TS: Liberality For All vs. DMZ

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Or: do you want a dystopic future featuring cyber-enhanced right wing pundits, or do you want a dystopic future featuring a post-911 civil war state?

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 15:37 (twenty years ago)

Option 3 (a future where we're all slaves of GRODD) is not available for discussion.

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 15:39 (twenty years ago)

http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/3418/mymanhannity7ry.gif

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 16:03 (twenty years ago)

Billy Gibbons is VEEP?

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 16:09 (twenty years ago)

All the brothers be down with Republican kooks.

― chap who would dare to tell uninteresting celeb spotting stories (chap), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 18:30 (twenty years ago)

For true verisimilitude, the line should be "Is that my home skillet Hannity?"

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 18:41 (twenty years ago)

If Hannity is still on the air by the time Chelsea Clinton becomes president, then that is the future we deserve.

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 18:46 (twenty years ago)

What do you care? You're in a different country! Get back in your bread line!

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 18:53 (twenty years ago)

is that panel from LFA?
Because it seems to be, or at least work as, parody of rightwingingtude.

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 19:00 (twenty years ago)

Current Nightwangitude, or old skool Nightwangitude?

& yes, it's LFA.

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 19:06 (twenty years ago)

Is LFA lolling at Rightwang Roffles, or is it SINCERE?

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 19:08 (twenty years ago)

so i finally read LFA and it is most definitely the worst comic i have ever read (and i've read alt-weakly comix). so so so ineptly done. as for 'is this shit for realz?' i can't say - there's a couple of points, esp the letters page, that possibly tip it's hand that there's an 'ed anger' element but really it's so so bad (and i mean purely as a comic, nevermind the politix) i can't tell, to be honest i can't really tell what's going on in it half the time - incredibly incoherent.

― j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 16 November 2005 17:08 (twenty years ago)

Who wants to read an interview?

― David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 21:47 (twenty years ago)

From a certain msg bd which shall remain nameless:
In the last few days, since the thread on "Liberality for all" I have been pondering a number of seperate, yet to me, related issues affecting the comic industry in the USA. Among these are the long term trend of declining sales among mainstream comics, the ideologicall monopoly that liberals hold on the comics industry on the creative side, and the severe lack of credible, and more to the point admirable comics characters with a more conservative outlook. While I don't subscribe to the idea of a "vast leftwing conspiracy" in comics it is impossible to deny that most of those involved in the business of comics on the creative side are firmly and proudly liberal, and that while for the most part, politics comes up only tangentially in comics most Superheroes do seem to be of a liberal mindset.
I think that in the interest of honesty, we must at least examine the idea that perhaps the overwhelming presence of more liberal creators, when contrasted with the fact that the majority of Americans fall slightly more to the right of the political spectrum than left may be in some way related to the long term trend of declining sales. While I agree that it is possible this may in fact be irrelevant, (afterall the overwhelming liberality of Hollywood has not hurt thier growth that much if at all) I belive that as fans of an industry would could in some repects be accurately considered to be in a long decline demands that we at the least address it.
In other words is the overwhelmingly one sided ideology of the industry preventing it from the growth it is capable of, and if so, would releasing titles that represent a more conservative outlook increase the popularity of the industry?
I for one think it would. While as I said politics only relates in most comics, at the most, tangentially to storylines there are none the less subtle clues within many mainstream comics that as a conservative do annoy me and at times lessen my enjoyment of the issues I am reading. Obviously the more overt ond offensive issues cause an uproar, such as Mark Millars opening page in Wolverine 34 in which he blantently compared conservatives of today to the Nazi's of yesteryear, or Alan Moore, constant and unreleanting demonisation of Margeret Thatcher in the 80's. But even in the more subtle reference can rankle, such as in a recent issue when supergirl lamented that there was nothing to do on Paradise island because there was no crime or poverty. While I understood her lamenting that due to the lack of crime there was nothing for her to do, I did not understand why the reference to poverty was necessary. It seemed to imply either that
1 The root cause of crime is poverty
or
2 That it is part of a superheroes job to fight poverty, as if povertyy were an evil rather than the natural consequences of ones actions and decisions, just as affluence is. (from a conservative perspectivew)
Now I used these as examples only, I do not want to get into a discussion on the merits of either conservaitve or liberal thought. I do however want to discuss whether or not publishing titles which display such thought would be, in the opinions of the posters and creators of this board a net poistive for the industry as a whole.
Now I don't think that titles such as "Liberality for all" are the way to go either as its viewpoint is so extreme that it can, based on your perspective, be considered as either fanatical or subtly making fun of consrvative themselves. However I do belive that a center right Superhero ( who isn't a complete ******* as in the case of Guy Gardner's portrayal) would appeal to a large percentage of americans who may either purchase very few or no comics at all.
As another example, (and again as an example only) despite the fact that well over 80% of americans identify themselves as Chriistian, there are little to no characters whose words, or actions, Identify themselves to be of that persuasion. (I can think of some Zauriel springs to mind immediatly and in fact I somewhat consider him to be a copout. Given that hes an angel he can not really be condiered to have faith, as he has first hand knowledge) Just as many Americans of African descent, were uninterested in comics in the 50's and 60,s because they were unable to find characters that they could identify with, does the lack of clearly religous characters, prevent those to whom thier faith is a defining characteristic form finding characters they can identify with?
In point of fact the only title I have seen in which this trend is not self evident, and a title which does in fact buck this trend as well as the others I have mentioned on a regular basis, is JSA written by this boards own Geoff Johns. In point of fact JSA to me at least seems the single most inclusive title in mainstream comics, given that nearly every ethnicity and ideology when shown is treated with respect. However in some ways, his respectful and dare I say reverent treatment of religon in a recent arc serves in some ways to highlight the lack of such treatment in other titles.

