Marvel Comics blabbery

I have a whole short box of nothing but groo. Can't even get at it rn (lol nyc) but I'm gonna wallow in them again someday.

yeah, groo was awesome

i loved groo as a kid. a bit sad that the collections available on amazon are a tad pricey.

Those figures are for postal subscriptions only, rather than newstand or comic book store sales

Collections were only ever four issues too iirc, they could have gotten the whole series out if Evanier had switched to fat 12-issue tomes

sales must have turned around at some point

subscription figures aren't necessarily exactly proportionate with newstand and direct sales anyway

i remember picking up Groo into the late 80s, it went forever

it's still going, the last series was in 2010 (and there's a Groo Vs Conan that was due in 2011, but Sergio's illness knocked it off track [and Sakai's family troubles probably aren't helping him speed through it rn])

Looks as if Groo was the second-highest selling Epic title after the flagship anthology. That's not too shabby, really.

can't possibly believe the Heavy Metal knockoff magazine sold more than Elektra

Was the New Universe the first time Marvel attempted the alternate, self-contained universe of titles gambit...? Was there any precedent of a similar approach from DC? (DC was pretty explicit about the separate universes, but they didn't have entire titles devoted to alternate universes, did they? At least not until Vertigo?)

Vertigo wasn't an alternate universe, it was a bunch of DCU and otherwise self-contained books

Essential-style, phonebook Groo volumes wld be a winner, no?

Think Conan v Groo is finally coming out this year.

There was All-Star Squadron and that's about it for Earth-2 ongoings.

Before that there was an All Star Comics, also featuring the Earth-2 heroes, but since 'Flash of Two Worlds' DC have never exactly resisted crossovers between the two universes.

Groo was the first American-style comic I read after a childhood of Tintin and Asterix and The Beano. Anecdotally - it felt like Mad and Groo were much more widely read than the superhero books - maybe a UK thing? There were copies in every newsagent - plus (anecdotally again) it was never just boys who read them.

Groo was always tough to find in my area (NY), never seemed that popular around here. Probably because of the times (late 80s/early 90s). I was often surprised when I was able to find a copy

I think I got into Mad magazine as a kid before most comics but never saw Groo on a newsstand and hardly ever in a comics shop.

Groo was dead easy to find in the UK, but I always suspected we mainly got the leftover comics that hadn't sold in the US

Nah. For quite a while, Marvel US would swap a 15 cent (or whatever) front cover price plate for a 10p cover price place at the end of a run of 'colour' comics, so the Marvel titles in newsagents etc were produced specifically for the UK market, although certain titles (eg The Avengers) that had British Marvel equivalents were 'non-distributed' (ie you could only get them as imports.)

http://www.comics.org/issue/1057795/cover/4/

By the time that the cover price included both a US and UK price, comics were distributed to UK specialist shops just a couple of days after they went on sale in America, so not 'leftovers' either.

paper is heavy, I would imagine shipping comics overseas was at the bottom of their list of strategies

really? woah, I always imagined when I was reading Marvel obsessively (86-88) that they were imports... thanks for clearing that up, Ward.

As a kid, I was always fascinated with Marvel comics from the UK whenever some neighborhood kids got their hands on one (usually Action Force, IIRC). Those larger comics with the different paper stock felt like alien artifacts. Even later, non-tabloid stuff like Knights of Pendragon looked so much different from what I was used to (which was largely due to what I think might've been a completely different color process than what was standard in most US Marvel books at the time).

I have mixed feelings on Kieron Gillen's recent Iron Man run, but using a couple Marvel UK characters (Death's Head and Dark Angel) was kind of entertaining

Stevie, I hope you won't mind if I make things a little clearer, still

The small, colour Marvel comics were always technically 'imports', in that they were printed and published in America. When Marvel comics were first imported to the UK, they would have a cents price on them and over that t UK price stamp, normally bearing a T&P insignia, which stood for the British distributors Thorpe and Porter Lrd. The comics were brought over to this country by sea mail.

At some point in the early 1970s, Marvel in America began to print a certain amount of their color comics with a UK pence price, rather than a cents price. This was done at the end of the printing process, a simple matter of swapping a printing plate, but it meant that UK pence copies traditionally have had shittier printing, more colour mis-alignment etc, which may have contributed to your impression that these comics were somehow 'leftovers'. They are generally deemed less collectible than the 'real' cents comics. But they were American Marvels, printed and published in the US and imported here.

