Marvel's Civil War II in 2016: "Does anybody have a better idea?"

"No? Fuck it then, I guess we're gonna recycle this garbage and hope the movie helps."

http://marvel.com/news/comics/25613/the_road_to_civil_war_ii_begins

I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and assuming this is a decidedly different story that's just capitalizing on the movie. Actually, the latter part is more surprising, as there's historically been very little synergy between what's in the theater and whatever's happening in the comics (e.g. 616 Cap being 'dead' when the first movie was released).

Bendis > Milllar, at least in 2016

Surprised they didn't use Secret War to bring back Black Goliath so they could kill him again.

Bendis > Millar, at least in 2016

Millar wrote Saviour and BIG DAVE and some good Superman comics and a couple of fun Flash comics, and that Curt Swan issue of Swamp Thing, and if I never re-read the first Ultimates I can keep believing it was good. Bendis sort-of drew a kind-of OK cod-noir eight-pager by Warren Ellis about 21 years ago.

Isnt that a bit like saying "if i never eat human faeces again i can keep believing it was good"?

Having said that, i remember enjoying some morrison-millar stuff like Aztek, but not sure who was mainly responsible for that

Is the Iron Man from the current series somebody who's shown any signs of being in favour of registering mutants? If not then they would surely have to change the premise quite a bit?
It has been years since I read Civil War so I could be misremembering. Also was the Iron Man there consistent with other portrayal of him previously. Only thing I'm aware of about him personally was he was a reformed alcoholic millionaire. &that might have changed by then.

Bendis > Milllar, at least in 2016

i'm not even much of a bendis fan but millar is awful. his only decent stuff was co-written with grant morrison (credited as such or otherwise)

The first Ultimates is a) great but b) obviously responsible for a lot of shite.

i have a vague suspicion that the first ultimates is an uncredited morrison co-write

here's a quote from a 2011 interview with morrison which i guess you could read either way on his involvement in the ultimates:

When he got the Authority book, his star started to rise, and at that point, he felt he was in my shadow and he had to get out, and the way to get out was to do this fairly uncool split. It was quite hard, I felt, but he had to make his own way, and he was in denial that I'd been there, because I saw a lot of his work had been plotted or devised, even dialogue suggestions were done by me right up until the point of The Ultimates.

Millar's Swamp Thing run is rumored to be ghosted by Morrison to some extent (beyond the first co-written arc, obvs), and that's easily my favorite Millar thing.

it's kinda telling that, with the exception of the ultimates, everything i've read from millar after his relationship with morrison dissolved has been godawful poisonous shit

DC is collecting Superman Adventures (the companion to the animated series), which is meant to feature some of Millar's better work iirc. I'd certainly think that working within that kind of framework would rein in some of his more exasperating tendencies.

Isnt that a bit like saying "if i never eat human faeces again i can keep believing it was good"?

Only if the first time I'd eaten human faeces, off someone else's plate, I'd found it fun and delicious, and bought my own serving and eaten it again and enjoyed the meal thoroughly, and it was only because I'd been hugely disappointed with the next course, and become massively alarmed by the chef's politics in other subsequent dishes, and was now only worried that I'd find the previously delicious human faeces were mere empty calories if I went back and ate them again.

If this metaphor works for you, then I guess yes maybe?

A+

FWIW, I think the politics in much of Millar's work are a troll, but he's not quite deft enough to pull off what I think he believes to be satire.

Now that I think about it, is Big Dave an example (the only example!) of Millar's sensibilities drawing something great out of Morrison, as opposed to Morrison's skills and style and ideas shaping something of Millar's for the better?

i've heard really good things about his superman adventures run but i've never had the chance to read it. it's possible, of course, that at least some of the good stuff there came from morrison rather than millar...

xpost

Yeah, absolutely - I thought the satire worked in Ultimates 1, but having seen how bad he is at it since, am afeart that I'd be exposed (to myself) as a dummy for letting him get away with it then.

FWIW, I think the politics in much of Millar's work are a troll, but he's not quite deft enough to pull off what I think he believes to be satire.

my perception is that millar thinks he's a lot smarter than he actually is tbh - his greatest 'satirical' line is 'you think the letter on my head stands for france?' which is pretty weak sauce

is that satirical

Wolverine: Enemy of the State, Wolverine: Old Man Logan and Marvel Knights Spider-Man by Millar are all very entertaining Marvel comics, much better than his creator-owned stuff (and - 'controversial opinion' - I think he generally 'gets' the Marvel Universe far more than Morrison).

