Marvel Comics blabbery

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I really like East of West. It's one of the few comics I'm reading month to month anymore.

earlnash, Saturday, 10 May 2014 14:36 (eleven years ago)

one month passes...

lol 1985

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Br9h7WFCcAEo1fl.jpg

poor Groo :(

Οὖτις, Monday, 7 July 2014 18:50 (eleven years ago)

Groo back issues are hard to come by!

Look at this joke I've recognised, do you recognise it as well? (forksclovetofu), Monday, 7 July 2014 18:51 (eleven years ago)

I dunno if I have any anymore but that was a great book.

Οὖτις, Monday, 7 July 2014 18:59 (eleven years ago)

sales must have turned around at some point cuz it had a pretty long run (120 issues?!). I have fond memories of the storylines with his dog, who was even stupider than he was.

Οὖτις, Monday, 7 July 2014 19:00 (eleven years ago)

yo man, Hama GI Joe was dope can't argue with that
i remember picking up Groo into the late 80s, it went forever

Nhex, Monday, 7 July 2014 19:12 (eleven years ago)

these numbers are from may 85... groo's first marvel issue was march that year.

fit and working again, Monday, 7 July 2014 19:22 (eleven years ago)

ah that explains it

Οὖτις, Monday, 7 July 2014 19:23 (eleven years ago)

and yeah, groo was excellent.

fit and working again, Monday, 7 July 2014 19:23 (eleven years ago)

Looks as if Groo was the second-highest selling Epic title after the flagship anthology. That's not too shabby, really.

It's hard to imagine Marvel making so much of their bread off of adaptated properties nowadays. Everybody but them seems to have cornered that particular market of late.

The She's The Sheriff Mystery Hour (Old Lunch), Monday, 7 July 2014 20:08 (eleven years ago)

Was the New Universe the first time Marvel attempted the alternate, self-contained universe of titles gambit...? Was there any precedent of a similar approach from DC? (DC was pretty explicit about the separate universes, but they didn't have entire titles devoted to alternate universes, did they? At least not until Vertigo?)

Οὖτις, Monday, 7 July 2014 20:34 (eleven years ago)

I think Marvel (copying 2000 AD and other sort of indie lines) was ahead of DC with Epic and OGNS and whatnot

Nhex, Monday, 7 July 2014 20:35 (eleven years ago)

Kirby's Fourth World?

mh, Monday, 7 July 2014 20:36 (eleven years ago)

that included Superman/Jimmy Olsen

Οὖτις, Monday, 7 July 2014 20:40 (eleven years ago)

Epic and OGNS titles weren't related to each other tho. What I mean is something like Ultimates or New Universe, where there was a series of titles that were related to one another, but totally separate from the "regular" continuity.

Οὖτις, Monday, 7 July 2014 20:41 (eleven years ago)

like, DC didn't have a bunch of Earth-2 titles (right?)

Οὖτις, Monday, 7 July 2014 20:42 (eleven years ago)

There was All-Star Squadron and that's about it for Earth-2 ongoings.

EZ Snappin, Monday, 7 July 2014 20:47 (eleven years ago)

It was the first line produced by Marvel Comics utilizing a pre-conceived shared universe concept.

fit and working again, Monday, 7 July 2014 20:49 (eleven years ago)

I have a whole short box of nothing but groo. Can't even get at it rn (lol nyc) but I'm gonna wallow in them again someday.

how will the milf survive? (Jon Lewis), Monday, 7 July 2014 23:04 (eleven years ago)

yeah, groo was awesome

Look at this joke I've recognised, do you recognise it as well? (forksclovetofu), Tuesday, 8 July 2014 05:25 (eleven years ago)

i loved groo as a kid. a bit sad that the collections available on amazon are a tad pricey.

The Littlest Boho (stevie), Tuesday, 8 July 2014 06:29 (eleven years ago)

Those figures are for postal subscriptions only, rather than newstand or comic book store sales

sʌxihɔːl (Ward Fowler), Tuesday, 8 July 2014 07:36 (eleven years ago)

Collections were only ever four issues too iirc, they could have gotten the whole series out if Evanier had switched to fat 12-issue tomes

sales must have turned around at some point

subscription figures aren't necessarily exactly proportionate with newstand and direct sales anyway

i remember picking up Groo into the late 80s, it went forever

it's still going, the last series was in 2010 (and there's a Groo Vs Conan that was due in 2011, but Sergio's illness knocked it off track [and Sakai's family troubles probably aren't helping him speed through it rn])

Looks as if Groo was the second-highest selling Epic title after the flagship anthology. That's not too shabby, really.

can't possibly believe the Heavy Metal knockoff magazine sold more than Elektra

Was the New Universe the first time Marvel attempted the alternate, self-contained universe of titles gambit...? Was there any precedent of a similar approach from DC? (DC was pretty explicit about the separate universes, but they didn't have entire titles devoted to alternate universes, did they? At least not until Vertigo?)

