which Grant Mozzer JLA trade should I start with?

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I own ZERO Grant Morrison comic books. I feel like his Doom Patrol stuff would be a bit much for me, as I'm not sure I would enjoy his experimentalism on a super-team that I'm very attached to…(and no, I never fooled with the Byrne run, and I know that Arnold Drake rates GM's version highly).

So I wanna start with a JLA trade. I've seen a bunch…but y'know, the art in a couple I've broused kinda bugs me out…

so don't disappoint me, nerdlingers…which should it be?

― veronica moser (veronica moser), Thursday, 9 November 2006 01:22 (nineteen years ago)

Well Rock of Ages is the most Morrisonesque, what with its hypercompression and mindfucking cosmicness. The first two are gentler and slightly more trad, so I'd probably just start with the first (New World Order), which is pretty solid. The art will likely bug you out in any of them.

Doom Patrol is a lot better, mind.

― chap who would dare to welcome our new stingray masters (chap), Thursday, 9 November 2006 01:38 (nineteen years ago)

EARTH 2

― chaki (chaki), Thursday, 9 November 2006 01:45 (nineteen years ago)

I didn't think Earth 2 was all that, except for for the art.

― chap who would dare to welcome our new stingray masters (chap), Thursday, 9 November 2006 01:49 (nineteen years ago)

what I mean by "bugs me out" is that the art in one— I think the artist is Howard Dell— is unattractive.

― veronica moser (veronica moser), Thursday, 9 November 2006 02:03 (nineteen years ago)

earth 2 is great.

― chaki (chaki), Thursday, 9 November 2006 02:23 (nineteen years ago)

agreed. think it is way better than any of his other jla stuff.

― s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 9 November 2006 02:51 (nineteen years ago)

I probably shouldn't be listened to, I'm a bit agnostic about GM's work post-97 or so.

― chap who would dare to welcome our new stingray masters (chap), Thursday, 9 November 2006 02:56 (nineteen years ago)

Earth 2 is great - Frank Quitely is the artist. The artist on the regular series (Howard Porter; John Dell inking) is an acquired taste, but (for my money) worth dealing with for the super goodness in the stories.

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 9 November 2006 03:09 (nineteen years ago)

i'm probably the only one who'll suggest it but new world order is very simple, solid, straightforward. it definitely lacks the experimentalism you're looking for (in which case i'll echo earth 2 sentiments), but as a gateway to his jla stuff it's very effective and well as being good comics.

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 9 November 2006 04:42 (nineteen years ago)

New World Order is pretty good (though I don't love the art), and has one of the greatest Batman moments ever. (Without giving anything away: it's the scene where we realize that Batman is not somebody you ever want to fuck with, because even though he doesn't have any powers as such, he is the most resourceful person in the world.)

If you're starting with G.Mo and want some non-experimental, non-freakouty, super-fun superhero action, though, All-Star Superman is a total treat.

And I think his Doom Patrol was faithful to the spirit rather than the letter of the Arnold Drake run, particularly in noticing that these are characters who are nominally "superheroes" because there is something terribly wrong with their bodies.

― Douglas (Douglas), Thursday, 9 November 2006 05:37 (nineteen years ago)

what about Strength In Numbers?

― veronica moser (veronica moser), Thursday, 9 November 2006 13:00 (nineteen years ago)

also earth 2 features real superman and not terrible electric blue superman.

― s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 9 November 2006 13:50 (nineteen years ago)

yeah, what was the reason for Electric Blue Superman?

― veronica moser (veronica moser), Thursday, 9 November 2006 14:11 (nineteen years ago)

That's what was happening in the Superbooks.

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 9 November 2006 14:19 (nineteen years ago)

right, but what was the in-continuity reason for it? Did it have something to do with him dying and shit? Otherwise, I assume that DC decided that they must do one of their periodic "we must change everything" song and dances…

― veronica moser (veronica moser), Thursday, 9 November 2006 14:43 (nineteen years ago)

Start with the first trade, New World Order, and go all the way through. They're all excellent, and excellent enough to ignore the art (which I actually had no problem with. I kind of like its clunkiness). The Mark Waid fill-ins can be ignored, though.

You are the crazy if you don't read his Doom Patrol run however. It's quite accessible too.

― Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Thursday, 9 November 2006 15:29 (nineteen years ago)

Moser, I don't think anyone here will cop to knowing exactly why Superman went Blue (& Red).

