There is no character in Fables called, say, Dave Fables who - say - is the protagonist of the stories.

(xpost)

While not suggesting Morpheus and Hector Hall are exactly the same character, they are both aspects of whatever it is 'makes' Sandmen i.e. according to Gaiman, Hector Hall was a prior version of Morpheus.

Hector Hall is shown as being a completely separate character and a far more minor one in the story than Doctor Destiny, Matthew Cable, J'onn J'onnz or Hector Hall's widow.

Yeah, I think that's a retcon in that they are former servants of Morpheus, but their wacky hijinks while he was away was what we were seeing previously.

Fair enough, it's been years since I read it.

the point under discussion is "longest-lasting lead character since the 70s." There is no character in Fables called, say, Dave Fables who - say - is the protagonist of the stories.

Fair enough, but I didn't take this discussion to be so specific, I thought it was more about the Big Two failing to create new characters with lasting power, regardless of whether they are in a solo or multiple-protagonist book. I mean, The Sandman is pretty much a ensemble book too, even if it was named after one character; Morpheus is a minor/supporting character in three of the longer story arcs and most of the short stories, and the series made Death almost as popular as the Dream.

it was more about the Big Two failing to create new characters with lasting power, regardless of whether they are in a solo or multiple-protagonist book

Amanda Waller

Chas

Tim Drake

Yeah, I think that's a retcon in that they are former servants of Morpheus, but their wacky hijinks while he was away was what we were seeing previously.

Specifically, the retcon was Brute and Glob were Morpheus's former servants, and that they manipulated two of the previous Sandmen (who Morpheus knew nothing about), Garret Sanford and Hector Hall, into thinking they were the rulers of a place called Dream Dimension. When Hector Hall meets Morpheus and says he's "The Sandman", Morpheus starts laughing, implying Hall has nothing to do with the "real" Sandman.

However, what Aldo might've been thinking of was the bit in the first Sandman arc, where it's said Wesley Dodds (the original Golden Age Sandman) has an aspect of Morpheus in him, or something like that (I think this was later confirmed in Sandman Mystery Theatre?). So Wesley Dodds is the only superhero Sandman who's an explicit predecessor (or successor, if we follow DC's internal chronology) to Gaiman's Sandman.

Tim Drake might actually be a good example of a successful new lead character? He did star in his own book for more than 200 issues, though the fact that he's also a legacy character kind muddles the definition of "new".

Oracle kinda was, till recently.

Barbara Gordon was created in 1960s, though. Though I guess you could almost call Oracle a new character, considering how thoroughly Ostrander et al reconstructed her. (And I'd say it's one of the best reconstructions in superhero comics history, especially considering the "Women in Refrigerators" type of ending Moore gave to her previous career.)

Yeah, I was going to suggest Nightwing as well - I get the impression there's even less Batman in his book than in Robin's?

I know I'm going to regret this, but how is Wesley Dodds a successor?

'cos Dream is zillions of years old and Dodds is from 1938

Nightwang feels much less of a break from the previous character than Oracle btw, eg he literally goes upstairs and changes his pants then comes down and says "yo I'm Nightwing now but I still have the same house and girlfriend and team and I'm still yr leader, lets go"

(ok with a tiny pause to say "why is Joseph wearing that uniform", as if gay Arabian disco pirate is a large-scale regulated force)

Hahaha!

I though the start of his book coincided with his move to Bludhaven, the city in Gotham's shadow that is much tougher and more dangerous but had mysteriously never been mentioned in the previous 50 years?

Seriously though, Nightwing's own new costume in that issue is one of the best examples of superhero artists not exactly being on the cutting edge when it comes to sartorial trends. That collar thing looks like it's from 1977, not 1984:

http://www.comicsrecommended.com/images/dc/talesoftheteentitans_044_nightwing.jpg

(xpost)

Also the area above his crotch looks like a pair of eyes doing "confused face"

ARE YOU PEOPLE READY?

Maggie and hopey, duh.

So all the writers are leaving their Green Lanternverse titles; new writers not announced. Shuffling the deck chairs or a chance for a new vision for the rings?

Seems weird to sabotage one of your bestselling comics when everything else is tanking. Or not, because it's DC.