Vertigo wasn't an alternate universe, it was a bunch of DCU and otherwise self-contained books

boney tassel (sic), Tuesday, 8 July 2014 07:39 (eleven years ago)

Essential-style, phonebook Groo volumes wld be a winner, no?

Think Conan v Groo is finally coming out this year.

There was All-Star Squadron and that's about it for Earth-2 ongoings.

Before that there was an All Star Comics, also featuring the Earth-2 heroes, but since 'Flash of Two Worlds' DC have never exactly resisted crossovers between the two universes.

sʌxihɔːl (Ward Fowler), Tuesday, 8 July 2014 07:54 (eleven years ago)

Groo was the first American-style comic I read after a childhood of Tintin and Asterix and The Beano. Anecdotally - it felt like Mad and Groo were much more widely read than the superhero books - maybe a UK thing? There were copies in every newsagent - plus (anecdotally again) it was never just boys who read them.

Chuck_Tatum, Tuesday, 8 July 2014 11:28 (eleven years ago)

Groo was always tough to find in my area (NY), never seemed that popular around here. Probably because of the times (late 80s/early 90s). I was often surprised when I was able to find a copy

Nhex, Tuesday, 8 July 2014 13:48 (eleven years ago)

I think I got into Mad magazine as a kid before most comics but never saw Groo on a newsstand and hardly ever in a comics shop.

mh, Tuesday, 8 July 2014 13:58 (eleven years ago)

Groo was dead easy to find in the UK, but I always suspected we mainly got the leftover comics that hadn't sold in the US

The Littlest Boho (stevie), Tuesday, 8 July 2014 14:02 (eleven years ago)

Nah. For quite a while, Marvel US would swap a 15 cent (or whatever) front cover price plate for a 10p cover price place at the end of a run of 'colour' comics, so the Marvel titles in newsagents etc were produced specifically for the UK market, although certain titles (eg The Avengers) that had British Marvel equivalents were 'non-distributed' (ie you could only get them as imports.)

http://www.comics.org/issue/1057795/cover/4/

By the time that the cover price included both a US and UK price, comics were distributed to UK specialist shops just a couple of days after they went on sale in America, so not 'leftovers' either.

sʌxihɔːl (Ward Fowler), Tuesday, 8 July 2014 14:12 (eleven years ago)

paper is heavy, I would imagine shipping comics overseas was at the bottom of their list of strategies

mh, Tuesday, 8 July 2014 14:13 (eleven years ago)

really? woah, I always imagined when I was reading Marvel obsessively (86-88) that they were imports... thanks for clearing that up, Ward.

The Littlest Boho (stevie), Tuesday, 8 July 2014 14:27 (eleven years ago)

As a kid, I was always fascinated with Marvel comics from the UK whenever some neighborhood kids got their hands on one (usually Action Force, IIRC). Those larger comics with the different paper stock felt like alien artifacts. Even later, non-tabloid stuff like Knights of Pendragon looked so much different from what I was used to (which was largely due to what I think might've been a completely different color process than what was standard in most US Marvel books at the time).

The She's The Sheriff Mystery Hour (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 8 July 2014 14:38 (eleven years ago)

I have mixed feelings on Kieron Gillen's recent Iron Man run, but using a couple Marvel UK characters (Death's Head and Dark Angel) was kind of entertaining

mh, Tuesday, 8 July 2014 14:53 (eleven years ago)

Stevie, I hope you won't mind if I make things a little clearer, still

The small, colour Marvel comics were always technically 'imports', in that they were printed and published in America. When Marvel comics were first imported to the UK, they would have a cents price on them and over that t UK price stamp, normally bearing a T&P insignia, which stood for the British distributors Thorpe and Porter Lrd. The comics were brought over to this country by sea mail.

At some point in the early 1970s, Marvel in America began to print a certain amount of their color comics with a UK pence price, rather than a cents price. This was done at the end of the printing process, a simple matter of swapping a printing plate, but it meant that UK pence copies traditionally have had shittier printing, more colour mis-alignment etc, which may have contributed to your impression that these comics were somehow 'leftovers'. They are generally deemed less collectible than the 'real' cents comics. But they were American Marvels, printed and published in the US and imported here.