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 9 November 2006 15:31 (nineteen years ago)

It wasn't the dying, that gave him the SuperMullet. It was some energy shit, thankfully I have repurposed the bit of my brain that actually knew.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 9 November 2006 16:35 (nineteen years ago)

I'm proud to say I also forgot how he became Electro Superman, although ashamed to admit I did read it at the time... uh.. what was the question again?
Oh yeah, that JLA stuff? I actually liked all the Morrison stuff (crisis times 5 was a bit meh), and the Porter artwork wasn't that bad really. I've lent New World Order to a couple of guys who are occasional comic readers, and it fared pretty well all round...

― Eyemelt (Eyemelt), Thursday, 9 November 2006 16:56 (nineteen years ago)

Agreed w/ the consensus so far, that GM's first two volumes are top notch meat-and-potatoes superspandex hijinx. However, I don't think there's any crucial grand narrative arc that runs between the volumes that you have to read them in sequential order (though he does include some character stuff).

― c('°c) (Leee), Thursday, 9 November 2006 17:24 (nineteen years ago)

There's no crucial grand arc, but the character stuff set up in the first trade (specifically the Wally/Kyle relationship) has a nice pay-off at the end. Besides, isn't "top notch meat-and-potatoes superspandex hijinx" what comics are about?

― Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Thursday, 9 November 2006 17:34 (nineteen years ago)

I read Rock of Ages first, and any gaps in my understanding of it were down to the convoluted storytelling rather than events in the previous volumes.

― chap who would dare to welcome our new stingray masters (chap), Thursday, 9 November 2006 17:43 (nineteen years ago)

I don't think it's quite a narrative arc, but World War III should definitely be last, all the stuff he's been doing in the other volumes ends up there.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 9 November 2006 18:11 (nineteen years ago)

isn't "top notch meat-and-potatoes superspandex hijinx" what comics are about

Yes! But Rock of Ages has bigger ambitions than meat n potatoes and could better be described as Kobe steak braised in hollandaise with a side of monkey brains.

WWIII should be the last because it's the last volume (IIRC) and what Andrew stated -- I just wanted to note that volume-to-volume continuity isn't a strict principle governing reading order.

― c('°c) (Leee), Thursday, 9 November 2006 18:35 (nineteen years ago)

skipping the Waid issues is U&K. just tear them out of the books.

― occasional mongrel (kit brash), Thursday, 9 November 2006 21:27 (nineteen years ago)

ha!

― denim solemnity (alicereed), Thursday, 9 November 2006 23:22 (nineteen years ago)

Hell yes.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 10 November 2006 00:17 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, read them in order, as they do develop if only in the sense that a song with the volume dial progressively turned up gets also develops.

I think there are two camps of reactions to GM's superhero comics: (1) ex-fans of superhero comics or non-superhero-reading fans of GM, who read his comics with an eye for the experimentation and weird ideas and aren't terribly loyal to the classic iconography; and (2) diehard comic fans who like GM because he's revitalizing the mainstream and creating new properties, but also distrust him because of what they see as his inability to restrain himself or respect traditional properties. These two groups can have very strange conversations as they like him for totally opposite reasons. This thread demonstrates it too--Rock of the Ages is for people in camp 1 (though his Batman is the best Batman) and New World Order and Earth 2 are for those in camp 2. I think what's special about JLA is that for the most part it is very straight-up in a good way--in a way that his brilliant New X-Men run isn't. That is, I think you could read JLA and maybe not like Rock of the Ages, but otherwise think of it as a great run, but many traditional Bryne-loving x-fans (like Byrne!) might see New X-Men as sacriligious.

― ASDF (ASDFASDF), Tuesday, 14 November 2006 20:36 (nineteen years ago)

Within the "primarily superhero fan" camp, I'm in sort of an interesting place with GM because I'm an X-Men fan and couldn't give two shits about the Justice League...and yet, oddly, enjoyed both runs to about the same extent. Some really strong stories in both, some that didn't quite take off, and a couple of duds. Never got what the deal was with Fantomex in X-Men or with the angel dude in JLA, and in the case of JLA I really got burnt out on the number of times he was willing to do the same basic plot arc. I can't remember specific stories, but at some point I completely checked out on all the time-travel, Darkseid, whatever stuff. Didn't understand it, didn't really care. Same for "Here Comes Tomorrow."

I think the X-Men run is stronger just because the cast is smaller, and used as something other than just a source of novel powers (used largely as deus ex machina) to solve the insane jams the JLA get stuck in. As over-the-top goofy as X-Men got in places, you got the sense that GM actually wanted to be writing these specific characters. In JLA they're interchangable. Although, now that I think on it, this is partially because of editorial interference from other titles. Wonder Woman keeps coming and going with no explanation, Superman's blue, then he's not...JLA is barely driving its own plane half the time.

As for the actual question, I say read 'em in order. I did and I mostly enjoyed it, even the fill-ins. (The art is pretty much lousy straight through, though. At least with X-Men he got decent pencils sometimes...)

