MAX Punisher

Yes, it's quite brilliant. It's probably the book more than any other Garth Ennis was born to write, and he does a bang-up job on it. Very de-sensitising though, I'm sure if I looked back I'd be amazed how many people die in it, or how brutal it is at times.

it's the Commando of the noughties.

FYI: They're coming out with an Ennis Punisher omnibus soon.

I'd like to second every syllable of Aldo's comments above. It's tremendous.

I didn't have any interest in the character until word of mouth prompted me to pick up the last couple of story arcs, and it really is the bee's nuts.

Just looked into that Omnibus - I'm surprised that they're finally reprinting his stuff from the beginning, the Punisher limited series (12 issues) from 2000, and THEN it goes into the pre-Marvel Knights Punisher series (this went for... 50, 60 issues? before eventually getting to the hardcore MK series/Born). Yeah, this shit gets pretty confusing.

I've only read the limited series, which was fun. I heard that the pre-MK series got weaker towards the end, but when the MK series started it got better.

Garth Ennis's Punisher is the perfect marriage of overrated writer and horrible character. Although I've never read it so it could be completely amazing, most folks seem to think so. But to me it's the same as Slipknot covering Alice in Chains, or something.

I'd disagree, inasmuch as both the Punisher and Garth Ennis have a lot of potential that is rarely realized.

I'll probably get around to reading more than the first twelve issues of this someday, but I'm in no rush. I've always been seriously underwhelmed by Ennis.

If I thought 'Pro' was over-rated rubbish, will I think the same of his 'Punisher'?

It's much better than The Pro, though is never drawn by a cartoonist who comes within 100m of Conner.

Every Ennis run is written in a completely different style - the Welcome Back Frank series (which was the first 12 issues of Marvel Knights, not a limited series) is a straight-up pisstake, apparently the second MK series had supernatural stuff in, and the Max series is dead-straight hardman torture-pr0n crime stories. The plot of almost every one is "The Punisher uncovers some child sex slavers/nuclear weapons/corporate criminals/mafia types. He kills a lot of them. Then he gets beaten up reaaaaaal bad. Then he kills everyone else." Now and again he fucks a girl and acts sulky during the sex to prove that he's really a cold bitter hardman.

Oh and Punisher Kills The Marvel Universe was pretty crap.

Ok wow I'm prob going to buy some Punisher. How'll I'll manage this given I have pubes is a mystery... thanks ILC, tho.

the Max series is dead-straight hardman torture-pr0n crime stories. The plot of almost every one is "The Punisher uncovers some child sex slavers/nuclear weapons/corporate criminals/mafia types. He kills a lot of them. Then he gets beaten up reaaaaaal bad. Then he kills everyone else." Now and again he fucks a girl and acts sulky during the sex to prove that he's really a cold bitter hardman

This summary is completely accurate, but somehow it's still brilliant.

To me the combination of Punisher and Ennis sound like the worst thing ever - the most horribly right-wing vigilante mainstream "superhero" combined with a well-known macho sexist writer. What's the appeal to this?

I mean, would there any appeal for a left-wing sissyboy like me? I liked a lot of the stuff in Preacher that wasn't overtly macho, but this seems only more extreme in that respect.

Frank isn't right wing at all, he's apolitical. In fact, if you wanted to place him anywhere on the political map he's arguably left wing - protecting the vulnerable and opposed to military campaigns that treat ordinary soldiers as expendable in pursuit of a nebulous agenda. If by 'macho' you mean MANLY MEN BEING MANLY there's very little of it at all. Brooding silences, slightly more of.

(Although, as usual, the overriding rule is probably IF YOU THINK YOU WON'T LIKE SOMETHING, DON'T READ IT.)

Also, I guess to appeal to yr ALL SUPERHEROES IS NAZIS trope, Frank is completely aware what he is doing is wrong but he feels compelled to continue.

Frank isn't right wing at all, he's apolitical.

Killing criminals instead of trying to rehabilitate them isn't a right-wing idea?? Even if he doesn't vote for Republicans, that doesn't mean his ideology doesn't fall firmly into the right-wing camp. I think vigilantism as a response to crime is a right-wing impulse in general, because it is about individuals "curing" crime by eliminating "bad" people, whereas the typical left-wing response to crime is trying to eliminate the causes of crime via societal means.

And I wasn't trying to judge Ennis's Punisher without reading it, I genuinely wanted to ask if there is something in it that makes it worth reading beyond typical Punisher storylines, which I do find uninteresting and politically suspect. Does Ennis do something new and interesting with him? I don't think he's a bad writer at all, but I was wondering whether a character like Punisher would bring out the worst (to me) aspects of his writing.