Not every American Marvel title was officially distributed in the UK (these comics are known in British collector circles as 'ND' - not distributed - comics.) When the British Marvel titles kicked off in the 1970s, reprinting the American comics in larger size, black and white (or two colour) weekly editions, lots of the series featured in these UK Marvel titles - Spider-Man, Hulk, Avengers etc - were removed from UK distribution, so as not to distract from the UK sales, or confuse readers with stories from vastly different time periods. The only way for a UK reader to acquire these ND comics would be to subscribe, visit America, order them via a mail order dealer either at home or in America, or buy them from one a dedicated comic book store, like Dark They Were and Golden Eyed in London. Distribution of the Marvel Comics with British prices was always extremely patchy, but there's no evidence that any particular titles were 'dumped' on the UK market.

Again, at some point in the 1980s, Marvel began to print only one version of their American colour comics, with both an American and British (and Canadian) price on the front. These titles would be imported in large quantities by air to UK comic shops, typically going on sale just a couple of days after they went on sale in America. Or you could wait a month or so and buy pretty much every Marvel or DC as a slightly cheaper (cover) price, sea-freighted and officially distributed to newsagents and even comic shops.

Looking at a gallery of Groo covers, it seems that the first one with a joint US/UK price was issue 16, cover dated June 1986:

http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/groo-the-wanderer/16-1.jpg

sʌxihɔːl (Ward Fowler), Tuesday, 8 July 2014 20:18 (eleven years ago)

Thanks for that, Ward. I could read ultra-granular comics minutia like that all day long.

The She's The Sheriff Mystery Hour (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 8 July 2014 20:38 (eleven years ago)

Seconded. And I'm pretty sure I had that Groo!

The Littlest Boho (stevie), Tuesday, 8 July 2014 21:17 (eleven years ago)

Really interesting! I just finished the Sean Howe so am definitely in minutia mode. Follow-up question: when did DC/Marvel stuff start disappearing from UK newsagents? I stopped buying (for the first time) round Death of Superman time - I think they were still on the shelves then.

Chuck_Tatum, Tuesday, 8 July 2014 22:05 (eleven years ago)

Just noticed by a friend on Twitter and reposted to Facebook:

"Disney owns marvel.
Marvel owns Thor.
Thor is the son of a king.
Thor is now female.
Thor is now a Disney princess."

Star Gentle Uterus (DJP), Friday, 18 July 2014 17:27 (ten years ago)

it goes all the way to the top mannnnnnnn

Look at this joke I've recognised, do you recognise it as well? (forksclovetofu), Friday, 18 July 2014 18:08 (ten years ago)

Good idea I guess then

Chuck_Tatum, Sunday, 20 July 2014 22:34 (ten years ago)

Marvel Unlimited is doing a month for $0.99 during Comic-Con, I'll get in on this
http://marvel.com/mu

Nhex, Thursday, 24 July 2014 14:55 (ten years ago)

No ALL-NEW DOOP available, what a waste.

Nhex, Friday, 25 July 2014 19:06 (ten years ago)

If only for the sake of people that might read the title and have no context for it whatsoever, I love that there's a comic called All-New Doop.

I'll probably eventually get on the Marvel Unlimited train, but not until it gets a helluva lot closer to actually being Unlimited. For the time being, I'm content to stupidly spend all of my money in the futile attempt of getting physical copies of everything I want.

Dr. Diapers (Old Lunch), Friday, 25 July 2014 19:17 (ten years ago)

reminds me, I need to catch up on All-New Doop, I'm a bit behind

mh, Friday, 25 July 2014 19:28 (ten years ago)

Read some older Dark Wolverine issues. Man, it's infuriating - so many crossovers, every issue continues directly into another series, and there's no way to just go to the correct book without hunting it down. Netflix this ain't.

Nhex, Friday, 25 July 2014 19:46 (ten years ago)

I haven't used the service at all, but if Marvel's oft-nonsensical methodology with respect to physical collections is any kind of a barometer, I can only imagine that reading the more recent hyperinterconnected stuff is a total nightmare.

Self-Satisfaction Guaranteed (Old Lunch), Friday, 25 July 2014 20:05 (ten years ago)

How is the new Nightcrawler run from Chris Claremont?

jamiesummerz, Friday, 8 August 2014 14:58 (ten years ago)

I would love to give him the benefit of the doubt given that he is 90% of the reason why I read comic books today but, after the 90s, I'll be damned if I'm ever reading another new Claremont book.

