Batman R.I.P. thread (inc crossovers)

I'm trying to go back through the Morrison run and read it 'as a novel' (morrisons words).

the only thing I picked up recently was the first words of the Joker on page two of his first issue was "I killed Batman".

any other things Ive missed?

I also missed out on the Raa's issues as they looked like they stunk, but now I think I might have missed some important stuff in the cracks between the shit.

Two germane questions:

1) What's the opposite of a black glove?

2) What's Bruce's favorite kind of art?

YOU DID NOT MISS ANYTHING IN THE RA'S CROSSOVER. NOTHING.

Well, except when Batman fell in the Fountain of Youth or whatever that was. That's pretty much the only thing I can think of that Morrison might run with. Other than that, I think the status quo was generally untouched.

What's the opposite of a black glove?

a white spat?

HOLY SHIT UNCLE SCROOGE DID IT

^^ Brilliant.

Barbelith's long (long, looong) running Morrison/Batman thread is a fine resource for finding bits and pieces that you might've missed- though trust me, you're not missing a thing without the Ra's crossover issues. When the best thing in the entire event is a couple pages of Paul Dini writing a throwaway 60's-style villain called The Globe, something is terribly wrong with the entire idea.

While I was resistant to it at first, the theory Douglas is referring to is starting to seem more and more likely after reading #677.

Though they do go way overboard reading huge significance into everything; then again, the BB is named after an Invisibles reference so I guess it's to be expected.

An Invisibles message board?!? Hey, you guys, ever hear of the 21st Century? Ha ha ha!

I have just spent the better part of a sunny afternoon off reading Barbelith's Bat-Moz theories. THANKS FOR NOTHING INTERNET!

Batman = Morrissey?

can anyone summarise barbelieths theories?

its not even sunny outside and I dont have time.

I'm seeing the world "Tulpa" with baffling frequency.

Yeah, they are bugshit for tulpas. As far as I understand the idea it's supposed to be an independent being brought to life by a practitioner's thoughts. Borges' "The Circular Ruins" is a good example.Wikipedia says Alan Grant used the concept in Batman in 1989, while Morrison started in on it in Fantastic Four: 1234.

...but don't think of Wikipedia's summary of "The Circular Ruins," for it is total horseshit:

In Las Ruinas Circulares by Jorge Luis Borges, the hole (sic) tale is about the creation of a tulpa that become evil and dangerous.

Um, no.

The prevailing theory at Barbelith and a few other places is that the Black Glove either is or is somehow employing Alfred. There are repeated references in Morrison's run to schizophrenia, a very pointed comment early on about Bruce Wayne's collection of Outsider art, and a not-particularly-subtle undercurrent of class conflict (try rereading the run and counting all the mentions of the Third World, poverty, and the sins of the ultra-rich). And the ending of the latest issue (#677) is extremely suggestive- I won't spoil it for people who haven't picked it up yet, but think about the possible implications of Le Bossu's last line.

Considering that Grant Morrison has been throwing nuggets left and right from old Batman stories, I think it is all going to end up that Bruce's crazy and institutionalized older brother Thomas Wayne Jr. or uncle Phillip Wayne is behind all of this stuff. Those are some other late 60s/early 70s Batman story threads that Morrison might be mining.

If you are curious about the Ra's Al Ghul resurrection storyline, check out the Batman Annual preview issue by Peter Milligan and the follow up issue in Detective by Paul Dini, neither of which were actually a part of the 'crossover' but are the best reads in that overall story arc.

How soon we forget Aunt Harriet!
(ps, I finished Showcase Batman Vol. 2 a while ago, and it is mostly dogshit)

(I think most of the "best" Batman stuff is pre-New Look, with the pink aliens and rainbow Batmen, and I'll just have to wait another 15 volumes for the Batman Chronicles to get there)

In re-reading the early O'Neil Ra's Al Ghul issues in the trade paperback a couple of days ago, I wonder if Morrison might be leading up to a point where Batman or Bruce Wayne vanishes. In the early Ra's Al Ghul story, Batman fakes the death of Bruce Wayne, so that he can go after him so that he can go after The Demon without fear that he will strike at his public persona.

