TS: Beto or Xaime?

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

I can't make me choose!

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 02:59 (twenty years ago)

i pick xaime cos i like his art better. both are equally great writers, just about.

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 04:55 (twenty years ago)

xaime. cos i was in love with maggot.

(funnily enough rifling through my shit i found an old brubaker called purgatory usa which is SO in thrall of beto it ain't funny)

― mullygrubbr (bulbs), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 06:18 (twenty years ago)

Def. Xaime because I love all the Maggie and Hopey stuff and his art is a little more sophisticated. Beto's full of crunchy goodness, too.

― ng-unit, Wednesday, 5 October 2005 11:52 (twenty years ago)

Luba vs Maggie?

Probably Beto. I like the roughness to his art, the often beautiful crudity of the images [not = to crudity of technique], particularly.

Can we make this a thread where we pick our favourites?

― steviespitfire (steviespitfire), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 12:27 (twenty years ago)

If anybody picked one of them without qualification I would angrily defend the other one. I love 'em both SO MUCH.

― Douglas (Douglas), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 15:21 (twenty years ago)

Beto. While I think lately they've both fallen a bit into a soap opera-y kind of story telling, I think Beto is better at telling complete narratives, stories that start and end, even within the larger frameworks they both work in. Poison River especially. Xaime's stories seem to work either as the very short slice-of-life stuff in a single issue, or taking the entire thing as a whole. Also, the short story stuff Beto was doing during the last few issues of the magazine sized L+R and during the New Love series really endeared me to him, picking up all these different threads of underground "comix", with healthy Jim Woodring meets R. Crumb weirdness going on. Stuff like "Heroin" I find just amazing.

I need to read much of it all again in order, but I really felt like Xaime lost some sort of thread...but I think Beto in his own way is doing the same thing now, esp. when there were all those different books...L+R, Luba etc.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 15:30 (twenty years ago)

I used to hang out with a latino girl who was into the Dead C and familiar with Love and Rockets. She got all snippy with me once "don't think just because you read Love and Rockets you know shit about hispanic culture!"

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 15:36 (twenty years ago)

Did you counter w/ "don't think just because you listen to the Dead C you know shit about NOIZE?"

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 15:39 (twenty years ago)

"don't think just because you listen to the Dead C you know shit about New Zealand culture!"

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 15:57 (twenty years ago)

That was my original post. :)

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 16:01 (twenty years ago)

It's a hard choice - two of the greats. I wrote about the two giant collections on FT earlier this year, and based on those rereadings, I'm leaning just about towards Beto. Jaime's art is a little lovelier, but not necessarily any more effective, but I think Beto sustains stories better, gets more meat out of a wider range of characters than Jaime does. This is not to suggest that Jaime isn't a great writer too, but that's why I'd just about take Beto.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 20:34 (twenty years ago)

Martin can you link to the piece that you wrote? I'd like to read it! The Palomar collection is just terrific. So so great.

― steviespitfire (steviespitfire), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 20:55 (twenty years ago)

dammit, why has the pic vanished from the Gilbert/Palomar item? Anyway, it's at http://www.freakytrigger.co.uk/wedge/2005_01_01_wedge_archive.html#110634825144941407, then the Jaime/Locas one is http://www.freakytrigger.co.uk/wedge/2005_04_01_wedge_archive.html#111305953015940797.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 21:17 (twenty years ago)

can I repeat my oft-repeated lament that the Palomar collection doesn't include Poison River? I know it takes place outside of Palomar and prior to Palomar, but at that point in the narrative it just seemed to add so much needed back-story.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 21:47 (twenty years ago)

Thank you, Martin!

― steviespitfire (steviespitfire), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 22:15 (twenty years ago)

Also you're spot-on about the charm of Beto's roughness, a largeness, if that's the word I'm searching for, that's so inclusive. It's as beautiful as his brother's. And yes, his page designs are so graceful, the movement from frame to frame is so fluid: I'm looking at one set of panels in Human Diastrophism right now, and, without wanting to spoil it for anyone, the juxtaposition is so effective...

