Why do so many male comic artists draw women that look like each other?

Honestly Steve Dillon draws everyone with the same face

Well, at least the preacher guy and the vampire looked different. But I guess you have a point there. Still, this doesn't change my main argumen.

Of course you can say that in visual mainstream media, it is quite common that the hero/heroine has to look good, and this isn't merely comics' fault. Anyway, for men what's considered "good-looking" has a wider scale than for women. In films and TV the producers have to choose between actual women (and presumably ones who can act), which at least gives some personal variety inside the rather narrow stereotype of female beauty. But in comics of course the limit is set by the artist's imagination, and unfortunately that imagination seems rather narrow, whether because of pre-existing standards or because of their own lack.

I think your argument is inherently flawed, as you've chosen two illustrators who have a very formulaic way of illustrating different people.

If you want an example of a guy who draws everyone looking weirdly the same, check out Barry Kitson.

I think a lot of the time it isn't so much that the artist is consciously depicting their ideal, but more that a lot of comics artists aren't thinking everything through and are kinda lazy and just trying to get the work done on time. That, and their frame of reference is other comics, so they aren't drawing PEOPLE, they are drawing SUPER HEROES, and they have a strong idea of what SUPER HEROES are meant to look like.

Ha, I guess I'm just repeating Tuomas on that last point.

You're also assuming that most comic artists are competent draftsmen, Tuomas. A cursory scan of 90% of all comics produced should disabuse you of this notion.

I'm not saying they're competent draftsmen, but one could as why they are especially lazy in this regard. And Steve Dillon and the guy who did Berlin were just the first ones to come to mind, I think this phenomenon is evident with many well-regarded artists, such as Byrne, Miller, Talbot, or Gibbons.

"one could ask"

Though Talbot has actually gotten much better at drawing different-looking faces throughout the years, so maybe it's also a question of artistic progression.

they are drawing SUPER HEROES, and they have a strong idea of what SUPER HEROES are meant to look like.

Yeah, the thing is when you're used to drawing characters that are primairly identifiable through their outlandish dress codes, it's easy to mess up when it comes to civilians. I mean even with super crappy animation like on "The Super Friends", it's easy to tell all the heroes apart.

The problem may be slightly more widespread when it comes to female characters, but really I think that it's a pretty big issue w/r/t non-hero characters of both genders. Less noticeable with men perhaps because comix allow for a wider variety of non-conventionally attractive male characters (which yeah, sure, sexism, but we all knew that), and also FACIAL HAIR is a lifesaver when it comes to telling apparently identical characters apart.

One comic where it's difficult to tell most anyone apart (much as I love it): "V For Vendetta".

Also, there is often some textual save which will allow the artist to slack off. Like, f'rinstance, no one ever has to actually depict Wonder Woman as the most beeeyoootiful lady of them all as long as there's a character around to voice that opinion.

The fact is, most artists on a tight monthly schedule are going to come up with a set of shortcuts that work for them, and that might preclude making faces terribly dissimilar from one another. They're probably often working from memory rather than from a model or photo reference. On the other end of things, can you name many artists working under these constraints who are particularly adept at drawing a broad range of different male faces? Dramatic tension is sometimes derived directly from "sameface-itis" (see the whole "Booster Gold and Rip Hunter both have blonde hair...could they be the same person?!?" to-do in 52).

True, but that shit drives me up the fucking wall. It's one of the commonest and worst tendencies in comic book art, and it has been superdominant from the very beginning. Most artists have only two faces that they draw most of the time, one for men and one for women, a condition exacerbated by the fact that a lot of the characters wear masks that conceal the face to one degree or another. On top of that, most artists are absolute crap at giving faces any expression, so not only do all characters look alike, but you have to get cues about their emotional state from dialog or thought balloons. Drives me up the fucking wall, it does.

I think the 500-lb gorilla in the room is that, YES, VIRGINIA, ALL WOMEN LOOK THE SAME.

http://www.shortpacked.com/d/20070418.html

(not the funniest Shortpacked I've ever read, but I just stumbled upon it after checking ILC and hey, whaddya know, life's funny coincidences!)

So true. If women could grow beards, we wouldn't be having this argument.

We would be asking the more general question, "WHY ARE ALL COMICS DRAWN BY ELEVEN-YEAR-OLDS?!?".

This thread made me re-read CRISIS ON INFINITE TITTAYS, which reminded me why I don't post on threads like this. Because, you know, that thread covered much of the same ground and was about the third time we'd gone round the buoy, so it wasn't surprising it exploded in the way it did.

i figured this would be about betty and veronica!