But then what do I know, I absolutely loved Bendis' Avengers titles and think Hickman and Remender's issues have been disastrous in comparison.

xp yeah that's kinda my point

presumably it's an attempt to tie cap to the post-9/11 'freedom fries' / anti-french zeitgeist but it's fucking terrible

i really enjoyed it at the time but i was like, a teenager who thought that trolling fake gross 'non-PC' stuff was hilar

Ultimates mostly holds up when Millar isn't trying to be "funny" a la the France comment or pretty much anytime Hulk is speaking.

Oh yeah the Swamp Thing run is amazing - it doesn't really read like Morrison though?

The point of Ultimates Cap is pretty much just "Hey guys, you know that a 1940s soldier would be an astonishing asshole by modern standards, right?"

Like I don't think the intent was for anyone to consider Cap admirable in any way other than militarily.

Pretty much everyone in The Ultimates aside from maybe Thor is a creep.

Sometimes I pick up a story by Bendis and am pleasantly surprised for a minute or two until it falls into plot-by-numbers territory. The only books I'd really go back to were the ones done by a really distinctive artist.

I remember Ultimates 2 being quite exciting and full of good cliffhangers, but no desire to reread.

Bendis's comics are next-level-smug but I'm enjoying his Iron Man run (think it's the first thing of his I've actually *bought* rather than downloaded/borrowed).

I think Millar has recently got it into his head that he's an "ideas guy", which is humorous.

i wasn't even aware there were millar apologists

I really liked Millar's Authority but hated his Ultimate X-Men

There must be Millar apologists, someone's buying all his crap

his movie collaborations with Matthew Vaughan that reined in his worse qualities have been pretty good (the first Kick-Ass, Kingsman)

Kingsman concluded with an explicit POV shot of our hero fucking a princess in the ass
not sure which worse quality could have been reined in there

https://fourthage.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/wanted-issue-6.png

who's more obsessed with anal sex: mark millar or garth ennis?

well that was unpleasant

The thought of Bendis doing a comic with two sides fighting over a 'philosophical' disagreement is frightening.

'Uh
This is wrong
Can we talk about how wrong it is?'
'Well, sometimes what feels wrong is really what's right
Sometimes you have to fight for what seems like the dark side'
'No, I can't do that
Like
Where does that lead us
How will we then choose between what feel wrong and what is wrong?'
'Pass me the noodles, will ya?'

case in point - the Kingsman ending was vastly more preferable to the Wanted one

lol Frederik

...Millar and Hitch then moved over to Marvel Comics. Marvel had started the ‘ultimate universe’, which contained new versions of their characters, and Millar and Hitch created The Ultimates, a new version of The Avengers, which featured a Captain America who was a jingoistic psychopath, a probably-insane Thor and so forth. This new team was *very* heavily inspired by The Authority.

And finally Grant Morrison, a former friend of Mark Millar who had recently fallen out with him, stopped working for Marvel Comics and started working for DC again, where he wrote this Justice League story in which the Ultramarines (a superhero team he’d created many years earlier) are re-characterised as being very similar to the Ultimates (with some elements of other Marvel characters thrown in), before being comprehensively shown to be gullible, violent, simplistic thugs who very nearly allow the whole human race to be destroyed and have to be rescued by the Justice League.

The whole thing might just as well have been called “Mark Millar Smells Of Poo And Marvel Smell Of Wee”.

It's been more or less confirmed that Morrison ghosted at least part of Millar's Authority run, yes?

from here: http://deadshirt.net/2013/09/26/grant-morrisons-bad-bromance-an-alternate-reading-of-happy/

The source of their falling out is said to be related to Morrison ghostwriting an issue of Millar’s final arc on The Authority. At the time, Millar was incredibly ill, which also caused delays on his other titles, and to pitch in for his friend, Morrison banged out an issue, like it was no big deal. There are multiple sides to the thing, but Morrison’s unsolicited acknowledgment of this deed in an interview is thought to have incensed Millar, who must have thought it was a quiet gesture between friends, and not fodder for comic gossip. Throw in Millar’s mounting mainstream popularity and ability to get literally any project a hit, coinciding with Morrison’s frustrations in finding a footing in Hollywood, and whatever other backstage backstabbing occurred, and you have a feud.

sounds plausible

Old Man Logan

I still can't believe that Marvel editorial signed off on the whole Hulk angle to that story. There is definitely some good elements in that series, but man that whole think with the Hulk is pretty demented.