I wish I'd read all of the Maggie stories, and in depth enough, to comment on the fact that you feel they decline so much in towards the end. It's the Palomar stories, yeah, that really grabbed me. I recommend the collection wholeheartedly for anyone wanting to get reacquainted.

― steviespitfire (steviespitfire), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 22:30 (twenty years ago)

Really--wow! I've always thought that Jaime's stuff gets better and better as the book goes along--the early detailed stuff is incredibly pretty, but the simpler version of his style that he developed around the time he dropped the adventure-y stuff is what I glommed onto. One thing I sort of love about Maggie & Hopey being separated is that you always imagine them being together, but after they have their fight at the beginning of "Wig Wam Bam," they don't actually meet up again until the end of the book (even though most of "Wig Wam Bam" is about their friendship, so it takes a while to catch on), and before that they spend the whole time Hopey's on tour (and its aftermath) apart... and it takes a while to catch on to how badly Hopey's betrayed Maggie by not waking her up to get her into the van

― Douglas (Douglas), Thursday, 6 October 2005 01:40 (twenty years ago)

If anybody picked one of them without qualification I would angrily defend the other one.

Ha so OTM! I remember when my friends and I all read L&R at around the same time and they would go oh Beto Beto and I was all !!! Jaime!!! and then I read the first three pro-Jaime posts on this thread and I was thinking, hmmm come on now Beto's pretty spiffy.

I think I'm a Jaime guy because of Maggie, though.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 6 October 2005 10:13 (twenty years ago)

At least they've said it's going to be in the next enormous Luba collection - "Flies On The Ceiling" and all the other backstory shorts from the Locasverse are LOST FOREVER

― kit brash (kit brash), Thursday, 6 October 2005 10:27 (twenty years ago)

will no one vote for poor old mario?

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Thursday, 6 October 2005 10:30 (twenty years ago)

oh man, I didn't realize Flies On the Ceiling isn't in the big Locas book! That fucked my mind up real good when I was 16.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Thursday, 6 October 2005 11:55 (twenty years ago)

I don't know that I've ever seen anything by Mario.

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Thursday, 6 October 2005 12:24 (twenty years ago)

also what about everything else Gilbert's done? The bizarre Grip for Vertigo, Girl Crazy for Dark Horse, Birdland for Eros.

and props to both for Mr. X. I think it's time for a Mr. X thread.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Thursday, 6 October 2005 13:38 (twenty years ago)

i was surprised in reading the locas collection how loosely it all hung together in the end. i also found myself preferring that sweet spot he hit right after the rocket stuff but prior to the death of speedy. (i was still a little choked up by the end mind you.) so yeah, jamie i guess.

― strng hlkngtn: what does it mean? (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 6 October 2005 17:03 (twenty years ago)

http://www.tcj.com/banners/landr.gif

Fantagraphics: Hitting Their Key Demo Where It Hurts

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 10 October 2005 15:16 (twenty years ago)

― strng hlkngtn: what does it mean? (dubplatestyle), Monday, 10 October 2005 16:24 (twenty years ago)

Take that, Greg Horn!

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 10 October 2005 16:28 (twenty years ago)

that'll be my new animated screensaver, thank you.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Monday, 10 October 2005 18:43 (twenty years ago)

christ! hopey looks totally K-ROWR with an eyepatch.

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Monday, 10 October 2005 22:50 (twenty years ago)

I'm finally reading Palomar start-to-finish right now.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Monday, 10 October 2005 22:56 (twenty years ago)

Like Martin, I go for Jaime for the art and Gilbert for the stories. Although I think Jaime edged out Beto altogether in the early sci-fi stuff.

Also, Hopey trying on glasses a couple of issues back even more ROWR than Hopey with an eyepatch but, yeah, s'all about Maggie really.