Not every American Marvel title was officially distributed in the UK (these comics are known in British collector circles as 'ND' - not distributed - comics.) When the British Marvel titles kicked off in the 1970s, reprinting the American comics in larger size, black and white (or two colour) weekly editions, lots of the series featured in these UK Marvel titles - Spider-Man, Hulk, Avengers etc - were removed from UK distribution, so as not to distract from the UK sales, or confuse readers with stories from vastly different time periods. The only way for a UK reader to acquire these ND comics would be to subscribe, visit America, order them via a mail order dealer either at home or in America, or buy them from one a dedicated comic book store, like Dark They Were and Golden Eyed in London. Distribution of the Marvel Comics with British prices was always extremely patchy, but there's no evidence that any particular titles were 'dumped' on the UK market.

Again, at some point in the 1980s, Marvel began to print only one version of their American colour comics, with both an American and British (and Canadian) price on the front. These titles would be imported in large quantities by air to UK comic shops, typically going on sale just a couple of days after they went on sale in America. Or you could wait a month or so and buy pretty much every Marvel or DC as a slightly cheaper (cover) price, sea-freighted and officially distributed to newsagents and even comic shops.

Looking at a gallery of Groo covers, it seems that the first one with a joint US/UK price was issue 16, cover dated June 1986:

http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/groo-the-wanderer/16-1.jpg

Thanks for that, Ward. I could read ultra-granular comics minutia like that all day long.

Seconded. And I'm pretty sure I had that Groo!

Really interesting! I just finished the Sean Howe so am definitely in minutia mode. Follow-up question: when did DC/Marvel stuff start disappearing from UK newsagents? I stopped buying (for the first time) round Death of Superman time - I think they were still on the shelves then.

Just noticed by a friend on Twitter and reposted to Facebook:

"Disney owns marvel.
Marvel owns Thor.
Thor is the son of a king.
Thor is now female.
Thor is now a Disney princess."

it goes all the way to the top mannnnnnnn

Good idea I guess then

Marvel Unlimited is doing a month for $0.99 during Comic-Con, I'll get in on this
http://marvel.com/mu

No ALL-NEW DOOP available, what a waste.

If only for the sake of people that might read the title and have no context for it whatsoever, I love that there's a comic called All-New Doop.

I'll probably eventually get on the Marvel Unlimited train, but not until it gets a helluva lot closer to actually being Unlimited. For the time being, I'm content to stupidly spend all of my money in the futile attempt of getting physical copies of everything I want.

reminds me, I need to catch up on All-New Doop, I'm a bit behind

Read some older Dark Wolverine issues. Man, it's infuriating - so many crossovers, every issue continues directly into another series, and there's no way to just go to the correct book without hunting it down. Netflix this ain't.

I haven't used the service at all, but if Marvel's oft-nonsensical methodology with respect to physical collections is any kind of a barometer, I can only imagine that reading the more recent hyperinterconnected stuff is a total nightmare.

How is the new Nightcrawler run from Chris Claremont?

I would love to give him the benefit of the doubt given that he is 90% of the reason why I read comic books today but, after the 90s, I'll be damned if I'm ever reading another new Claremont book.

The new Nightcrawler is readable. It's not good by any means, but compared to DC, readable counts as a win.

what, you don't like reading captions with paragraphs of exposition and character description draped over soap operas? xp

djp otm

I thought Claremont came across quite menschy in the Howe book so I'll give him a shot

I haven't read comics for years, Marvel or otherwise, but I came across the Howe book at the library and have been blowing through it over the past few days. I just finished the Shooter years- which were the years I in which I discovered Marvel comics. Boy he did not come across well. I was cringing imagining working for him as depicted in his later tenure.

Dreaded Deadline Doom notwithstanding, I loved the auteur years between Stan and Shooter as E-I-C. Shooter's ascension = the day the music died.

It's certainly seeming that way to me. The Gerber/Englehart/Starlin stuff sounds great - I've not seen much of it other than the odd issue or reference here or there. I'm thinking of getting a Marvel Unlimited subscription in the hopes that some of that material is represented.