Star Gentle Uterus (DJP), Friday, 8 August 2014 15:15 (ten years ago)

The new Nightcrawler is readable. It's not good by any means, but compared to DC, readable counts as a win.

EZ Snappin, Friday, 8 August 2014 15:53 (ten years ago)

what, you don't like reading captions with paragraphs of exposition and character description draped over soap operas? xp

mh, Friday, 8 August 2014 15:53 (ten years ago)

https://i.imgur.com/LOYDFzn.jpg

Ward Fowler, Wednesday, 7 February 2024 17:31 (one year ago)

How will you know that some real shit is going down if Betsy isn’t talking about the focused totality of her psychic powers?

the new drip king (DJP), Wednesday, 7 February 2024 17:32 (one year ago)

LOL at Foggy already scheming about Karen.

immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Wednesday, 7 February 2024 17:34 (one year ago)

xp lmao

ɥɯ ︵ (°□°) (mh), Wednesday, 7 February 2024 17:56 (one year ago)

Stan did have a flair for titles.

immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Wednesday, 7 February 2024 17:59 (one year ago)

I may be alone in this but I think Claremont and Ann Nocenti are two of the better over-writers in comics. They can be purple and weird but they're very readable. Gerber, on the other hand...

Meanwhile I'm also rereading Milligan's Shade and some of those Vertigo titles are just as bad as Marvel.

Chuck_Tatum, Friday, 9 February 2024 13:02 (one year ago)

... how would you be alone in liking Claremont in Nocenti, they're fairly beloved

Nhex, Friday, 9 February 2024 16:53 (one year ago)

I mean, it's a cliche that they're both a bit prolix. But I don't really see that - I think they're some of comics better sentence writers, i.e. wordy but easy to read. So often, reading comics feels like wading through sludge, and I don't get that with them.

Chuck_Tatum, Tuesday, 13 February 2024 10:34 (one year ago)

I think it's relative. Compared to Alan Moore or some later writers, maybe they read as corny. But compared to the writing in most of the mainstream comics at the time they were on another level. Definitely soapy and wordy, but they helped bring more nuanced emotions into superhero books.

Cow_Art, Tuesday, 13 February 2024 11:32 (one year ago)

Well Nocenti is really a post-Claremont writer - she’s at the very tail end of the ‘overwriting’ era, a Shooter writer (whereas Claremont is very much a Roy Thomas writer).

Steve Gerber a million times better than either of them, of course.

Ward Fowler, Tuesday, 13 February 2024 11:49 (one year ago)

one year passes...

I've ragged on Shooter for 45+ years for sanding down all the rough edges that made Marvel comics interesting in the 70s

― WmC, Tuesday, July 1, 2025 3:09 AM (sixteen hours ago)

Can you elaborate on this in the Comics board?

― Robert Adam Gilmour, Tuesday, July 1, 2025 1:24 PM (twenty-two minutes ago)

Sure, got some stuff to do but later. The short version is this:

Dreaded Deadline Doom notwithstanding, I loved the auteur years between Stan and Shooter as E-I-C. Shooter's ascension = the day the music died.
― Malibu Stasi (WilliamC), Saturday, September 6, 2014 6:18 PM (ten years ago)

WmC, Tuesday, 1 July 2025 19:00 (one week ago)

A lot of stuff in that Sean Howe book about the weirdness of the 70's, Jim Starlin, Steve Gerber and so on.

a ZX spectrum is haunting Europe (Daniel_Rf), Tuesday, 1 July 2025 19:05 (one week ago)

Agreed, Howe's book is great.

WmC, Tuesday, 1 July 2025 19:08 (one week ago)

I must have read all the worst Marvel Comics of the 70s because I'm frequently perplexed by the acclaim for that era.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Tuesday, 1 July 2025 21:25 (one week ago)

I guess all I can do is mention my favorites and hope you haven't read them yet.
Everything Steve Englehart wrote from 1972-1976
Steve Gerber's Howard the Duck, Man-Thing and Defenders
Don McGregor & Billy Graham's Black Panther run in Jungle Action
McGregor/Craig Russell on Killraven in Amazing Adventures
Jim Starlin's Captain Marvel and Warlock runs
Doug Moench & Paul Gulacy on Master of Kung Fu
to a lesser degree, Rich Buckler's Deathlok series, which had some strong visuals though it was a storytelling mess
The b&w non-code horror and kung-fu magazines