― robster (robster), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 07:54 (twenty years ago)

ok, here it starts. I just got to Farewell, My Palomar in the big Palomar book. The story jumps ahead in chronology quite a bit, but that's standard in Beto world. But for those who have the book and didn't read the series(or collections), what should be realized is everything before this was written from like 83-88 or so? Then Farewell My Palomar was written in 93. What's NOT in the Palomar collection are the two books he wrote during that time, first, Love and Rockets X, which follows Maricela and Riri to America, and Poison River, which is the story of Luba and Ofelia's past and how they eventually arrived at Palomar. While it makes sense to not include them, I really think they help flesh things out. Of course after the big Palomar book all the characters continued on, in New Love, in Luba and the new Love and Rockets, all the stories about the family members in america, Luba's step-sisters, her daughters, Pipo etc. But I really feel like he's gone off on enough of a tangent that as fascinating as it is to keep on with these characters, it's not necessary.

In summation? If you have the book Palomar, Poison River is a must and Love and Rockets X is recommended. With those I think you pretty much complete the saga as written during the initial run of Love and Rockets. Everything since is still enjoyable, but for fans only, and for people who've already absorbed all that came before. Seperate from those, the collection Fear of Comics is a wonderful collection of Gilberts weirdo/underground "comix" as published in the last few issues of the first Love and Rockets series and during the run of New Love. So there.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 20:14 (twenty years ago)

ok. just finished Palomar. The final chapters are not only filled with allusions to Luba's mother, but centered around Gorgo as well. All this talk about Gorgo protecting several generations of Lubas family. All reasons why I think a reading of Poison River is essential. Riri shows up and there are references to what happened in Love and Rockets X, but it's not as vital.

Also, where were fritz and petra introduced? Love and Rockets X or were there other stories about Maria in america that happen post-Poison River but didn't make it into Palomar because it didn't take place there? I'll have to look at the individual issues again, I guess.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 21:46 (twenty years ago)

Fritz & Petra were introduced in Birdland, then turned up in "Love And Rockets" (the story collected in book X).

― kit brash (kit brash), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 07:57 (twenty years ago)

they were? i can't remember. which is the one with the lisp?

― mullygrubbr (bulbs), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 08:26 (twenty years ago)

no, actually that makes perfect sense. birdland almost redeems fantags eros line. (add maybe, uh, i want to be yr dog?)

― mullygrubbr (bulbs), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 08:33 (twenty years ago)

and box

― mullygrubbr (bulbs), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 08:38 (twenty years ago)

ah...haven't read Birdland in ages. Frtiz is the one with the lisp. Petra is the one with the breast reduction and huge thighs, whose daughter is Venus. These three have been the center of Betos stories since the ending of the first season. Fritz's affair with Sergio, the introduction of Mark, lots of flashbacks to Fritz's teenage years. I need to read it all in order again or maybe wait for more collections because I the order has me lost with all the different series.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 14:16 (twenty years ago)

the bestest Eros ever was Dave Cooper's Cynthia Petal's Really Fantastic Alien Sex Frenzy! Or maybe Birdland, yeah, but it was just Beto-plus-copious-jizz, whereas Cynthia Petal was the birth of Cooper's adult style. Er, his mature style. Uh, I mean where he became a really really great cartoonist....

otherwise Gaz probably OTM, though an Eros Comix: S/D could be interesting. Ironwood? Wendy Whitebread? I haven't read 'em.

― kit brash (kit brash), Thursday, 13 October 2005 09:14 (twenty years ago)

eleven months pass...

Any questions for JH? I’ll be interviewing him on Thursday… which gives me 48 hours to read all of Locas and Ghost of Hoppers (both almost entirely for the first time). Should be fun, but… yikes.

Are there any really important stories left out of Locas? My library has pretty much all the L&R paperbacks.

― Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Tuesday, 3 October 2006 16:21 (nineteen years ago)

There's a lot of stuff that's not in Locas. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Locas in Love, Dicks & Deedees, and Whoa Nellie! also come after Locas?

― Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 3 October 2006 16:36 (nineteen years ago)

I sort of blagged the interview as I'm the "comics guy", but I actually kinda know bupkis about L&R. Glad this is giving me a chance to bother to catch up, though.

― Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Tuesday, 3 October 2006 16:38 (nineteen years ago)

Cool. I also checked out all the L&R trades from the library and read them in a rush.

― Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 3 October 2006 16:43 (nineteen years ago)

"Flies on the Ceiling" is the big canonical L&Rv1 story that's not in "Locas," but there are a bunch of others.

http://www.fantagraphics.com/blog/archive/2005_08_01_fantagraphics_archive.html#112380249335003546 has a detailed explanation of what's not in "Locas" and what is.

Maybe ask Jaime about life drawing & drawing from reference--how much he sketches/refers to real-world stuff and how much he just make things up off the top of his head (another cartoonist once told me that Jaime just makes up EVERYTHING, if he needs a car he invents one, etc.).

― Douglas (Douglas), Tuesday, 3 October 2006 16:48 (nineteen years ago)

In one of his interviews (the TCJ one that Gaiman did with him and Berto, maybe), he said something along the lines of that he doesn't use reference while drawing at all, but if he feels himself getting stale or choked up, he just goes outside and walks around looking at stuff for a day or so to recharge his internal reference banks.

good luck with reading everything in 48 hrs!

― occasional mongrel (kit brash), Tuesday, 3 October 2006 20:40 (nineteen years ago)

You should get some Red Bulls and a bottle vodka and stay up all night (while posting regular updates).

― Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 3 October 2006 21:13 (nineteen years ago)

Free copies of Locas and Ghost of Hoppers just arrived at door, hand-delivered (!) by book company publicist. Might need to take the day off work tommorow.

― Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Tuesday, 3 October 2006 23:35 (nineteen years ago)

XAMIE 4EVER

I prefer both his art and stories to his brother's, gimmie "modern world/civilization" L&R over that other crap any day of the week

― Raymond Cummings (Raymond Cummings), Wednesday, 4 October 2006 10:54 (nineteen years ago)

Only page 250 in so far -- the wrestling one -- I'm a slowww reader. I have to admit, though, slogging through the first two 'Mechanics' stories, I was like, "Urggh, is it all gonna be like this?" But now it's into the more character-based stuff, with better dialogue (characters having conversations rather than random non-sequiturs) I'm hooked.

― Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Wednesday, 4 October 2006 12:29 (nineteen years ago)

gimmie "modern world/civilization" L&R over that other crap any day of the week

I love Palomar, but putting that aside hasn't Gilbert been doing modern U.S. stories for years now?

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 4 October 2006 13:17 (nineteen years ago)

you could be right, i haven't purchased any of the assoc. issues lately

― Raymond Cummings (Raymond Cummings), Wednesday, 4 October 2006 15:59 (nineteen years ago)

where do i even start?

― s1ocki (slutsky), Wednesday, 4 October 2006 16:14 (nineteen years ago)

There are bunch of recommendations (and good discussion) on this thread: indie guilt spring '06

But I'd say just start with Locas (Jaime) and Palomar (Gilbert).

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 4 October 2006 17:15 (nineteen years ago)

Just up to "Death of Speedy" and loving it. I've got Locas if y'wanna borrow it next time yer in town, s1ocki

― Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Wednesday, 4 October 2006 17:37 (nineteen years ago)

ding ding ding!

― s1ocki (slutsky), Wednesday, 4 October 2006 18:39 (nineteen years ago)

Finished! Have to agree w/Strng about liking "that sweet spot he hit right after the rocket stuff but prior to The Death of Speedy", although I'd say that sweet extends quite a bit past that story. I'm surprised how dark it gets towards the end, and how little about Hopey it is.

But I bet everyone says that.

'Ghost of Hoppers' still to go...

― Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Thursday, 5 October 2006 02:25 (nineteen years ago)

BTW, I am really looking forward to reading the whole again without having to speed-read it. Especially Wigwam Bam and on...

― Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Thursday, 5 October 2006 02:27 (nineteen years ago)

Thing I love: for all that it's the "Maggie-and-Hopey stories," M. and H. actually spend almost no time at all together after Hopey casually "forgets" to bring Maggie along the morning the band goes off on tour. (Hopey's got a really, really deep inconsiderate streak that nobody likes to talk about or accuse her of--and it's actually not clear for a little while in Locas what exactly happened there...)