Considering how much that Morrison seems to be channeling odd ideas from that period of Batman stories, it is something that I wondered about.

It is about two weeks until the concluding issue of the story comes out.

So I pose, who is the Black Glove? I've read and pondered bunches of different scenarios.

1. Thomas Wayne - He's not dead.
2. Thomas Wayne Jr. - Old crazy Bro is a bit jealous and comes out of nowhere.
3. Something to do with Darkseid - kind of a left field thing
4. The Devil - imagery seems to point that way, but not exactly your usual Bat villain, but Morrison kept saying he has been there 'since the beginning'.
5. Tulpa accidently created by Bruce Wayne through his meditations - kind of a Morrison type of idea.
6. Bruce Wayne aka Batman himself has gone crackers and has done this to himself.
7. Ra's Al Ghul - He's got the reason and the knowledge, which you could say about
8. Alfred aka The Outsider
9. The Joker himself - more my theory that he is trying to get rid of Bruce Wayne so it is just him and Batman.
10. Lex Luthor - The dude has some reason to be pissed at Bruce Wayne and has been hinted he has caught on to his ID. It would be kind of like Mysterio thing in that Daredevil book by Kevin Smith angle, so considering this is Grant Morrison, it really isn't a possibility. I'd like to see another big Luthor vs. Batman showdown, as they are really more the same guys than anything in some ways.
11. Jezebel Jet - Lots of imagery shows that she is definitely in on the game, but actually be the Black Glove, I don't think so. Why she would want to go after Wayne is probably the more interesting question to be answered, although a possible hatred of the rich could be involved.

I really don't know what is going to happen to be honest, they are either way out there or way too obvious.

they are either way out there or way too obvious. thats my view exactly.

its either going to be a new bad guy character called the black glove.

or Alfred who was hypnotised by Bruce Wayne to do this as some sort of test. ( i.e. some morrison shit that doesnt remotely stick except in morrisonland)

Not that I'm reading it, but the latest Batman & the Outsiders shows a post-(T)RIP BATMAN Alfred at Wayne Manor.

(law & order music)

as soon as batman dies I'm going to piss all over his grave

Well that didn't last long.

I would like an Absolute Batman:Morrison collection of all of Morrison's Batman work in this series.
I don't want to have to buy all the trades, and would enjoy the hardback binding & size of page.

if they thought that Batman:Hush would be a good thing to Absolute, surely someone's gotta be seeing dollar $igns about this, right?

although the batman: the black casebook will make reading his run more enjoyable to see what he's done with all the original versions.

You know, I read all this and really didn't like it at all. Just canceled my Batscription.

GOTHAM GAZETTE BATMAN DEAD #1 - I went ahead and picked it up. It was pretty much a set the table issue with the supporting cast, but pretty decent as at least SO FAR the story beats from the other titles are seeming to be threaded together in interesting ways (maybe there is an editor on the other side of the phone). The issue also had Harvey Bullock for about 8 pages, which is always pretty good.

While I was definitely skeptical, I think partially as the long lead times was kind of a buzz kill for my anticipation of during the last couple of RIP issues, some of the stuff they are setting up is looking a bit better than I thought and the follow up plans could be interesting.

I read this in trade format, and I gotta say, I absolutely loved Morrison's whole run. Even with the non-concrete ending and reveal of who the Black Glove was and what happened to Bruce (I'm guessing this partially due to whatever really happened in Final Crisis, which I have not read), I didn't even really care about those details as I reading it - the imagery, psychological examinations, summation of all Batman lore, this was just blowing my mind with every page. Also finished All-Star Superman this week - man, I just love Morrison right now.

I wonder how it would read in trades v. issues. I went off it a bit before the end reading it in issues, especially when it turned out to be part of that Final Crisis shite.

I think most modern comics with long loping arcs like Batman RIP read better as a trade than issues, unless the individual issues are setup well to be a 'single issue'. I could not imagine reading something like 100 Bullets as single issues, but then you have something like Watchmen, which is a complete series, but so many of the single issues are crafted and hold up quite well on their own.