I really dug the Howe book too! So many pros are pissed about it.

I haven't read these yet, but I thought I'd pass them on, two-part Shooter defense:
http://www.hoodedutilitarian.com/2013/01/jim-shooter-a-second-opinion-part-one-the-best-job-he-can/
http://www.hoodedutilitarian.com/2013/10/jim-shooter-a-second-opinion-part-two-romper-room-on-crystal-meth-installment-1/

omg lolz @ that Ghost Rider + Jesus storyline, never heard of that before

no kidding! if your main gripe about Jim Shooter is that he didn't want to publish your story where Jesus helps Ghost Rider, then you really have no ammo whatsoever, really

Those Shooter defense articles have been linked to here before - they're still mostly bullshit. Creators had other, bigger gripes abt Shooter than that he wouldn't publish their Jesus/Ghost Rider story (but i mean, why not - this is a company that published Son of Satan, after all.)

I love the Sean Howe bk, gobbled it up, but I think there are other histories of Marvel and American comics still to be told - it's not, by any means, definitive.

yeah idk if Shooter was in the right there (it's conceivable) I just find the whole prospect v v 70s and v v funny

If I were to do a radio-button poll of Marvel 70s "auteur" series, what should I include?

Starlin's Warlock
Moench/Gulacy Master of Kung Fu
McGregor/Graham Black Panther
McGregor/Russell Killraven
Wolfman/Colan Dracula
Wolfman/Perlin Werewolf by Night
Rich Buckler Deathlok
Steve Gerber, Howard the Duck
Gerber, Man-Thing

What else would fit in there? Any of the superhero titles?

surely claremont's xmen, no?

Gerber's Defenders is the only obvious omission. Maybe Starlin's Captain Marvel. Claremont might be outside the purview of that particular endeavor.

xpost

Is Wolfman's Werewolf by Night run really thought of as 'auteur' comics? Moreso than the Gerry Conway issues, or the Doug Moench issues?

Would also include

Englehart/Brunner/Colan's Doctor Strange
Englehart/Starlin's Captain Marvel
Gerber's Defenders
Gerber/Skrenes' Omega the Unknown
McGregor's Power Man

the Claremont/Cockrum issues of X-Men are sort've the Marvel Comics equivalent of Jaws - recognisably the work of 70s auteurs, but also a harbinger of a new, less personally expressive/more commercially-minded way of creating comics

well put

Is Wolfman's Werewolf by Night run really thought of as 'auteur' comics? Moreso than the Gerry Conway issues, or the Doug Moench issues?

My error on that one -- I meant to type Moench instead of Wolfman. The only issues I ever read were Moench/Perlin.

xp, yes, that's a great description of the X-Men revival

Isn't Englehart's run on Cap A supposed to be pretty distinctive? I still need to order that essentials volume...

Thanks very much, I thought that site was gone.

I did too, but I checked a few weeks later and there it was.

I met him at NYCC two years ago, and he was REALLY fun to talk to… and I will say that my favorite work he ever did were capsule character sketches of every member of the Legion of Super Heroes, which centered around important details like which male Legionnaire is hung like a donkey and which female Legionnaire is the most wanton slut…

in 2011, he posted a lot of very nifty insider-y if also self-serving shit, like this

http://jimshooter.com/2011/06/rooting-out-corruption-at-marvel-part_14.html/

I'm pretty sure Shooter must have been behind what otherwise appears to be a particularly unhinged defense of his record

https://rsmwriter.blogspot.com/2016/06/jim-shooter-second-opinion.html

I don't know that when he became EIC it went totally to shite, as the first part has some of the most iconic Marvel comics. The thing he did was get the comics out, it's amazing how small a company and kind of ramshackle Marvel really was considering the entertainment behemoth is now.

Marvel Two In One was one of the titles of the era that got me hooked on comics. The Thing was so awesome back in those days, easily one of Marvel's most popular characters. Gerber did some of the early issues and I think Englehart maybe too. I was more into the later ones when Byrne, Perez, a really young Mark Gruenwald and others was doing the book. They picked up Deathlok and the Project Pegasus story line blew my mind as like an 8 year old. The book was always a good read and really Byrne's The Thing series was a good read too I remember.