So could the creation or emphasis of charcters as conservatives, open the industry to new readers?

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 30 November 2005 16:03 (twenty years ago)

oh man, so much good stuff in that. Let's begin!

Would the Punisher, J. Jonah Jameson, or Nick Fury count as conservative?

does the lack of clearly religous characters, prevent those to whom thier faith is a defining characteristic form finding characters they can identify with?

dude never read Daredevil or Punisher, did he? What about the early Marvel Knights Punisher were Frank Castle was armed with angelic automatics to go cap some demons?

Also, does "clearly religous" mean that they're quoting Scripture in every other panel like some Chick tract?

― kingfish hobo juckie (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 30 November 2005 16:16 (twenty years ago)

Etrigan to thread!

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 30 November 2005 16:18 (twenty years ago)

Hawkman = conservative. Green Arrow tells him so every time they meet.

That it is part of a superheroes job to fight poverty, as if povertyy were an evil rather than the natural consequences of ones actions and decisions, just as affluence is

― Mark C (Markco), Wednesday, 30 November 2005 16:23 (twenty years ago)

Aside from his whole anti-gun stance, Batman is archly conservative.

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 30 November 2005 16:24 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, wasn't Green Arrow tailored into being a far more liberal Batman?

And where does Cerebus/Sim fall into this?

― kingfish hobo juckie (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 30 November 2005 16:27 (twenty years ago)

One interesting thing that I find from those kinda posts(as well as that ILE sex ed thread from the last coupla days) is that they really do validate Lakoff's deconstruction & description of how the conservative mindset works, e.g. as Mark C quoted, seeing poor folks as deserving their fate b/c it's their own damn fault for being poor.

Huk, can you find any more of this stuff?

― kingfish hobo juckie (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 30 November 2005 16:31 (twenty years ago)

I can, the question is do I want to?

(the answer is OF COURSE)

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 30 November 2005 16:37 (twenty years ago)

this boards own Geoff Johns

How nameless, Huk?

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 30 November 2005 16:38 (twenty years ago)

Well, I think there's one thing we can all agree on: the primary reason that ALL of us buy the comics we do is b/c of the particular political slant that the writer of that issue brings.

― kingfish hobo juckie (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 30 November 2005 16:39 (twenty years ago)

Not so much a deconstruction as a fundamental tenet, in fairness.