Hmm. You have to remember that none of the GL mythology was rebooted into the New 52 because Geoff Johns couldn't give up his Action Playset. Any new writer with a greater attention span than him will undoubtedly jettison masses of that shit and so it probably makes more sense to get rid of the people that have been writing inside his idiom as well, so clearing the decks and having a proper New 52 reboot makes a lot of sense from one angle.

Me? I'd go back to the beginning of the Silver Age and have Hal vs Qward, especially since GMoz's Action has refocused on anti-universes.

They have kinda been the only really overperforming part of the dcnu. I can't see Green Lantern supporting four books without the hook of Johns' worldbuilding. While I could easily see quite a lot of people writing a best-selling justice league or two. Don't know, their plan might be for more worldbuilding and books in the line (such as aquaman, katana and vibe), but it does seem pretty stupid to bet on so massively a month before they know whether jla and co will work at all. But hey, it's the dcnu.

http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2013/02/the-savaged-hawkman-what-latest-dc-casualty-says-about-new-52/

ultimately, Johns killed off Hawkman in Blackest Night only to resurrect him in the final issue

The Johns boosters in the comments might be ignoring that things like this are what's wrong with DC's output in recent years.

OK, DC have just escalated WTF to new levels by spoilering Batman Incorporated #8 themselves before it's published. They've confirmed that all the rumours that have been circulating are true.

Annoying! But they also spoilered Batman RIP, when it was clear from even a cursory reading that he didn't actually die at the end.

The Johns boosters in the comments might be ignoring that things like this are what's wrong with DC's output in recent years.

wasn't there some other thread where we failed to name a single major character who had stayed dead (from either Marvel or DC universes?) Everybody gets resurrected.. deaths are just a marketing gimmick.

I think they gotta have em come back to maintain copyright anyway! But it is really pathetic when they can't even keep people dead for a year.

Did I miss something and Gwen Stacy came back? I thought that was the only character, well her and Uncle Ben, who were off-limits.

I don't think Gwen Stacy actually came back. Straczynski just violated her corpse.

And she did have a clone walking around for a while

I swear if these fools kill off John Stewart then I am done.

Yeah, and two writers quitting before anything by them on the title is probably worth wtfing about.

It's like they looked at Simon Baz and said "I like the gun but we already have one... WAIT I KNOW WHAT WE CAN DO"

Or maybe the WTF solicits are supposed to be misdirection and the bad editorial and talent haemorrhage is what we're really supposed to be wtfing about, but then again those aren't exactly a new development.

Either way there have been a handful of decent (Flash, Aquaman, Batman & Robin, Action, Demon Knights, Animal Man, Swamp Thing...), to genuinely great (Wonder Woman, I,Vampire, Batman, The Shade, Penguin P&P, Dial H, All Star Western) and there were a few things I wanted to check out in trades but Marvel NOW has produced a lot of great titles and I struggle to justify the amount I spend on this shit in the first place.

Turning my back on DC altogether might not be so painful in the long run.

yeah Marvel is totally kicking DC's ass in terms of putting out stories that are just plain fun to read right now

Apparantly Dan DiDio apologized to the writers at the latest retreat, and promised that editorial wouldn't change a story after it had been aproved. This promise lasted four days.

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/02/15/did-dan-didio-apologise-to-dc-comics-creators/

Apparently, I like Dial H? I think?

That would make sense - you can read and you like pictures, Dial H usually scores highly among people who enjoy those things.

Yeah, I want to check Dial H. But it sells very few copies, so it will probably be canceled soon, and I'll probably wait until then, and read it all at once.

This is quite fun: http://www.newsarama.com/comics/the-q-creators-talk-editorial-conflict.html Rob Liefeld is quite hilarious, especially when he tries to be vague on which editor he is talking about, but then his story is about a hero who is no longer an alien, so it's probably not hard to figure out if it is Grifter or Deathstroke or Hawkman...

They've been working on Trinity War for several years, and then this is the first teaser-image:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/assets/images/articles/1365424785.jpg

What is even going on with half these people? I had to look really hard to find out that Superman isn't trying to kill Green Arrow, but might be trying to kill Green Lantern. And where is Superman supposed to be stainding, if the is hitting the bow from that angle. I still don't know what Batman is doing. But it's nice to see Pandora being so weak, in Flashpoint she seemed like an immensely powerful woman, and it's nice to see that DC still won't allow those kinds of things.