I think part of my negative perception about 70s Marvel is that it might be the time when the house style seemed most restrictive? And a strong feeling of writers not knowing what to do with some of the older characters.

Starting to wonder if Stan Goldberg's coloring choices are actually a bigger part of Marvel's appeal than I had seriously considered before. But I find it hard to imagine the pencillers weren't getting a say in the colors of the costumes a lot of the time. Ditko was displeased when Spiderman's blue parts started getting too purple.

It taken me a bit too long to start thinking in color and I think a lot of comics fans are like that (partially explains DC and Marvel's hideous reprint recoloring jobs going on for decades) but now I see how much of Marvel's edge over DC is in the costume color sensibility, and so many of the toys that were great in the early 90s had great color combinations.

And a strong feeling of writers not knowing what to do with some of the older characters.

Yeah, the legacy characters are def not what you go to 70's Marvel for - it's all the weirdness and Cormanesque attempts to cash in on various trends.

I dunno - to me the real creative nadir at Marvel comes when Kirby has left for DC but Stan Lee is still notionally 'writing' the big characters, but in reality leaning heavily on artists like John Buscema, John Romita and Gene Colan, none of whom were any kind of match for Kirby or Ditko's Marvel Method plotting skills. They're just aimless, empty comics, hopelessly lost with the counterculture and the underground while trying to be 'relevant', and most of the titles only revive when the next generation take over, specifically Englehart/Buscema on Captain America and Gerry Conway/Ross Andru on Spider-Man.

But yes, I agree about the 'weirdness and Cormanesque attempts to cash in on various trends' being a big part of the appeal, the vibe. I've been reading some of the early 70s 'horror' titles - Ghost Rider, Son of Satan, The Living Mummy - and it's amazing how drenched in the occult some of these Comics Code approved books are.

I don't know - and am not sure anybody living now knows - who exactly coloured what on pre-colouring credits Marvel Comics. Yes, Stan Goldberg was key, but George Roussos and Marie Severin were also important. And Sol Brodsky, who was Stan's go-to production guy until the early 70s, knew an awful lot about repro. The printing/colour on American Marvel Comics seemed to reach a peak in the early 70s, again - compare a comic from 1972 with one from 1979 and the decline in print quality is absolutely shocking. In the mid 1970s both Marvel and DC switched from metal to paper printing plates and the comics looked like shit, muddy, ugly shit, from then on. I agree that some of the computer recolouring on the old stuff is pretty terrible but quite often the original printing is just as much of a travesty of the artwork.

xp see also Mike Ploog on Monster of Frankenstein and Werewolf by Night

Mike Ploog on Werewolf by Night succeeded by Don Perlin and Vince Colletta has to be one of the biggest drops in artwork quality of all time.

to me the real creative nadir at Marvel comes when Kirby has left for DC but Stan Lee is still notionally 'writing' the big characters, but in reality leaning heavily on artists like John Buscema, John Romita and Gene Colan, none of whom were any kind of match for Kirby or Ditko's Marvel Method plotting skills. They're just aimless, empty comics, hopelessly lost

― Ward Fowler, Friday, July 4, 2025 4:05 PM (yesterday)

This sounds about right to me, but I think I read the first 20 issues or so of Spectacular Spiderman (mid70s) and there was just nothing happening, but randomly choosing an issue of any legacy title would probably give you this kind of crap where there is no sense of inspiration or direction.

Steve Englehart has a good run on Silver Surfer?

there was just nothing happening

Lee often talked about the 'illusion of change', where something dramatic happens - The Thing quits the FF - but is reset six issues later. I think after the death of Gwen Stacey, Lee/Marvel were extremely wary of making similar seismic changes to their best-selling titles, Spider-Man in particular. Hence the stasis, the endless recycling.

I don't particularly rate anything Englehart wrote after about 1979 tbh. There's a lot of horrendous Ron Lim art on those Surfers.

I believe some other higher ups (maybe even Shooter?) actually kept that Illusion Of Change advice for writers and editors.

What went wrong with Englehart after the 70s?

I haven't read enough of either to compare, but he definitively quit comics and gave angry exit interviews, so certainly would have had a different perspective on returning.