And freeing Eastern European immigrant women from a life of exploited drug-controlled prostitution isn't a "left-wing idea"? Seriously, you need to start expanding your terms or you're going to be permanently hamstrung by them. Your second sentence just reads as ALL SUPERHEROES ARE NAZIS (who you do, of course, realise were left wing, right? Socialists, CHECK. Environmentalists, CHECK. Heavy patronage of the Arts, CHECK. State control as opposed to the capitalist free market, CHECK. Do you see how easy it is with a narrow set of definitions?) ONE MORE TIME.

Which "typical punisher storylines" have you read to arrive at that view?

Oh, I've thought of something which will appeal to you - there's a plot where women are in charge of a gang and Frank kills them. DO YOU SEE? EQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY. Women can be murderous, abusive scum as well as men. FEMINISM IN ACTION.

And freeing Eastern European immigrant women from a life of exploited drug-controlled prostitution isn't a "left-wing idea"?

So this is what it does these days? Because the 80s and early 90s Punisher storylines I've read were mostly just about him hunting and killing drug dealers and other evil criminals. And it's not like I'm just using an "all vigilante superheroes are fascists" checklist here, those Punisher stories were more permeated by right-wing ideas than any other superhero comic I've ever read. See stuff like the Return to Big Nothing graphic novel for proof.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Punisher got his own series during the Reaganist 80s (before that he was a Spider-Man villain, right?), because his whole ideology is like an extreme version of the "harsh on criminals" ideas (exemplified by the War on Drugs) promoted by right-wing criminologists of the era. I think it'd be disingenous not to see the connection between Punisher and those ideas. In the early 90s there was even a one-shot Punisher/Daredevil crossover, where the same story of a criminal wanting to reform was told both from the rightist point of view of Punisher and leftist point of view of Daredevil in their respective titles. The Daredevil issue was written by Ann Nocenti (known for her left-wing views), and the whole crossover felt like a conscious effort by Marvel to explore the debate between Democrat and Republican ideas on crime.

But I haven't really read any Punisher stories since the early 90s, which is exactly why I was asking whether Ennis Punisher was still dealing with this same stuff, or whether there was somehting new in it?

Oh yes, and it got cancelled when Clinton came to office and only got renewed when Bush Jr was President. OMG YOU HAVE DISCOVERED THE SECRET HISTORY OF COMICS.

This is pointless. Wake me up when somebody else comes to the thread.

If you wanted to discuss this seriously, why the need to revert to such ad hominems? Of course I wasn't saying that Punisher is an exact parallel of the Reagan era, but that it reflected some of the right-wing ideas on crime popular during that era. I don't what happened to Punisher during the Clinton era, because I wasn't reading it anymore then, but it's not like right-wing criminology simply disappeared the day Clinton was elected president.

Or do you seriously think superhero comic books esist in a vacuum, and don't reflect ideologies and politics in any way? Especially comics like Punisher, which deal with "real" issues instead of cosmic-powered villains trying to conquer the world. What do you mean by saying that Punisher is "apolitical"? Just because he isn't a party member doesn't mean his ideas and actions have no political significance at all. And it's not Punisher himself, but also how the writers choose to present crime and criminals are in Punisher stories.

If you wanted to discuss this seriously, why the need to revert to such ad hominems?

Because you are clearly reading from a script rather than being in any way interested in taking in new information?

wtf, listen to yourself.

You're trying to shoehorn the whole plot of SOMETHING YOU HAVEN'T READ to meet one definition of an intellectual construct and not listening to anything other people are saying.

IMO it's far more disingenuous to "see the connection" between the Punisher and Reaganite War On Crime and decide that's what made it a success than to ignore everything else that was a success in the same era that didn't subscribe to the War On Crime viewpoint because they must have been successful for other reasons.

Or do you seriously think superhero comic books esist in a vacuum, and don't reflect ideologies and politics in any way?

It's good to see you don't use ad hominems, since you obviously don't like them. And of course I don't think this, it's just that my automatic first assumption isn't "the worst thing ever - the most horribly right-wing vigilante mainstream "superhero" combined with a well-known macho sexist writer".

Just because he isn't a party member doesn't mean his ideas and actions have no political significance at all. And it's not Punisher himself, but also how the writers choose to present crime and criminals are in Punisher stories.

Absolutely agree. Which is why I said ^^^up there that if anything it's a left wing comic.

(not to Andrew, that, obviously)

You're trying to shoehorn the whole plot of SOMETHING YOU HAVEN'T READ to meet one definition of an intellectual construct and not listening to anything other people are saying.

I wasn't assuming Ennis's Punisher fits into the same category as the Punisher stories I've read, that's why I was asking those who have read whether it does? The comment about "most horribly right-wing superhero" was about those 80s and early 90s stories I've read, admittedly it was a bit of an extreme statement since I don't know if Punisher's like that anymore.

