The A To Zs Of I Love Comics

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[Thread format: should be bleedin obvious - first poster does A, next one does B, then C and so on until Z and back to A again. Celebrate, recommend, criticise, comment, etc etc.]

A is for Amanda Waller - who was left out of the ILC Characters Poll (ask your dad) how exactly?? I'm not sure anyone but John Ostrander could write her WELL, but the stereotype is easy to get and it's hard to think of any other post-Crisis non-powered type who's become so thoroughly irreplacable in DC. At her best when giving the hairdryer treatment to villains on one page and presidents on the next.

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 10 October 2005 22:15 (twenty years ago)

B is for Big Numbers--the greatest unfinished comic book of all time, thanks to Bill Sienkiewicz giving up on the sheer amount of detail he was supposed to draw, followed by Al Columbia freaking out and destroying the artwork for #3 and 4, and the subsequent collapse of Tundra (and what happened to Mad Love, anyway?). The legendary giant psychotic sheet of paper that tracked what happened to all the characters is something I've always wanted to see. I actually bought a photocopy of the script to the never-published #3 from a CBLDF auction a couple of years ago, and a few pages' worth of art have appeared here and there...

― Douglas (Douglas), Monday, 10 October 2005 22:33 (twenty years ago)

C is for Cheeky, Leo Baxendale's anarchic 70s IPC comic: messy and uproarious, the Marxist creator of the Bash Street Kids broke the fourth and several other walls as his demented toddler hero rampaged across the page. Or that's the myth as I heard it - by the time I encountered him, Cheeky was well confined to the pages of his - entirely classic but less freewheeling - stablemate Whizzer and Chips. Does anyone know if Cheeky actually was all that?

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 10 October 2005 22:37 (twenty years ago)

D is for Deadenders. Slightly Sci-fi mod revival five years before The Originals, by Ed Brubaker when he was just an ex-indie writer, and Warren Pleece when he was still drawing people with chins for days. Smart, cute, cool, shot in the head by issue 16.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 10 October 2005 22:59 (twenty years ago)

E is for England, which seems to produce writers who enjoy Ideas that are weirder, more science-like, more self-aware and far-out dude, more gonzo, political and anarchic than the American funnies.

Alternately:

E is for "E is for Extinction", an arc of New X-Men.

― Leeeeeeeeee (Leee), Monday, 10 October 2005 23:28 (twenty years ago)

F is for Fanboygraphics, the snooty comix nerd's probable favorite publisher.

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 01:58 (twenty years ago)

G is for Green Arrow's Finger, more righteous and accusatory than any boxing-glove mounted dart.

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 02:02 (twenty years ago)

H is for Helm, a talking helmet, one of Rogue Trooper's 'biochip buddies', and surely the most useless character ever to appear as a 'hero' in a comic. What could he do? Nothing. Did he have useful advice to give? No. A desperate attempt to give him some spotlight time resulted in "Hats Off To Helm", two episodes in 2000AD that would make a dog laugh. However the comic wouldn't have been the same without him - the Bez of 2000AD.

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 07:55 (twenty years ago)

I is for Indie Guilt, the corner of my living room piled high with copies of Optic Nerve, Hate, Eightball, Love & Rockets and a whole mess of other titles approved by Grouchy Groth and his followers.

― robster (robster), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 08:09 (twenty years ago)

J is for Johns (Geoff): How we love to mock his lame arc climaxes and continuity fanwankery ("tonight I shall poignantly link Red Bee's son -in-law to Power girl's bosom" etc). How we fear his increased stranglehold on the DCU.

― Mark C (Markco), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 08:45 (twenty years ago)

K is for Kamandi Boy of the future, though it was future that seemed to be full of dinosaurs and secret guns and wotnot. Goeff Johns is probably aching to find some way to link this to DC continuity in some way or other,though he may just get Grant Morrison to reinvent it for him. And of course Kamandi was just another great idea from the boxy head drawing pen of K is also for King Kirby

― Pete (Pete), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 09:18 (twenty years ago)

M's going to be interesting...

xpost Pete stop being greedy.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 09:21 (twenty years ago)

Well the idea is to go back to the beginning after Z!

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 09:23 (twenty years ago)

L is for Lois Lane I Am Curious (Black). NUFF SAID, TRUE BELIEVERS!

― aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 09:26 (twenty years ago)

M is for Maggie, the comics character you can fancy without being a saddo (OK, not really).

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 09:29 (twenty years ago)

N is for Never Finished The status of many of the polls on I Love Comics.