This sounds like a crap idea. The original Civil War was one of the worst Millar comics I've read, but OTOH Bendis' Marvel crossovers have been increasingly bad too, with Age of Ultron being the absolute nadir. The premise of that series was ridiculous (so the Ultron bots just somehow slaughtered Thor and Hulk and all the other big gun superheroes off-panel?), and the whole big plot point of the story didn't make any sense in the Marvel Universe.... Traveling back to the past and changing it won't fix your timeline, it'll just create a new alternate timeline, and both Logan and Sue should know this, because ''they've witnessed these alternate timelines themselves, several times''!

Also, Hickman's whole Avengers run which only ended last year was all about different Avengers factions fighting each other along the lines of pragmatism vs. idealism, i.e. it was the same argument the original Civil War had, and this Part II will most likely have too. Wouldn't it be nice for the heroes to fight villains for change, instead of each other?

Also, the way Captain Marvel has been written in the last 10+ years, a big part of her personality is that she's a soldier who believes in duty and following your orders and making a sacrifice for the greater good. So unless Iron Man will be taking the exact opposite stance in this series as in the original Civil War, it doesn't make sense for Carol to oppose her.

Tony Stark is still an evil asshole after the events of Axis, right?

I haven't read it, but he died in Secret Wars and Franklin recreated him alongside the rest of the universe, so presumably he wouldn't bring back Tony as evil?

he should have brought tony back as a plucky teen

yeah I just looked, seems he flipped back shortly before the universe blew up

after he was beaten down and caged up for a while

sucks that even if you know the basics of backstory for fifty years of continuity PLUS the movie storylines that they've mucked up the characters so much in just the past year that it's virtually impossible to make heads or tails of a contemporary story unless you follow at least three different books

imo a lot of the storylines are a hell of a lot easier to jump into than they were when I started reading Marvel comics, although that may not be saying much

pretty much every time they've retooled you get a refresher, with a lot of the #1 issues or reset points also being the start of a new writer/artist combination. a lot of themes and backstory are still there, but each part, whether it's a two year stretch or a six issue series, can be read reasonably well as a standalone

honestly I thought that Secret Wars got more confusing the more I paid attention to the auxiliary stories; ultimately it felt like only Thors had info in it that was directly relevant to the main Secret Wars book that wasn't also revealed in the main Secret Wars book

Thors was good, for sure

i'm reading all this stuff on marvel unlimited, so i'm a year behind but i have found something to enjoy in Thors, E is for Extinction, old man logan and i suppose future imperfect wasn't unreadable

Preview screening reviews are glowing. Lots of "best MCU movie yet"-level praise.

Wrong thread, this one's for the comic book crossover.

Rats!

Infamous Iron Man with Dr Doom in an Iron Man suit seems kind of dumb but could have potential if it was really weird

but it's going to be written by Bendis :(

So it's basically the same idea as Superior Spider-Man?

No, this one is infamous and Iron Man, while the other was superior and Spider-Man.

Also it presumably won't involve Dr. Doom inside Iron Man's body. Unless it does and then I imagine it will have to be a MAX title.

Wait, so Doctor Doom got married to Pepper Potts?

Don't be silly, Pepper Potts isn't going to get married again in this lifetime. Any romantic interest for her has to be unattainable or dead.

I was riffing on Otto Octavius getting married to and having rampant (well, as rampant as pensioners get) sex with Aunt May, which Peter experienced and totally lived through when they did the mind swap/meld thing.

Marvel sold more than 381,000 copies of Civil War II #1 to retailers in June, well ahead of Civil War #1 back in May 2006, which sold more than 260,000 copies in its first month. Granted, the scope of that hit was a surprise back then — the third issue outsold the first — and Marvel's summer event last year, Secret Wars, launched with 527,000 copies. On the other hand, that issue last year was a dollar cheaper. At $5.99, Civil War II #1 brought in more than $2.28 million at full retail, more than double what the second place title made.

Wait what, single issues can cost $5.99 now? Why does anyone buy those anymore, instead of just opting for the trade? (Or the digital option.)

Because some of us are stupid idiots, okay, Tuomas? I can't help who I am, but I at least hope that my existence can serve as a warning to others.

I don't buy floppies any more, but I do miss that weekly comic shop visit to pick up the new books, and I guess there are still some readers who can't let go of that experience.

I buy them monthly (well, when WicDiv comes out) - it's nice to do so but always eye-widening at the till (I'll have also picked up trades, because I'm like that).

Eye-widening, wallet shrinking