WmC, Tuesday, 1 July 2025 23:32 (one week ago)

Would add:
Tomb of Dracula by Wolfman and Colan (and Tom Palmer)
Conan by Thomas and Smith
Kirby's return, especially 2001, Captain America, Eternals

But over and above all the 'good' comics, 70s Marvels as a whole just have a fantastic VIBE, which you probably had to experience at the time to fully appreciate. Also, whether by accident or design, Roy Thomas and subsequent editors-in-chief assembled a fantastic group of creators who all offered something different - Gerber was a very different writer from Englehart, who was different to McGregor, who was different to Moench etc. And you had that moment when 'veteran' artists like Sal Buscema and Jim Mooney found themselves working on more stimulating scripts from younger writers and really raised their game, which was quite inspiring to see (if Vince Colletta didn't ruin their pencils).

I would say that by the time of Shooter's elevation to EIC, that 70s vibe and cohort had pretty much gone from the comics anyway, and people like Roy Thomas had got rather too comfortable as a Writer-Editor with nobody to really push them creatively. And again, whether by accident or design, there were still good Marvel Comics under Shooter's watch - Miller's Daredevil, Simonson's Thor, Claremont and Byrne's X-Men - that still had a personality and a style.

Ward Fowler, Wednesday, 2 July 2025 08:11 (one week ago)

I've read a little bit of some of them. I have all that Gene Colan in black and white Essentials but couldn't stick with the story. I'm a big fan of the cosmic side of Marvel (at least from a visual standpoint) and a lot of that was happening in the 70s.

Once again: there are stacks of Marvel stuff I would buy just for the artwork if they would do good scans and were affordable. The Taschen collections look wonderful but they are super expensive and released at a snails pace.
https://www.taschen.com/en/collection/marvel-comics-library/

Is there any links to scans of Marvel Comics Presents 175? It goes for stupid money now, I probably could have had it for buttons when I was a teenager.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, 2 July 2025 16:07 (one week ago)

https://readallcomics.com/marvel-comics-presents-v1-175/

WmC, Wednesday, 2 July 2025 16:11 (one week ago)

Thanks very much, I thought that site was gone.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, 2 July 2025 16:14 (one week ago)

I did too, but I checked a few weeks later and there it was.

WmC, Wednesday, 2 July 2025 16:35 (one week ago)

I met him at NYCC two years ago, and he was REALLY fun to talk to… and I will say that my favorite work he ever did were capsule character sketches of every member of the Legion of Super Heroes, which centered around important details like which male Legionnaire is hung like a donkey and which female Legionnaire is the most wanton slut…

in 2011, he posted a lot of very nifty insider-y if also self-serving shit, like this

http://jimshooter.com/2011/06/rooting-out-corruption-at-marvel-part_14.html/

I'm pretty sure Shooter must have been behind what otherwise appears to be a particularly unhinged defense of his record

https://rsmwriter.blogspot.com/2016/06/jim-shooter-second-opinion.html

veronica moser, Thursday, 3 July 2025 15:38 (one week ago)

I don't know that when he became EIC it went totally to shite, as the first part has some of the most iconic Marvel comics. The thing he did was get the comics out, it's amazing how small a company and kind of ramshackle Marvel really was considering the entertainment behemoth is now.

Marvel Two In One was one of the titles of the era that got me hooked on comics. The Thing was so awesome back in those days, easily one of Marvel's most popular characters. Gerber did some of the early issues and I think Englehart maybe too. I was more into the later ones when Byrne, Perez, a really young Mark Gruenwald and others was doing the book. They picked up Deathlok and the Project Pegasus story line blew my mind as like an 8 year old. The book was always a good read and really Byrne's The Thing series was a good read too I remember.

earlnash, Thursday, 3 July 2025 23:35 (one week ago)

I think part of my negative perception about 70s Marvel is that it might be the time when the house style seemed most restrictive? And a strong feeling of writers not knowing what to do with some of the older characters.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Friday, 4 July 2025 14:10 (six days ago)

Starting to wonder if Stan Goldberg's coloring choices are actually a bigger part of Marvel's appeal than I had seriously considered before. But I find it hard to imagine the pencillers weren't getting a say in the colors of the costumes a lot of the time. Ditko was displeased when Spiderman's blue parts started getting too purple.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Friday, 4 July 2025 14:17 (six days ago)

It taken me a bit too long to start thinking in color and I think a lot of comics fans are like that (partially explains DC and Marvel's hideous reprint recoloring jobs going on for decades) but now I see how much of Marvel's edge over DC is in the costume color sensibility, and so many of the toys that were great in the early 90s had great color combinations.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Friday, 4 July 2025 14:21 (six days ago)

And a strong feeling of writers not knowing what to do with some of the older characters.