― Pete (Pete), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 09:34 (twenty years ago)

O is for -over, as in cross-over - the bane of any comic-fan's existence.

― bucky wunderlick (bucky), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 10:05 (twenty years ago)

Bane?? Bane?? We love them really.

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 10:06 (twenty years ago)

P is for Po faced Absurdity An excellent description of the tone of many silver age DC Comics (see Black Lois Lane, Superman being a dick and making Lois and Jimmy suffer, etc etc)

― Mark C (Markco), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 10:08 (twenty years ago)

Oh right, I was thinking Morrison vs Moore vs Millar vs Milligan vs Miller. But Maggie wins :)

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 10:10 (twenty years ago)

O is for Ordway, Jerry We couldn't think of much he'd done of note the last time he came up here either.

― aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 10:32 (twenty years ago)

Q is for Quislet one of those "weird" alien characters of the Legion Of Superheroes who never quite becomes a fan favorite and is sweeped aside in the next revamp (due to the unstable nature of the 31st century there's one every five years)

― Amadeo (Amadeo G.), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 12:11 (twenty years ago)

(sorry for the two Os, brainfart)

― aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 12:16 (twenty years ago)

R is for Rogue Trooper Probably the lamest of the big 2000AD strips.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 12:26 (twenty years ago)

S is for Sim, Dave. Ludicrously talented nutjob who wrote and drew a 6000 page story about a grumpy Aardvark and believes he is the only person in the history of the world who has discovered the true interpertation of the Torah. It's something to do with not liking women and gays, apparently.

― chap who would dare to kill all the threads (chap), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 12:32 (twenty years ago)

T is for TINY FOOTPRINTS!!! Especially when found in a brain

― Mark C (Markco), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 12:50 (twenty years ago)

U is for Uatu The Watcher, the all-knowing cosmic busybody neighbor of the Marvel Universe. Sworn to an oath of non-interference (as are all Watchers - it's in their by-laws), Uatu finds many ways in which to sorta not adhere to that oath. But, hey, if it wasn't for him, Earth would be a tasty morsel stuck between THE TEETH OF GALACTUS, so keep on keeping on, you mondo-sized chromedome you.

― David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 12:55 (twenty years ago)

V is for V for VendettaOne of Alan Moore's better works, featuring a song that was adapted later on by David J and will be turned into a movie by the Wachowski's, who I fear just Don't Get It.

― Matt Maxwell (Matt M.), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 12:58 (twenty years ago)

V is for Verily. Forsooth, all beings of great power in the Marvel universe doth speaketh thusly.

― chap who would dare to kill all the threads (chap), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 12:59 (twenty years ago)

Sorry, two Vs, my fault.

― chap who would dare to kill all the threads (chap), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 12:59 (twenty years ago)

W is for Watchmen One of Alan Moore's better better works, inspiring a song by Pop Will Eat Itself and will not be turned into a movie by the Paramount, who just didn't get it.

― Pete (Pete), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 13:00 (twenty years ago)

There should be no hyphen in Wachowskis. I should not post before coffee.

― Matt Maxwell (Matt M.), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 13:02 (twenty years ago)

W is for Wolverine - still stunningly popular with 'the fans' despite his appearing in pretty much every Marvel comic ever. That enduring popularity is as interesting a topic for discussion as most of the things he's actually appeared in. "A man is no man if he hasn't got a beast inside", as the Inspiral Carpets once unmemorably sang, capturing the heart of the Wolvappeal, perhaps.

xpost blast

X is for X-Men, the most popular of whom is Wolverine then.

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 13:02 (twenty years ago)

Y is for Yellow Kid , the first comic strip.

― jocelyn (Jocelyn), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 13:06 (twenty years ago)

Z is for ZCult which only some of us have managed to work out.

― aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 13:15 (twenty years ago)

A is for googling Acid Archie, with ILC no. 1&2 results.

― Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 13:35 (twenty years ago)

B is for Black Lightning He guest stars in everything, all the time!

― Mark C (Markco), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 13:38 (twenty years ago)

C is for Charlie's War Seminal British WWII strip which ran for at least four times the length of the actual World War II and may well be the finest war strip ever written.

(May well be = probably isn't).

― Pete (Pete), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 13:41 (twenty years ago)

D is for Darkseid, he's like the Hitler of Space.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 13:43 (twenty years ago)

B is for Buddy Bradley, not-so-secret identification figure for snooty comix nerds.

For some reason he appears to be swedish or finnish or something here...