I didn't mean this to be another "superhero comics are sexist" argument. As I said, this thing affect indie comics as well (not to mention manga, where it is the rule), and as people have pointed out, often applies to male characters as well (though not as often as to women, I think). I have to say, though, that some sort of streotypical image of female beauty is clearly at work here. Someone like Hugo Pratt was able to draw recognizable female characters with a personality of their own, because he wasn't afraid to draw women who don't look like models.

I think the ultimate sterotype is with the body though. There are a bunch of round male comic heroes, but I can think of few female comic protagonists who'd be overweight or even chubby, and this applies to indie comics and comics done by women as well (Strangers in Paradise and Dykes to Watch Out For are the only exceptions to come to mind). But as I said before, this stereotype doesn't really come from comics, it's just enhanced there, because comics don't have to deal with real people and real bodies.

Love & Rockets? Hate?

Pudge, Girl Blimp?

There are a bunch of round male comic heroes,

Um, aside from Bouncing Boy, who do you have in mind? And uh, aside from comic relief characters, who do you have in mind? (Blob and Kingpin don't count, they are villains.)

but I can think of few female comic protagonists who'd be overweight or even chubby,

Well, there's Getrude Yorkes in Runaways and Zephyr from Harbinger. They were pretty great. Big Bertha in the GLA, that's a little less great.

Sponge from DP7 was a fattey when she absorbed water.

Love & Rockets so hardcore seconded. I mean...Jaime draws cellulite! What more do you want?

Dian Belmont from "Sandman Mystery Theatre"!

Amanda Waller, at least in the original <i>Suicide Squad</i> series!

Dian isn't fat, she's just curvy, per the fashion of the time (reacting against the 20s flapper skinniness.)

Waller, though, is a big chuck of woman.

Obvious one, but, er, Will Eisner?

All Art Spiegelman's mice look the same.

a woman will come up and tell me that, as a feminist, they’re usually appalled by the way women are portrayed in comics, but there’s something about the way I do them that’s not offensive, and I thank them

It’s not self-censorship, but rather, we’re flirting with self-awareness.

Adam Hughes: Charmer

self-awareness doesn't stand a chance

Well, that’s how I end up looking at this – is it really a sexist or misogynistic act if it wasn’t intended that way on the part of the people doing it? If you perceive something that way, but it wasn’t meant to be that way, and it’s not sending people back to the stone age, is it really a sexist or misogynistic thing that’s going on, or are you seeing something that’s either not there, or that the artist never intended to be there?

How the hell can you see that statue as not sexist? I mean, if you're so brainwashed by media imagery that you do a work like that and don't feel like it's a bit sexist, good luck to you!

That interview is piled high and deep with bullshit. I dunno if my favorite part is where he (for no reason that I can tell) says in only a slight paraphrase "...and why can't white people say nigger?" or this absolutely direct quote.

"But to be clear, I do take this seriously, but in my opinion, it’s a non-issue."

Well, that IS clear!

Adam Hughes, Bush's new press secretary.

Here's a blog post featuring AH's original drawing that inspired the photo.

Well, I guess that's why Nardsarmada didn't bring up what I thought was the most glaring ick issue: the hole in the seat of MJ's pants. I was about to call them out for being CHICKENSHIT, but it turns out they're just gutless.

If you want an example of a guy who draws everyone looking weirdly the same, check out Barry Kitson.

Totally!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/plechazunga/ilx/losh03_js_10.jpg

I'm going to say that I don't see what the big deal is re: the MJ statuette, and then not post for the next 24 hours. Let's see what happens!

It has an inappropriate tits to head ratio: specifically, head < tits. Granted, this is hardly unusual in comix art, but it is still totally ridiculous.

YOUR RATIO IS INCORRECT

SKEETS SMASH

That was a fast 24 hours!

If you want an example of a guy who draws everyone looking weirdly the same, check out Barry Kitson.

Totally!

Haha, by coincidence I was reading the same exact comic that Lee posted a pic of yesterday, and was thinking, this is a prime example of samefaceism. I'm still not sure whether the dude who jumped out of the window in the beginning of the story is the same who joined the superhero group later on.

"Later on"? Doesn't he join the Legion right after he jumps?

Yeah, but later on they show a new kid who's just joined the Legion, and I'm not sure if it's the same guy, because he's dressed differently, but has the same face as everyone else.