― Doctor Casino (Doctor Casino), Tuesday, 14 November 2006 22:54 (nineteen years ago)

well, I'm sold, fellas. I got the first four, and I've read NWO and am in the middle of American Dreams. Apart from the grand "end of world" pageantry, I like the characterization—which is what I like about comics (and everything else) best anyway.

I'm looking forward to the mindfucky ones. But I gotta say that it seems that GMo seems to succeed by doing all the stuff AMo would do if he didn't hate the Big Two and get distracted with From Hell. Which is Moore's view, right? Does Morrison just "play well with others" better than Moore? Is he like the Clash to Moore's Pistols?

― veronica moser (veronica moser), Monday, 20 November 2006 01:30 (nineteen years ago)

if he didn't hate the Big Two and get distracted with From Hell. Which is Moore's view, right?

wha?

― occasional mongrel (kit brash), Monday, 20 November 2006 09:14 (nineteen years ago)

If that is Moore's view, then he's got a serious case of sour grapes. He wrote his own Superman stories after he quit DC, and some of them are funny as well as clever, but none of them, for me, hold a candle to Morrison's Superman from JLA (let alone the All-Star Superman). I think Morrison is (dodgy music analogy ahead) pop to Moore's rock. Sometimes really pompous and overelaborate pop, but meant to be enjoyed, without much of an eye on His Position In History.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 20 November 2006 10:45 (nineteen years ago)

Or in short, he's the Undertones, and thus wins.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 20 November 2006 10:45 (nineteen years ago)

hmmm, well, he is a wanker...

(oh, come on, someone had to do it)

― Ray (Ray), Monday, 20 November 2006 12:21 (nineteen years ago)

Sometimes really pompous and overelaborate pop

He's 'The Call' by The Backstreet Boys?

― chap who would dare to welcome our new stingray masters (chap), Monday, 20 November 2006 12:28 (nineteen years ago)

Sped up and used as the middle eight to N'Sync's 'Pop', yes.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 20 November 2006 12:49 (nineteen years ago)

so "tom strong" fer example isn't pop?? that stuff is more candy-coated and fun to read than ANYTHING gmoz has ever done

― s1ocki (slutsky), Monday, 20 November 2006 17:03 (nineteen years ago)

i don't really think the analogy holds at all but if we're going to use it shouldn't it be the other way around? how is seven soldiers anything but total prog rock?

― s1ocki (slutsky), Monday, 20 November 2006 17:03 (nineteen years ago)

"Tom Strong" is the most boring Moore EVER - slavish adherence to dull old pulp tropes = it's folk music, or blues!

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 20 November 2006 17:04 (nineteen years ago)

NB I don't think it's a good analogy either!

But at the time I remember praising GMo's JLA as "comics techno" in upmarket zine The Edinburgh Review of all places. I can't remember exactly what prompted this judgement - something about how it emphasised the beat (thrill-powered pacing and action) over 'musicality' aka characterisation, which JLA was widely criticised as lacking.

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 20 November 2006 17:06 (nineteen years ago)

Tom Strong is far too "do you see what we've done there?" - I like it but have always looked askance at people who have it as their token Superhero comic.

7 Soldiers = Bandaid, innit. If we want prog rock, then we need something that's too long because "The themes really needed exploring, man". Promethea, for example, has a touch of the "We decided that it wouldn't really be fair to release it as anything except a triple album" - including multidimensional gatefold sleeve!

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 20 November 2006 17:19 (nineteen years ago)

yeah promethea is a little prog.

but 7 soldiers is pretty long too! and so high-concept!

tom strong is... the strokes?

― s1ocki (slutsky), Monday, 20 November 2006 17:27 (nineteen years ago)

well that killed that discussion.

― s1ocki (slutsky), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 17:52 (nineteen years ago)

slavish adherence to dull old pulp tropes

But it takes, like, four issues for him to start messing about until they're almost unrecognizable! I don't think excessive reverence is something you can accuse "Tom Strong" of, really. It'd be like a Folk song that gets turned into Electro-Pop halfway through (oh god, that would make him Momus wouldn't it?)

The closest I could ever come to seeing Grant Morrison as Pop would be if you meant, like, The Pet Shop Boys. But come on, the whacked-out mysticism, the constant highbrow lit namedropping, the hypercompression, the breaking of fourth walls and sense of plots that could go *anywhere*...he easily has just as many ambitious "Rock" traits as Moore has, and I'd argue that Moore's most accesible stuff is easier to digest than Morrison's.

