I was posting this when the thread was locked--
Hey dudes, why all the glum faces? Here, elephant ears and root beer for everyone!
Okay - first of all, I hope it's clear that I'm not a hater. I spent my childhood on Avenger West Coast (Byrne era, making me one of the only people on planet Earth able to understand the recent Busiek JLA crossover). At the same time, I don't see what's farfetched or inconsistant about what Tuomas is saying. I get the impression that people are more offended by the impropriety of the topic here (like showing up at an NRA meeting with a gun control petition). It's like there are enough "Comics aren't realy books!" editorials in the world that we don't need it here. It doesn't seem that people are so riled up by Tuomas's overall argument, but offended because they're feel like they're being personally accused of being sexist jerks. My impression is that if Huk said more or less the same arguments, it'd be accepted w/o all this knuckle-cracking, because it would be seen as an internal rather than a condescendingly external critique. Am I wrong?
I mean, I remember reading another thread where someone said Jim Lee got him through puberty and I remember reading that and thinking "Damn straight!" There was a Jeph Loeb interview about Hush, where he said "Jim Lee sure can draw the wimminfolk" and talked about how he wrote the plot to emphasize that. Tuomas just seems to be recognizing this obvious fact and saying (1) the exagerrated proportions are sexist; (2) even if the proportions weren't sexist, their eroticized poses would be. I don't see why either of these aren't true. How is it that duplicating images from pornos is not sexist? (Especially since I'm assuming the typical superhero plot doesn't involve a lot of languid posing.) That seems more like a deal-sealing for me. Anyways, a lot of back and forth seems to be more about the anti-Tuomas folk (i.e., everyone) pointing out exceptions. It might be more useful for Tuomas not to rebutt those exceptions but instead to limit his critique--say, accurate as far as Image comics go, but inaccurate when it comes to, say, Top Ten?
― kenchen, Thursday, 9 February 2006 22:08 (nineteen years ago)
I locked the thread because it was quickly headed nowhere, if it hadn't already gotten there.
I'll probably unlock it later so that hopefully, with more measured interpretations and readings, we can address the issues in an intellectually honest manner, but until then, we ought to just appreciate that we are inching towards the finish of a certain poll.
― c(''c) (Leee), Thursday, 9 February 2006 22:15 (nineteen years ago)
And by "nowhere," I meant that arguments were not advancing towards any maternal phallic object but instead remained a concatenation of empty, signifying desire and lack.
― c(''c) (Leee), Thursday, 9 February 2006 22:16 (nineteen years ago)
Yeah, I should've done that instead of being a buttass on the thread - thanks, Lee.
― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 9 February 2006 22:18 (nineteen years ago)
Tho I just checked the thread controls, and I'm not sure how to lock a thread. Any chance there's room in the ILC budget for a How To Admin ILX course?
― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 9 February 2006 22:23 (nineteen years ago)
i would just like to note that tuomas's question "er, can't they draw still the breasts smaller?" is the funniest thing i've ever seen posted on this board.
― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Thursday, 9 February 2006 22:28 (nineteen years ago)
They should be pretty obvious, although now I look on I Love Cooking it seems to come from submitting the Message ID and
something magical happening afterwards.
I'm sorry for anything I did in perpetuating argument on that thread as well, but broad-brush accusations get my goat.
― aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Thursday, 9 February 2006 22:37 (nineteen years ago)
But Jim Lee can't draw
anything, let alone attractive women!
I'm pasting this here to retrieve later when the thread gets unlocked:
Jay (Hispanic) is he?! I s'pose he totally could be but the pink/unshaded skin, not-obviously-non-Anglo name and wealthy middle-class upbringing never stood as signifiers to me. Bagge's racist stereotyping of Hispanics usually means shading or brown skin and a bumfluff moustache...
What makes Frank Cho's New Avengers T&A and Liberty Meadows not?
All of Cho's work is T&A, simple.
(bad cliched) Superhero art isn't eroticised, it's infantilised. How many artists draw big tits that look hot versus how many artists draw big tits that look like globes embedded in barrels? The Hernandez brothers draw attractive women with a whole range of body types, and they aren't objectifying them inna T&A stylee - the reader's attraction to the character is going to be based on the character, not just the isolated "hey how does my ass look in this jeans roommate?" panel. Luba has always been a massive strawwoman on this front, for eg, yes she has massive breasts, but they aren't meant to be attractive or perv material, by the time she's thirty her face is haggard and the tits are hanging to her stomach.
― kit brash (kit brash), Friday, 10 February 2006 01:39 (nineteen years ago)