I just gave my brother a giant stack of comics starting with the six issues previous to the official start of Batman:RIP and going all the way to Final Crisis #7. I, of course, took the liberty of rereading all the BatMoz stuff before the handoff and was very happy with it. VERY HAPPY. My brother, who only reads comics when I suggest and lend them to him (recent reads: 52, Captain America, Scott Pilgrim), reports no great difficulty following B:RIP and is enjoying it immensely. "Much better than the one with the bandaged-up guy."

I would like an Absolute Batman:Morrison collection of all of Morrison's Batman work in this series.
I don't want to have to buy all the trades, and would enjoy the hardback binding & size of page.

It was quite obvious, but its nice to see something done right for a change.

http://wizarduniverse.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=32679

but it annoys me that, it will be the third time I've bought these issues.

AAARRGGHH it was an April fools.

I'm gutted.

wow, what a cock.

boo! though i'd much rather see a softcover compilation of all his stuff, damn those absolutes are costly

Not sure what happened to this week's shipping list thread but! Morrison's Batman was really good this week!

Nothing happened to the ship thread. Same as last week. ILComix is dying. You know, like comics.

The Death of ILC -- big event of summer 2009. One 7 issue mini, 3 associated 3-issue minis, and tie-ins with 4 or 5 other borads.

And then I Love Cricket takes the mantle and becomes the New ILC

Cooking and Cricket battle to the death for it!

MOTHER MADE OF NAILS

Shipping threads don't start on their own--somebody's gotta step up and do it. I do it sometimes, but sometimes I'm busy or distracted.

I wasn't pointing fingers. I'm not sure if I care if there's a shipping thread on any given week except that it seems like the natural place to comment on the weekly comics. If we stopped them, tho, we could easily comment on comics in appropriate-enough threads.

Summer schedule begins: SHIPPING THIS MONTH: JULY 2009

What did you guys think of "Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader"? It was a pretty sweet, wistful take -- interesting that it came from the same man who wrote "Arkham Asylum" two decades ago. Definitely dug it, especially the Golden Age Catwoman story. It all hit a soft spot. On the other hand, though, I can't help but feel it's somewhat overshadowed by the immense "What the Butler Saw" post-RIP story by Morrison, even though their aims are different. (And didn't that story come out right before this one?)

interesting that it came from the same man who wrote "Arkham Asylum" two decades ago.

Gaiman didn't write Arkham Asylum, Morrison did.

argh! you're right. my bad.

man i gotta post less late at night...

It's funny, I was reading some of Cockrum's early issues of UNCANNY X-MEN a little while ago, and he sure got *funky* on some of his layouts and text/image integration. And he could do big action. And design. Really an underappreciated artist.

matt m otm abt cockrum's first x-men run - great character designs, exciting layouts that were never incoherent, lots of emotion/expression, and just a really vivid imagination. his earlier work on the legion is gd, too. (he also did an absolutely gorgeous inking job on gil kane on the first issue of marvel's john carter comic)

shame he was so slow, and so ill-served by his inkers on his second x-men run.

I always thought John Byrne and George Perez both had a ton of Gil Kane in their style too, especially Byrne.

http://www.harkavagrant.com/nonsense/sexybatmansm.png
http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=295

What's the proper TPB reading order post-RIP? Want to check out the books from the library of Morrison's run - last I left off was Vol. 1 of Batman & Robin (Dick and Damian). I'm a bit confused about when the other stuff comes in (Time and the Batman? Return of Bruce Wayne?).

I'll probably get the other Batbooks they have for same time period - I guess Tony Daniels was doing Dick Bats at this time?

Man...

OKAY:

Batman And Robin Vol. 1
Batman And Robin Vol. 2
TIME AND THE BATMAN (mainly as a prelude for ROBW - probably not necessary, really, but it might make things a bit more linear).
Uh... alternate issues Batman And Robin Vol. 3 + RETURN OF BRUCE WAYNE so that you read ROBW #6 before BATMAN AND ROBIN #16

FEEL FREE TO DISREGARD.

Thanks man, I appreciate it

Those last three trades are just a clusterfuck of story. Not necessarily in a bad way (though that Georges Jeanty-pencilled issue of ROBW will test anyone's patience). Anyway, I suppose the only real priority you'd have, narrative-wise, is ensuring you dovetail Bruce's return in both ROBW and Batman And Robin.

