Well, you can't even draw!

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Ok, in music criticism, this is a pretty common complaint - rock critics are full of shit, they only really focus on the lyrics and mystique/image because they can't actually play an instrument or know any music theory at all so they're totally unable to make actual formal analyses of what's going on in the music itself etc. etc. etc. Of course lots of people think that's bullshit, many others would say that there's a kernel of truth in there but wouldn't see it quite as stridently, and so on. But the question does come up, all the time.

I don't see the same question popping up for comics, at all. Granted a big part of that is that comics criticism isn't nearly as established, and a long long way from the unending self-referentiality that you get in music crit these days. But I do wonder - I mean, I've written comics reviews, at the lowest level I grant you (uni paper and some websites), but I've hardly ever even mentioned the art much, and have never been called on it. I don't think I could even muster the half-arsed impressionistic style that I use to describe music (full disclosure: nah, I don't play an instrument nor do I know much music theory, yes I write about music "for a living") for comics, really - all I can muster most of the time is saying that it looks very clean or gritty or gorgeous or retarded.

I'm interested in people's opinions here - how much of an arts background do you have? If you review comics, d'ya use same background much? And how interested would you be in formalist readings of comics that treat the art, if not as superior, at least as equal to the plot?

Daniel_Rf, Wednesday, 21 February 2007 20:19 (eighteen years ago)

I don't "review" comics, outside of this place (& it'd be an act of unparalleled generosity to call what I do here "reviewing"), but in terms of writing about comics or CDs or whatever, I'm not sure it's really a matter of knowing about The Art of writing / drawing / musical theory as much as knowing what you know & what you don't know, & being honest. & as far as being interested in formalist readings that emphasize the art over the plot - depends totally on the book. Something like Frank is totally different from something like Watchmen, &c.

Of course, I'm an odd duck, because I enjoy reading criticism more for the writer's panache than what they're thinking - the only time I tend to notice bullshit arguments is when the writing's shitty (&, sometimes, I can't see the strength of the arguments for the shitty writing).

David R., Wednesday, 21 February 2007 21:05 (eighteen years ago)

Daver OTM. If you extend your art/music crit analogy to textual narrative, you don't often see reviewers mentioning formal analepsis or something, though knowing what the fancy words mean can help reduce what you do or don't like about a comic to reader-friendly terms.

Leee, Wednesday, 21 February 2007 21:16 (eighteen years ago)

Also, I imagine the reason that the questions that are raised about music crit being left unraised about comic crit is because (like you said) comic crit's still unestablished. It seems corny to say something like, "The comic world doesn't yet have its Creem or Rolling Stone or Meltzer or Bangs," but at some level I think it's true - there hasn't been any sort of critical comic zeitgeist (that I know of) where the interest in the medium dovetailed with the work being produced and the people writing about it. Or, if this actually DID happen, it came & went. Of course, one BIG difference - music's communal; comics ain't.

Of course, the movement that those mags & dudes were part of lead to the stodgy self-referential anti-communal shut-in crit-culture that (depending on where you look) runs rampant today. &, from what I've seen of the comic blogosphere in-crowd, those tentpoles have already been set up.

David R., Wednesday, 21 February 2007 21:29 (eighteen years ago)

Actually I think it does help - my far-too-occasional jaw-jaws on The State Of Comics with Al in the pub have definitely been improved by Al's actual hands-on experience of comics scripting: he's able to spot and criticise little details that I would usually miss, like particularly elegant examples of necessary exposition. It's not quite at the "yeah the song sucks but man the guy's picking is great" level yet tho!

(Wow the text in these new answer boxes is TINY)

See also that amazing link from a few months back to Toth laying into Steve Rude. There was a certain amount of wood/trees stuff going on but the specific details of the criticism of storytelling were simply not the stuff you'd generally think through if you didn't actually produce comics.

When I used to read comics mags though I often got the idea that "storytelling" was this enormous bluffword usually meaning "I can't quite put my finger on what I do or don't like, but I know I like it".