JJJ = lefty as fuck (at least in Alias). He just hates heroes, and Spiderman in general. Probably quite Tuomasian on the subject:)

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 30 November 2005 16:44 (twenty years ago)

The same poster, further down the thread:

The simple fact is, for the vast majority of people on this planet, God is an accepted reality.
To me, to have every hero in the Marvel/DC universe, even those with religous origins (such as ragman) to not be affected, motivated, or even visibly belive in those beliefs, lessens the characters.
I agree that the characters relifgon should not be arbitraily decided, but given his background, upbringing, and history, I think its a safe bet that Superman is some sort of protestant, even if n on practising.
Similarly Ragman who based on his origins is definitvely jewish has never to my knowledge gone to a synagogue, (he very well could have I am not terribly familiar with his character)
In addition I think that the inclusion of a characters religon and the issues it brings up, can definately enrich a character. As an example Nightcrawler's catholic (I think its catholic) has IMO at least given him more of a personality.

Inb addition there are many characters who in fact are religous, its just none of them are mainstream religous. We get wiccans, druids, pagans, etc. But very few Christians, jews or muslims, even the buddhists are better represented in comics than the Big three.

xpost, no way!

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 30 November 2005 16:44 (twenty years ago)

The original poster suggested that no one respond to this post:
I wouldn't want to see a superhero with conservative views in the books I'm reading. I think conservatism is diametrically opposed to what a superhero would believe in. Imagine Superman flying around thinking that these poor people are "lazy" and they deserve what they are getting. Imagine Superheroes thinking they are the morally chosen and God shines on them over all others while their elected officials line their pockets with money and take rights from the people and hand them to the big corporations. Thats why you won't see much of it in comics.

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 30 November 2005 16:49 (twenty years ago)

wot, no commenting on the jewish aspects of The Heckler?

also, his take on Ragman is pretty revealing. The only way that a religious character can be TRULY religious is to be shown at temple every coupla issues(i.e. "attends regularly"). The aspects of the comic about all the jewish folks & rabbis than Ragman hung out with, talking about matters spiritual or not, don't matter shit.

Works similarly to a central tenet of the "Left Behind" crowd, that only a few select folks are Truly Christian.

― kingfish hobo juckie (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 30 November 2005 17:02 (twenty years ago)

As an example Nightcrawler's catholic (I think its catholic) has IMO at least given him more of a personality.

Eh, more like it destroyed his original characterization! He was a lot more fun as a happy-go-lucky freak than as an angsty troubled soul always running off to talk to his priest about the religious implications of fighting the Beyonder.

― Chris F. (servoret), Thursday, 1 December 2005 01:29 (twenty years ago)

Making comics characters religious is a bad idea anyway. Different universes I know, but what happens if Nightcrawler, the staunch Catholic, bumps into Zauriel, an actual angel? The problem of superheroes (and superhero inventors) transforming society out of recognition is hard enough to paper over, but how are traditional religions supposed to remain unchanged when angels, demons, and apocalyptic visitations are everywhere? Morrison's mutant wannabe-s would only be the beginning - you'd have the Church of the Kryptonian, the Anti-lifarians...

― Ray (Ray), Thursday, 1 December 2005 13:35 (twenty years ago)

there was a story in Birds of Prey where they uncover a weird cult that worships superheroes.

also what about the spectre - hello, god's vengeance strolling the earth in an old testament stylee!

― Mark C (Markco), Thursday, 1 December 2005 14:49 (twenty years ago)

And what about when Green Lantern and Green Arrow met Jesus?

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Thursday, 1 December 2005 14:53 (twenty years ago)

ihttp://www.socalcomics.com/gl89vf.jpg

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Thursday, 1 December 2005 14:57 (twenty years ago)

Kind of hard to be Jewish after that, isn't it? And how would all the Hindus square their religion with _God's_ vengeance walking the earth?
Any seriously religious superheroes in that universe can only highlight the absurdities...