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 13:44 (twenty years ago)

man, totally crossposted.

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 13:45 (twenty years ago)

E is for The Eternals, one of Kirby's gifts to Marvel during his 70s tenure at the House of Ideas; recently used by Chuck Austen as an excuse to MAKE MINE MARVELOUS SUPERCOMICSEX (with a kink); soon to be REBORN under the guiding influence of comic superstar-at-large Neil Gaiman, who will hopefully keep the Unimind's sword sheathed.

― David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 13:49 (twenty years ago)

And, of course, F is for FING FANG FOOM!!!!!

― David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 13:52 (twenty years ago)

Furthermore, F is for Frank, not so secret identification figure for snooty comix nerds.

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 13:53 (twenty years ago)

G is for Giant sized Man Thing snigger, etc

― Mark C (Markco), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 13:53 (twenty years ago)

H is for Henry Pym. Jesus, decide on a fucking gimmick already, why don'cha?

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 13:54 (twenty years ago)

I'm sorry. I got greedy with the Fs.

― David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 13:55 (twenty years ago)

I'll live.

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 13:56 (twenty years ago)

Sorry, I guess that should be

I is for I'll Live

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 13:58 (twenty years ago)

J is for Judge Dredd

http://www.internet.ad/ezquerra/Imatges/Judge_Dredd/FightingBack.jpg

Everyone's favourite fascist bullyboy.

― chap who would dare to kill all the threads (chap), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 14:02 (twenty years ago)

Skipping 202 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

yeah, sorry for coming off overly snotty! but y'know, the whole idea initially was that he'd hand off the writing to other people by the end of the first year (and there were plenty of invitations made to other writers on Tom Strong, at least, in that time period) (it's just that everyone said no and it took three or four more years before Wildstorm started getting Michael Moorcock and Ed Brubaker and Joe Casey and so on to take over...)

― kit brash (kit brash), Sunday, 16 October 2005 05:09 (twenty years ago)

B is for BILLY THE FISH half man half fish goalkeeper of Fulchester United.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Sunday, 16 October 2005 12:34 (twenty years ago)

I didn't know that, Kit. I think I've just been making stuff up. Doesn't help that I was drunk when I posted that.

― chap who would dare to violate the least amount of laws of physics (chap), Sunday, 16 October 2005 14:07 (twenty years ago)

C is for Caspar the Friendly Ghost. I'm sure I've read some of his stories when I was a little kid, same as the Little Lulu and Richie Rich and so forth from Keystone. I just can't remember anything about any of it (well, except for Richie Rich.)

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Sunday, 16 October 2005 14:52 (twenty years ago)

C is for the Comics Code Authority, which is perhaps indirectly responsible for the superhero genre being the dominant force in comics after it banned all those nasty and corrupting EC horror comics in the 50s. Does it even exist any more?

― chap who would dare to violate the least amount of laws of physics (chap), Sunday, 16 October 2005 15:09 (twenty years ago)

D is for Doombots, a brilliant invention that enabled writers to consign any Dr Doom story they felt wasn't up to standard to the dustbin of continuity. Doom is more likely than not to be a robot any time he appears now.

― Vic Fluro (Vic Fluro), Sunday, 16 October 2005 15:18 (twenty years ago)

E is for Elongated Man, who i hope hasn't yet appeared in this thread and i'm too lazy to check. originally he seemed to be a more serious plastic man analogue, then he became a detective, then he joined JLI and became a Giffen-ized joke... until he was used to nice effect in Starman. oh, and they killed his wife recently in some sort of cross-company hoo-ha.

― bucky wunderlick (bucky), Monday, 17 October 2005 01:28 (twenty years ago)

F is for Fairchild beloved and iconic character of the 90s, completely forgotten in the Y2K decade. Proof of this is the fact that this is only the third time she gets a mention on ILC, and it quite probably be the last one.

― iodine (iodine), Monday, 17 October 2005 01:56 (twenty years ago)

G is for Green Arrow 2 aka Connor Hawke Green Arrow's son who was brought up by shaolin monks (that's an original concept for a martial arts character Chuck Dixon, you steaming great hack) and is now kind of pointless now that the original Green Arrow is back. rumoured tot be gay by fans on account of (a) his haircut, (b) he never has girfrinds and (c) because he totally is!!!!

― Mark C (Markco), Monday, 17 October 2005 07:40 (twenty years ago)

Elongated Man was just about as silly when he and Sue were driving around solving mysteries on their holidays than when they joined JLI.