Yeah, the legacy characters are def not what you go to 70's Marvel for - it's all the weirdness and Cormanesque attempts to cash in on various trends.

a ZX spectrum is haunting Europe (Daniel_Rf), Friday, 4 July 2025 14:30 (six days ago)

I dunno - to me the real creative nadir at Marvel comes when Kirby has left for DC but Stan Lee is still notionally 'writing' the big characters, but in reality leaning heavily on artists like John Buscema, John Romita and Gene Colan, none of whom were any kind of match for Kirby or Ditko's Marvel Method plotting skills. They're just aimless, empty comics, hopelessly lost with the counterculture and the underground while trying to be 'relevant', and most of the titles only revive when the next generation take over, specifically Englehart/Buscema on Captain America and Gerry Conway/Ross Andru on Spider-Man.

But yes, I agree about the 'weirdness and Cormanesque attempts to cash in on various trends' being a big part of the appeal, the vibe. I've been reading some of the early 70s 'horror' titles - Ghost Rider, Son of Satan, The Living Mummy - and it's amazing how drenched in the occult some of these Comics Code approved books are.

Ward Fowler, Friday, 4 July 2025 15:05 (six days ago)

I don't know - and am not sure anybody living now knows - who exactly coloured what on pre-colouring credits Marvel Comics. Yes, Stan Goldberg was key, but George Roussos and Marie Severin were also important. And Sol Brodsky, who was Stan's go-to production guy until the early 70s, knew an awful lot about repro. The printing/colour on American Marvel Comics seemed to reach a peak in the early 70s, again - compare a comic from 1972 with one from 1979 and the decline in print quality is absolutely shocking. In the mid 1970s both Marvel and DC switched from metal to paper printing plates and the comics looked like shit, muddy, ugly shit, from then on. I agree that some of the computer recolouring on the old stuff is pretty terrible but quite often the original printing is just as much of a travesty of the artwork.

Ward Fowler, Friday, 4 July 2025 15:15 (six days ago)

xp see also Mike Ploog on Monster of Frankenstein and Werewolf by Night

Brad C., Friday, 4 July 2025 15:18 (six days ago)

Mike Ploog on Werewolf by Night succeeded by Don Perlin and Vince Colletta has to be one of the biggest drops in artwork quality of all time.

Ward Fowler, Friday, 4 July 2025 15:27 (six days ago)

to me the real creative nadir at Marvel comes when Kirby has left for DC but Stan Lee is still notionally 'writing' the big characters, but in reality leaning heavily on artists like John Buscema, John Romita and Gene Colan, none of whom were any kind of match for Kirby or Ditko's Marvel Method plotting skills. They're just aimless, empty comics, hopelessly lost

― Ward Fowler, Friday, July 4, 2025 4:05 PM (yesterday)

This sounds about right to me, but I think I read the first 20 issues or so of Spectacular Spiderman (mid70s) and there was just nothing happening, but randomly choosing an issue of any legacy title would probably give you this kind of crap where there is no sense of inspiration or direction.

Steve Englehart has a good run on Silver Surfer?

Robert Adam Gilmour, Saturday, 5 July 2025 18:10 (five days ago)

there was just nothing happening

Lee often talked about the 'illusion of change', where something dramatic happens - The Thing quits the FF - but is reset six issues later. I think after the death of Gwen Stacey, Lee/Marvel were extremely wary of making similar seismic changes to their best-selling titles, Spider-Man in particular. Hence the stasis, the endless recycling.

I don't particularly rate anything Englehart wrote after about 1979 tbh. There's a lot of horrendous Ron Lim art on those Surfers.

Ward Fowler, Saturday, 5 July 2025 18:46 (five days ago)

I believe some other higher ups (maybe even Shooter?) actually kept that Illusion Of Change advice for writers and editors.

What went wrong with Englehart after the 70s?

Robert Adam Gilmour, Saturday, 5 July 2025 20:37 (five days ago)

I haven't read enough of either to compare, but he definitively quit comics and gave angry exit interviews, so certainly would have had a different perspective on returning.

Nancy Makes Posts (sic), Sunday, 6 July 2025 02:16 (four days ago)


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