― Douglas (Douglas), Thursday, 5 October 2006 14:46 (nineteen years ago)

I always thought Hopey was an annoying wee bitch, just for stringing along Terry and Maggie, before even she "forgot" to take Maggie on tour. I did learn a lot of good swears off her though as a teen.

― Mark Co (Markco), Thursday, 5 October 2006 14:53 (nineteen years ago)

I didn't quite understand why she 'forgets' Maggie -- probably due to too much yerba mate-fuelled skim reading -- can someone explain?

The Hopey swears are excellent, though. Shame no one calls each other 'Tuna'.

― Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Thursday, 5 October 2006 15:17 (nineteen years ago)

Also, any last minute Qs, interview in 60 mins.

― Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Thursday, 5 October 2006 15:44 (nineteen years ago)

Wow -- what a nice guy. It's such a pleasure when you speak to someone who doesn't actually mind being interviewed.

No big news -- Hopey's getting glasses (but that may have happened already) and lines in her face, finally.

― Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Thursday, 5 October 2006 18:24 (nineteen years ago)

Funniest thing: Jamie's wife has threatened to stop reading his comics if he doesn’t stop being mean to Maggie and have something nice happen to her for a change.

Second funniest thing: I emailed a certain, sometimes-mentioned-in-ILC-cartoonist who happens to write about (modern) punk rock guys and gals, and he said he coudln't comment as he'd never read Love and Rockets.

― Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Thursday, 5 October 2006 19:15 (nineteen years ago)

That is awesome about his wife.

Where will the interview show up?

― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 5 October 2006 19:27 (nineteen years ago)

I'll email a link when it comes out.

― Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Thursday, 5 October 2006 22:02 (nineteen years ago)

Essential reading.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 6 October 2006 07:41 (nineteen years ago)

GUY GOFORTH

― Raymond Cummings (Raymond Cummings), Tuesday, 10 October 2006 10:51 (nineteen years ago)

Hey cool, I found the profile, linked from Tom Spurgeon's blog. Nice job!

― The Bearnaise-Stain Bears (Rock Hardy), Friday, 13 October 2006 20:04 (nineteen years ago)

"lithesome"?

― It's the lazy and immoral way to become super hip. (Austin, Still), Friday, 13 October 2006 20:48 (nineteen years ago)

one year passes...

http://www.bobdylan.com/moderntimes/images/tt.poster.jpg

Jaime kills it for Bob Dylan. BIG IMAGE!

― Oilyrags, Friday, 26 October 2007 19:27 (eighteen years ago)

That's so great!

― Chuck_Tatum, Friday, 26 October 2007 19:33 (eighteen years ago)

if there's a relatively current Dylan thread at ILM, it should go there, too.

― Oilyrags, Friday, 26 October 2007 20:08 (eighteen years ago)

one year passes...

I just took a look at Girl From H.O.P.P.E.R.S. for the first time in a while last night. Did you ever notice that dude can draw like a motherfucker?

― UEK - Big Tempin' (Oilyrags), Friday, 5 December 2008 19:10 (seventeen years ago)

I like Xaime's artwork the best of the two, but the best stories of the Love & Rockets stuff I think was stories dealing with Palomar.

I kind of wish that they would have gotten paid and continued to work on Mr.X, as I always thought that was a cool series.

― earlnash, Saturday, 6 December 2008 04:20 (seventeen years ago)

Jamie. Not that Gilbert's a slouch by any means, but Jamie's easily one of the best American cartoonists of the last few decades. Plus his stories seem more honest than Gilbert's, and the characters more authentically complex & relatable. So much variety, too: the baby Maggie stories, Penny Century, Izzy Ortiz. I do give Gilbert credit for the moral complexity of his writing, but it often doesn't move me much. And the giant hooters thing gets old fast.

― Suggest Ban Permalink (contenderizer), Saturday, 6 December 2008 19:18 (seventeen years ago)

Beto’s going to hold it for the next couple of years if he keeps doing Speak Of The Devil and New Tales-level material while Xaime’s off in space with super-chix.

― venkman boners are totally canon (sic), Sunday, 7 December 2008 23:16 (seventeen years ago)

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.