― kit brash (kit brash), Monday, 17 October 2005 08:39 (twenty years ago)

H is for Hero For Hire a comic which completely misunderstood the concept of heroism.

― Pete (Pete), Monday, 17 October 2005 12:16 (twenty years ago)

Gosh, I don't think it did at all. Cage came from a tough background and would have liked to turn his new tough skin into cash, but it seems to me he generally did the right/heroic thing whether even when he knew he wasn't going to get paid for it. But I didn't read every issue, so I may have missed something.

― William Paper Scissors (Rock Hardy), Monday, 17 October 2005 12:28 (twenty years ago)

You missed the issue where Luke roughed up Misty Knight's granny after she only gave him $5 for Christmas.

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 17 October 2005 12:33 (twenty years ago)

Luke Cage = Johnny Alpha, as least in the first Essential. I seem to remember that he gets teh agonies of conscience whenever he takes money and goes around giving all his hard-earned cash to the homeless, then listening to his white buddy say things like "Hey wow Luke you must have loads of readies after this caper!" and Cage sort of looks wistful as the camera pans across to some homeless dude crushed by a giant bag of money.

In fact, the only time I can remember Cage taking the cash with a smile is when he flew all the way to latveria and took it from Doom for some business involving robots, after which he totally lectured Doom for being a bad credit risk.

Still, a better title might have been LUKE CAGE, SUPER PRIVATE EYE.

― Vic Fluro (Vic Fluro), Monday, 17 October 2005 16:27 (twenty years ago)

TOP DICK IN BED-STUY

― William Paper Scissors (Rock Hardy), Monday, 17 October 2005 16:42 (twenty years ago)

I is for I Was Wrong About Luke Cage.

― Pete (Pete), Monday, 17 October 2005 16:43 (twenty years ago)

J is for Joker who likes to kill Robins and used to be the Batman sweeps-week equivalent. Hasn't actually done much of note lately, as far as I can tell. After what he did to Jason Todd (or DID HE?) and Barbara Gordon (BUT WILL SHE?), how much further could they push him?

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Monday, 17 October 2005 16:53 (twenty years ago)

Lest we forget, we left him in the tender loving hands of OMG JASON TODD eating crow(bar).

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 17 October 2005 17:03 (twenty years ago)

He was actually last seen healthy and haranguing Black Mask in the War Crimes bonerfest.

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Monday, 17 October 2005 17:10 (twenty years ago)

Oh, darn - I missed the bonerfest. Now I am out of the loop 4EVAH.

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 17 October 2005 17:15 (twenty years ago)

I'm going to revive the Red Hood thread to further discuss this...

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Monday, 17 October 2005 17:19 (twenty years ago)

K is for Kree: I re-read the first appearance of the Kree (i.e. the Sentry, and then "FROM THE DEADLY LIPS OF RONAN") last night and it was brilliant, Stan Lee loved that "oh primitive backwater" trope and the Kree came across as genuinely powerful and mysterious, and then they ended up kind of boring, and what are they up to now anyway?

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 17 October 2005 17:30 (twenty years ago)

I want to say Busiek did some Kree-ing during his Avengers run (either in a related mini, or in the series proper), but I can't recall.

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 17 October 2005 17:43 (twenty years ago)

L is for LUDATITS, a now legendary character by Maastro van Liefeld. Only a select few can claim to having seen the Ludatits, and therefore they are cool forever.

― Leeeeeeeeee (Leee), Monday, 17 October 2005 17:49 (twenty years ago)

You don't know how long I've been waiting to post that.

― Leeeeeeeeee (Leee), Monday, 17 October 2005 17:50 (twenty years ago)

M is for MONGROL, deranged ABC Warrior robot in love with Lara Byrne.

http://www.dreamnation.fsnet.co.uk/mong2.jpg

― DV (dirtyvicar), Monday, 17 October 2005 20:26 (twenty years ago)

I fucking LOVE the Black Hole Mission. Bisley's finest work by miles.

― chap who would dare to violate the least amount of laws of physics (chap), Monday, 17 October 2005 22:35 (twenty years ago)

N is for Northstar for he too is a homosexual!

― Mark C (Markco), Tuesday, 18 October 2005 14:10 (twenty years ago)

O is for Obelix who fell into a cauldron of magic potion when he was a baby and so can't have any more.

― Vic Fluro (Vic Fluro), Tuesday, 18 October 2005 16:37 (twenty years ago)

I think that's the first time we've doubled on a letter. Well, you got closer to the essence of the character than I did.