Jeanty's a reminder that artists can be pretty untalented in this biz and still get work if they never miss a deadline. Buffy came out like clockwork.

IF YOU WANT MY OPINION (AND EVERYONE DOES - MY PHONE NEVER STOPS RINGING):

I recall frequently forgetting what I'd read the moment I finished a page during the Tony-Daniel-as-writer run.

Jeanty's a reminder that artists can be pretty untalented in this biz and still get work if they never miss a deadline. Buffy came out like clockwork.

Reminds me of DiDio's recent comment (I think David Brothers tweeted it) about his main priority being ensuring a book is out on time; the unspoken extrapolation being, well, fuck quality or intent.

Kind of a weird complaint - I mean, most of the time it's the artist's fault that books don't come out on time, isn't it? There are a lot of reasons for this - particularly the much more detailed style expected from artists now - but I can't really fault a publisher for wanting to have books out on time. Of course, they could just start making a book bimonthly or pay for the issues in advance if they want to maintain a high standard of quality...

Right on about Jeanty though, his Buffy artwork was pretty weak

but I can't really fault a publisher for wanting to have books out on time.

You can fault DiDio for insisting that every single title they publish get three issues banked in two months, stay monthly, and never fall behind again. Well, "fault" if you care about the books being shit.

I may already have said this, but it was a bit annoying reading a story called "Batman RIP" in which Batman (or Bruce Wayne) actually dying takes place in a different comic entirely.

hey but two chapters of that comic appeared in Batman RIP instead! you can't say this isn't the DC era of fair exchange, effendi!

or of running titles that are just loss leaders for other titles.

the other rubbish thing about Batman RIP is that they did not leave Bruce Wayne dead for long enough. I liked the whole Dick Grayson and crazy Damian Wayne B&R run and was getting well into it... and then Bruce turned out not to be dead after all.

don't think Final Crisis was a loss leader for Batman tbh

and he was "dead" for 18 months, that's longer than Superman!

well I mean by loss leader that you have to buy a load of titles to get one whole story. not what people normally mean by loss leader I understand.

18 months still too short.

Just read the second Morrison trade. I doubt there'll be any kind of satisfying conclusion out of this story but holy shit I love the craziness, the occult stuff. And Zombie Batman was ridiculous!!!

Finished up those books. Holy shit. Phenomenal. I don't have the words.

Just Batman Inc. left after ROBW right?

Yep (as long as you got Batman 700, 701, 702 and Batman: The Return along the way, which all slot in amongst B&R and ROBW.). Though the last few issues have been cancelled, and an 80-page giant wrapping them up with some nu52-reboot-continuity-handwaving or whatnot has been solicited for December, as BATMAN INCORPORATED LEVIATHAN STRIKES MICK AND TITCH.

yeah, 700-702 are in the ROBW collection, and The Return is tacked on the end of the the R&B vol. 3 collection. ok, i'll probably wait until Batman Inc. is totally wrapped up, then maybe go nuts on the upcoming hardcover collection of the Morrison run...

did you manage to read B&R and ROBW in back-and-forth issue-to-issue order? if not, make a valiant effort with a couple of bookmarks next time, it really rewards it.

but yeah, if they include the upcoming giant ish in the Inc HC*, that will be a smooth read and perhaps the best consistent chunk of Mozbats overall


*hollow laugh - this is DC, so I assume they will fuck it up

Is there a proper reading order for all this stuff somewhere online? Or should I just trust the cover dates?

kinda sorta maybe

Batman & Robin #1-9?
Batman 701-702?
The Return Of Bruce Wayne/Batman & Robin 10-16 (interlaced)
Batman #700?
Batman: The Return

anyone else? 701 and 702 are "missing chapters" between the end of RIP and Final Crisis #6, so sort of fit before ROBW, which picks up from after FC #7 -- but whose 'in the past' stories then tie in with that month's 'in the present' B&R stories.