(nb I am not dissing Morrison *or* Pop, hope the post doesn't sound that way)

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 18:07 (nineteen years ago)

If you're using "rock" and "ambitious" as synonyms, we're definitely having different discussions :)

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 18:20 (nineteen years ago)

man am i the only ilxor that love promethea, every single bit of it esp the stuff ppl apparently hate??? c'mon ppl - BROADEN YR MINDS. RIDE THE SNAKE.

― j blount (papa la bas), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 18:54 (nineteen years ago)

WEll, I was thinking Rock as wanting to make BIG STATEMENTS about SOCIETY and bring CATHARSIS to its audience, while Pop wants to make good tunes that you can dance to - of course this is stereotypes and fails to take into account dozens of acts both Rock and Pop, but I'd still say that yer average Rock musician is likely to be more convinced that what he's doing is *important* than yer average pop musician.

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 18:55 (nineteen years ago)

Also, is there even any doubt that Grant Morrison (and Moore too, of course) would be showing up continually on comic equivalents to "Mojo" and "Uncut" year end lists? And not in a Lilly Allen way either, more like new Dylan album standby.

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 19:02 (nineteen years ago)

and for the record i think i love tom strong bcz it is basically comics' indiana jones

― s1ocki (slutsky), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 19:13 (nineteen years ago)

I'm with you on Promethea, Blount. I had a cynical moment of visualizing Moore saying "now to riff on cosm/myth-ology and maximize payday for it!" But I don't care, the result is beautiful and fun.

― Joe Isuzu's Petals (Rock Hardy), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 19:23 (nineteen years ago)

No, I love Promethea, especially the bits everyone hates, I'm a sucker for needless cleverness.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 19:24 (nineteen years ago)

s10cki do you have vol. 2 of Tom Strongo?

― c('°c) (Leee), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 19:48 (nineteen years ago)

I love the bits of Promethea that everyone doesn't hate. I dislike the bits everyone hates.

― chap who would dare to welcome our new stingray masters (chap), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 19:51 (nineteen years ago)

leee: yes

― s1ocki (slutsky), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 19:53 (nineteen years ago)

The important question: Alan Moore/Grant Morrison -- who has better jokes?

― Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 19:54 (nineteen years ago)

First answer: neither. 2nd: GM.

― Joe Isuzu's Petals (Rock Hardy), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 20:29 (nineteen years ago)

Moore's done more actual comedy comics, and great though the first two Big Daves were, the whole run is easily trumped by Bojeffries and Jack B. Quick. In non-comedy strips, Moore's side-gags are definitely more LOLly and Morrison's more arch.

― occasional mongrel (kit brash), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 21:08 (nineteen years ago)

"March Of The Sinister Ducks"!!!

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 21:24 (nineteen years ago)

moore makes some pretty corny (in a bad way) jokes

― s1ocki (slutsky), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 21:24 (nineteen years ago)

but he does bring the funny sometimes--i find "king solomon" to be a pretty hilarious character

― s1ocki (slutsky), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 21:25 (nineteen years ago)

DR And Quinch is funny. Or was when I was 11, which is all I need really.

But it takes, like, four issues for him to start messing about until they're almost unrecognizable!

Ah, well, I gave up very early - like 3 or 4 issues in.

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 22:10 (nineteen years ago)

you should pick it up again--each ish (or sub-story within an ish) tends to run with a great amusing story idea for just about the right amount of time and then it's on to the next thing. "slavish devotion" i would really disagree with. more like "inspired fucking around"

― s1ocki (slutsky), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 03:55 (nineteen years ago)

I love Promethea too, especially the preachy bits, and that's not sarcasm. And although Moore's not always great at bringing Teh Funny (First American, I am talking to you), he's written some of the funniest comics I know--The Bojeffries Saga, in particular, is responsible for a few lines that had me on the floor (e.g. the bit with the vegan vampire banging on a health food store's door a bit before daybreak, demanding "THHOY BLUTT!!" "Oh, soy blood, I understand that's very good in vegan black puddings...").

― Douglas (Douglas), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 04:12 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, I had forgotten the Bojeffries stories when I posted earlier, which I shouldn't have because I was just rereading the sex w/ginda story last week.

― Joe Isuzu's Petals (Rock Hardy), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 05:18 (nineteen years ago)

kit this was all a mystery to me before our pint.

― denim solemnity (alicereed), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 08:27 (nineteen years ago)

if I find my old lending photocopies of Big Dave 1 & 2 at my mum's sometime I will lend!

― occasional mongrel (kit brash), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 09:28 (nineteen years ago)

one month passes...

hey fellas…got the final two GM JLA trades…will give impressions when I have a moment…

Good to have ILC back!

― veronica moser (veronica moser), Thursday, 4 January 2007 19:23 (nineteen years ago)

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