P is for Parademon. Who is dead. That's all I know.

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Tuesday, 18 October 2005 19:52 (twenty years ago)

Q is for Qurac a fictional despotic Middle Eastern country in the DCU Universe that caused a lot of problems in the 80s/90s. Not heard from so much lately.

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Tuesday, 18 October 2005 20:00 (twenty years ago)

NOOOOOO i mean O is for Overkill, The Computer That Attempted To Enslave Humanity before Terminator was the gleam in a writer's eye.

― Vic Fluro (Vic Fluro), Tuesday, 18 October 2005 22:16 (twenty years ago)

R is for Rupert the Bear whose naughty naked Nutwood nobbing in the Schoolkids issue of Oz got its perpetrators jailed

http://www.26pigs.com/pippin/rupert.JPG

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 18 October 2005 22:27 (twenty years ago)

that's old-skool rupert not nobbing, with a mouse called ferdie i think

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 18 October 2005 22:28 (twenty years ago)

S is for Sid's Snake about a boy called Sid who had a highly trained Snake which assumed various tubular shapes to produce hilarity week after week. Sid was also leader of the Whizz-Kids, appearing as he did in Whizzer And Chips, the only comic which was also a full-scale civil war, the Whizz-Kids and Chip-Ites conducting terrible vengeance against each other within its pages. To buy a copy WAS TO CHOOSE YOUR SIDE. Oddly the Chief Chip-Ite also began with an S but I'm sure his turn will come in the fullness of time.

― Vic Fluro (Vic Fluro), Tuesday, 18 October 2005 22:34 (twenty years ago)

T is for Tiger Tim who flourished in the 40s and my mum liked when small :(

http://www.lambiek.net/artists/baker_julius_s/baker_js_tigertim.gif

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 18 October 2005 22:37 (twenty years ago)

U is for Unus the Untouchable, the X-Men villain with the best code name ever.

http://www.marveldirectory.com/pics/picsu/unus.gif

― Chris F. (servoret), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 04:12 (twenty years ago)

V is for Virmin Vunderbar. No chance I'll improve on Leonard's explantion so go check it out.

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 04:58 (twenty years ago)

his explanAtion is pretty good, too.

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 04:59 (twenty years ago)

W is for, "Who cares? It's a girl!" A failed ILC meme. Also a summation of American comics culture, as conveyed by the lovely folks at Formally Known as the Justice League.

I can't tell you how long I've waited for W to come my way, too.

― Leeeeeeeeee (Leee), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 05:37 (twenty years ago)

X is for Xorn and Xorneto, which rhymes with http://www.unilever.com.pl/images/produkty/ALGIDA_CORNETTO2.jpg

― Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 06:58 (twenty years ago)

Y is for Yagneto? Not sure I get this meme. So Y is also for Yellowjacket the slightly more confident (for which read wife beatery) of Hank Pym's alter egos.

― Pete (Pete), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 09:08 (twenty years ago)

http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/z/zorgblub.jpg

― Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 09:16 (twenty years ago)

A is for... Abelard Snazz, the Man With The Double Decker Brain.

http://pc59te.dte.uma.es/cdb/series/2000ad/bitmaps/snazz.jpg

He was a genius, but kind of stupid with it.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Sunday, 30 October 2005 13:22 (twenty years ago)

B is for Basset, Fred Basset. Which for some reason, I thought was the height of humour (as opposed to humor) at age 7.

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/uc/20051029/ltmfba051030.gif

― bucky wunderlick (bucky), Sunday, 30 October 2005 14:47 (twenty years ago)

alex graham died in 1991!

― Ward Fowler (Ward Fowler), Sunday, 30 October 2005 16:02 (twenty years ago)

It's no wonder his strip is so lame, then - how many great strips have ever been produced by a dead person?

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Sunday, 30 October 2005 16:08 (twenty years ago)

I can't actually identify a joke in that strip.

― chap who would dare to spy on his best mate's ex (chap), Sunday, 30 October 2005 16:15 (twenty years ago)

Conceptual humor! I loves it!

― Matt Maxwell (Matt M.), Sunday, 30 October 2005 17:42 (twenty years ago)

C is for Collector, The who made a handy plot device for getting superheroes to FITE against all logic - and also satirised the collector culture prevalent in comics! (I'm not sure how much satirising he actually did, mind. I've a feeling it ate into his making-heroes-fite time.)

― Vic Fluro (Vic Fluro), Sunday, 30 October 2005 18:13 (twenty years ago)

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