I think that reading 701 and 702 later in the game is good. There was some ambiguity about how mentally together Batman was after the events of Batman RIP leading into Final Crisis, and the reveal at the end of RoBW is that even in his confused state, he had a pretty amazing plan. 701-702 tie the pieces together pretty well.

yeah, it would've been better to read 701/702 at the end, i agree

i had to read B&R vol. 2 earlier, so i only interlaced the last three issues of B&R with the last three of ROBW, which was pretty great

got a little confusing keeping on top of both the Damian/Dick stuff and the ROBW stuff reading everything so far apart, but still it works

I still love the entire "Oh no, Bruce is fatigued and brainwashed and has been launched through time as a weapon and we have to stop/help him!" eventually gets derailed as it's revealed that Bruce had a plan and he actually hijacks their time sphere.

To be honest I found it pretty incomprehensible by the end of ROBW but loved it anyway.

A complete reading of course would include JLClassified 1-3 and Seven Soldiers, too...

Also, wait, WTF Batman Inc 8 is already out? [Runs to comic shop...]

By the way, does hints about Batman Inc's Big Terrible Thing We All Have to Prepare For ever appear in ROBW?

kind of? not that i know what's going on in Batman Inc. also they could've just been referring to the "big bad" of ROBW

I believe they're only referring to the big bad of ROBW.

and #8's been out for a month or so! I only got to the shop a few days ago, so -hem hem- previewed a copy when people on another board were bitching about how awful it is, and I'm so glad I did, because this was ABSOLUTELY the best way to read that particular story! Now that I've bought and read the paper version, I'm still not deleting the snidey copy, so I can revel in re-reading it all glowy and backlit and computery again.

just getting around to reading the trade of Batman and Robin. bummed Quitely didn't stick it out for the entire run, some of Tan's art is kinda dire

I was sad that the artist rotation happened during the end when everything really came together. I reread most of the 3rd trade the other day (Batman & Robin Must Die!) and there's a particularly jarring transition between artists. I can't remember what's on the preceding page, but there's one that begins with Commissioner Gordon in a dress and, while well-done, it's a complete break.

that's fated to be the lament about any long-form Morrison/Quietly collaboration. When they complete their projects together you get masterpieces like Flex Mentallo and All-Star Superman. it's a shame.

bummed Quitely didn't stick it out for the entire run,

stfu the Irving issues are >>> the Quitely issues

haven't gotten to those yet

I do enjoy his Joker.

Reviving this one, since it's the most Morrison-centric Batman thread.

New issue of Batman Inc. seems to start tying up Morrison's entire arc into a tidy package. Beware, here be ~spoilers~:

- Batman Inc. #5 (which is very much NOT very "New 52"-ish) follows up on the Batman #666 plot of Damian as Batman as a sort of failed Batman in the future, who has sold his soul to the devil
- It seems that the devil in question is either Thomas Wayne/Simon Hurt from earlier in Morrison's run, or Damian's done the same sort of magic/deal he did to gain immortality
- Thomas Wayne is back in the future!
- It's revealed that the future Bruce saw when he did his time jumping and was at the end of time was the same one as Damian's failed Batman run, and he's put together Batman Inc. to stop things now and also ensure that Damian never becomes Batman

So he basically started his run by introducing Damian, went through the Thomas Wayne stuff, and is ending the arc by showing that Damian (w/the evil Thomas Wayne in tow) is the beast that destroys Gotham (#666!), fulfilling the intentions of his mother's plot.

This one was a good one.

Not feeling Morrison much on everything else he's putting out, but his Batman work over the past year or so has gone from erratic/just sustaining my interest to tremendously assured.

Batman & Robin wasn't hitting for you?

His Batman & Robin run ended over a year ago, didn't it?

Batman & Robin wasn't hitting for you?

Various chunks of it were very good/pretty damn nifty, but only when Frazer Irving entered the scene did everything really click in a "Ohhh, so this is what you were trying for the entire time" kinda way.

everything old is new again
http://www.newsarama.com/24345-best-shots-review-batman-40.html

Man, I found that a really depressing comic to read.

It's like comics are finally taking notes from the Zak Snyder aesthetic. Depressing.

Coincidentally this week's Avengers also finished with a fight scene of two superheroes beating themselves to death, but it actually felt like dramatic stakes as opposed to humorless gratuity. Still, comics eh?