Groke, Thursday, 22 February 2007 10:54 (eighteen years ago)

I believe what you're refering to comes more from the fact that those are made for people who don't make comics. Most readers of comics magazines don't care about a "particularly elegant examples of necessary exposition" just like readers of most music magazines don't really care if 'the guy's picking is great" : they want to know if the song sucks.
And most of the time, if you get say one issue of the comics journal, it'll be filled with reviews of dozens of comics you'll never read anyway, so the review should focus on the mystique & what the comic is about, some things you can enjoy even if you'll never read the comic in question, rather than the use of a certain type of brush.
All that being said, there are ways to talk about the art, the layout or the panel sequencing without being to techincal, and some critics try to use those ways (at least I do). And every would-be comics critic should at least have read McCloud's books, Eisner's & some others.

2goldfish, Thursday, 22 February 2007 15:10 (eighteen years ago)

My entirely selfish problem w/McCloud's first book on comics was that section where he starts defining what is and isn't a comic, and at the time I was helping Al make comics that were excluded from the definition, so I thought, "Well, this definition basically doesn't work."

But loads of his thinking in those books is terrific.

One of the great things about comics, like pop music, is that it's usually quite easy to get a bead on the effect and impact and overall 'idea' of the thing (what you're calling "mystique" I guess) and then you can work back from there and try and understand what decisions and accidents have gone towards achieving those effects.

Groke, Thursday, 22 February 2007 15:23 (eighteen years ago)

(The specific dictat of McCloud's Al and I were breaking, btw, was the "you have to have transitions between panels for it to be a comic" - from our POV, you could depict a single panel of complex action and have the entire course of a story implicit and encoded within it, without needing to sequentialise it into a panel format, and what you were creating still felt like 'comics'.)

(This makes these comics sound a lot more highbrow than they actually were - they were basically one-panel gag strips which would riff on the splash pages of corny silver age stuff. But they were still comics DAMN YOU MCCLOUD)

Groke, Thursday, 22 February 2007 15:28 (eighteen years ago)

Off topic, sorta: [linkOH NOES]http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=102399[/link]

Dr. Superman, Thursday, 22 February 2007 16:18 (eighteen years ago)

I GIVE UP

Dr. Superman, Thursday, 22 February 2007 16:19 (eighteen years ago)

poor huk

energy flash gordon, Friday, 23 February 2007 00:06 (eighteen years ago)

McCloud's making a dogma out of comics language anyway, and in a very stifling, anti-creative way. I find some of his observations to be very convoluted expressions of the stunningly obvious, and others just not worth making (and certainly to be resisted in a formal sense). He actually writes like someone who genuinely struggles to understand the medium, thus given to explaining things in pointless detail that a great talent (i.e. Toth, Kirby) would never give a second thought to.

I don't see 'storytelling' as a bluffword. I mean, if I use it, I think I'll use it with some pertinence. I might point to a particular page or panel and say the storytelling (composition or whatever) failed, because confusion ensued. If I have to sit and ponder a page or sequence before moving on, to figure out what it happening (as opposed to pondering its implications or deeper meanings, which is a different matter), I'd probably call that a failure unless the story was intentionally seeking to confuse or be oblique.

I try to draw comics, though. I'm not very good, but I try. ;-) I have enough knowledge, I guess, albeit basic, to spot some amount of bluffery in reviews -- people wanting to look smart and spot symbolism and meaning or narrative devices that the author plainly didn't intend. I've had that done with my own work, several times, and I always make a cruel point of getting this across to the person who's done it: 'No, sorry, you're talking arse, that's not what I intended AT ALL!' :-) (There was one occasion where someone read a really neat thing into something I did, though. And on reflection, I have to wonder if I should've just said, 'Well spotted!')

I have mixed feelings about reviews, including the ones I occasionally write myself. I wish I could resolve this. Someone help me.

chrissie_, Sunday, 25 February 2007 14:28 (eighteen years ago)

I find Eddie Campbell's takes on the notion of comics and what they are for (whether in How To Be An Artist, The Fate Of The Artist, or the short-lived History Of Humour) to be far more illuminating than anything McCloud has ever written on the topic. I don't dislike McCloud, or necessarily find him unreadable, but his desire for precise codification is very wearing.

aldo, Monday, 26 February 2007 09:49 (eighteen years ago)


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