― Ray (Ray), Thursday, 1 December 2005 16:17 (twenty years ago)

I think I actually read somewhere that Hal Jordan (and the rest of the Jordan family, I suppose) is Jewish.

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Thursday, 1 December 2005 16:24 (twenty years ago)

I wonder how that guy feels when angels and demons and Lucifer show up in Hellblazer?

Huk, any more stuff?

― kingfish hobo juckie (kingfish 2.0), Thursday, 1 December 2005 20:49 (twenty years ago)

Nope, I think conversation has largely shift to whether or not Power Girl's fluctuatingly gigantic bosom is the result of her interdimensional origins.

Oh wait, here's the original poster again:

Really I guess what bugs me are the unspoken assumptions in Comics.
Businessmen are bad, Politicans are inherantly bad, Soldiers are rarely good, Religon is rarely positive, Poverty is evil.
Capital punishment is non existant, republicans are very bad, bankers are bad, writers, artists, lawyers, teachers, and swocial workers are inherantly good, the rivch are greedy and evil while the poor are noble and good, etc.

Like I said, it whay I stopped reading hellblazer and in fact why IU no longer read anything By Alan Moore. As good of a writer as he is, as talented as he is, I know that if I read anything he does, I am going to be beat over the head with the message that conservatives are evil small minded peole who are ruining the world and sending it to hell.
And I am not paying good money to get insulted.

Maybe he's never heard of CAPTAIN AMERICA!!!

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Friday, 2 December 2005 14:40 (twenty years ago)

But I can kind of see his point.
I'm sure a guy like that could get insulted for free any day...

― Ray (Ray), Friday, 2 December 2005 16:01 (twenty years ago)

Soldiers are rarely good

again, not a big Nick Fury fan, huh?

or The Nam, or GI Joe, etc...

Can anybody find the C&H strip where Hobbes mentions something about "upstanding moral characters rarely make for interesting stories"?

I wonder what this guy's take is on the Transformers/GI Joe crossover set in WWII.

― kingfish hobo juckie (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 2 December 2005 16:04 (twenty years ago)

Was there a War Wheel involved?

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Friday, 2 December 2005 16:06 (twenty years ago)

what an absurd, radical leftist idea that "poverty is evil"!!

― s1ocki (slutsky), Friday, 2 December 2005 16:30 (twenty years ago)

a recent issue when supergirl lamented that there was nothing to do on Paradise island because there was no crime or poverty. While I understood her lamenting that due to the lack of crime there was nothing for her to do, I did not understand why the reference to poverty was necessary. It seemed to imply either that
1 The root cause of crime is poverty
or
2 That it is part of a superheroes job to fight poverty, as if povertyy were an evil rather than the natural consequences of ones actions and decisions, just as affluence is.

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Friday, 2 December 2005 16:36 (twenty years ago)

So he's a fundie who also believes in karma and reincarnation?

― Chris F. (servoret), Friday, 2 December 2005 19:37 (twenty years ago)

He's about to get his CHRISTmas wish!
http://www.newsarama.com/general/AlphaOmega/AOComics.htm

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Monday, 5 December 2005 20:05 (twenty years ago)

There is a constant struggle between religion and science to prove that their theories about our universal origins are correct. Science is constantly being refuted and corrected, while religion can never be proven, at least not until you die. Here at Alpha-Omega Comics Inc., we have eliminated the debate by combining these two combative theologies in a way no one has attempted before, and in doing so, we provide an acceptable interpretation of exactly how events may have transpired.

oh wow. and they go on for a while...

― kingfish crab trampycakes (kingfish 2.0), Monday, 5 December 2005 20:17 (twenty years ago)

? For Alpha-Omega President James Vinson, the larger idea of a universe that is supported by Christian scripture is something that he has been developing for some

As opposed to the one we actually live in...

― Stone Monkey (Stone Monkey), Tuesday, 6 December 2005 15:03 (twenty years ago)

eight years pass...

A generally non-comic reading friend strongly recommended DMZ to me last night. Should I trust her?

― I wish to incorporate disco into my small business (chap), Thursday, 13 February 2014 14:13 (twelve years ago)

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