IMO it's far more disingenuous to "see the connection" between the Punisher and Reaganite War On Crime and decide that's what made it a success than to ignore everything else that was a success in the same era that didn't subscribe to the War On Crime viewpoint because they must have been successful for other reasons.

I wasn't saying Punisher was popular only because of Reaganist ideology, just that it reflected it. But I can't really see your point here. Different things are popular for different reasons among the different groups. I don't see how the popularity of non-Reaganist superheroes serves to disprove the Reaganism of Punisher. Maybe these other superhero comics were read by other types of people, or maybe they served another function for the same readers. It's not like audiences have only one single mindset during a particular time.

[xpost, possibly saying what's already been said, or just wrong, but fuggit]

Tuomas, what Aldo's taking exception with (or, more accurately, what I'm taking exception with in Aldo's stead) is that you're doing the exact opposite of what you accuse Aldo of doing (re: thinking comics exist in a vacuum) by ascribing immutable and rigid "political significance" to the Punisher, and seemingly giving Marvel too much credit for thinking in these left / right terms.

Just because the character does these "right wing" things (killing all sorts of criminials, fuck due process, etc.) does not make the book or the stories pro-"right wing" jeremiads, like you seem to claim. Also, you're cherry picking your info -- you jump to note Nocenti's supposed political leanings (which you're basing on what? her possibly-current stint editing a pot mag?), but don't bother to realize that Mike Baron (the guy that wrote the first 3+ years of the Punisher book you're referencing, including the x-over) isn't exactly known for his political leanings, let alone his CONSERVATIVE lean.

Of course literature reflects (in some fashion) the ideologies and political climate of its time. That doesn't mean you can actually ogranize the Punisher's actions and motives into these nice and shiny pigeonholes and expect such a simultaneously short-sighted and over-reaching move to make a lick of sense to anyone besides yourself (and not expect frustration from other folks when you respond to questions with obstinate and misinformed rephrasings of the same argument).

^^^ this.

Okay, fair enough. I never meant to imply right-wight ideas on crime was the only theme in 80s and early 90s Punisher, or that it was popular only because of that. I think the "crime-fighter taken to the extreme" and "guns not cosmic powers" grittiness of it also had a lot to do with it. Nor did I mean to say every Punisher story valourized Reaganism. But I do think right-wing ideas on crime permeated the comic book (beginning from its very premise) more than any other mainstream suprehero comic I've ever read, to the point that even a not-really-politically-aware (pre)teen like me could notice it at the time.

And since this thread is about the actual book -- the Ennis MAX book didn't do much for me (Ennis + spandex, no matter how minimal, doesn't do much for me, tho, nor does the Punisher, unless he's a guest star in his own book, like Punisher War Journal). That said, the Born mini (about his Vietnam tour) was quite good (& features fantastic Darick Robertson art; DR might've been 90% of the reason I bought it).

Also you're right that I shouldn't have brought in the (possible) political leanings of the writers. Maybe Baron isn't a rightist, maybe Nocenti isn't a leftist, but the Punisher and Daredevil comic books they were writing at the time did have some rightist and leftist tendencies. For example, thesis-antithesis political nature of the Punisher/Daredevil crossover I mentioned didn't feel forced, because it felt natural, knowing the histories of the characters, that they'd take the stances they took.

(x-post)

I mean, even if those Punisher stories weren't "pro right -wing Jeremiads" and even if they did show some of the more sociopathic tendencies he had, his actions weren't really condemned in them, nor was he shown to be a total nutcase like Travis Bickle. He was still more of a hero than an antihero, and I'd say that means making a stance.

nor was he shown to be a total nutcase like Travis Bickle.

Are you still talking about the Punisher MAX series, the one you haven't read any of yet? I really think you'd better read what you purport to comment on before you go any further.

Isn't that the whole point of MAX Punisher? It points out that he's a fucking psycho in his 60s?

I'd rather write Punisher comics than read them.

GIVE ME JOBZ, MARBLE COMIK

Are you still talking about the Punisher MAX series, the one you haven't read any of yet? I really think you'd better read what you purport to comment on before you go any further.

No, like I've said several times, what I've been talking about here are the original Punisher comic books from the 80s and early 90s. I don't know what the Ennis series is like, that's why I was asking about it.

Yes, but lots of people have replied "It's like y," and you just keep saying over and over "But it used to be like x!" This is creating frustration. Your question has been answered, but you keep having a different conversation.

I thought I made it clear I was talking about the 80s/90s Punisher. And Aldo's and David's answers where about those Punisher comics, not the Ennis Punisher. I don't see why we can't have a general Punisher converstion on thisn thread.

a) Yes. b) No. c) ARGH.

I really think Aldo's and David's posts were answers to my comments about the 80s/90s Punisher. Read them again, will you? Okay, maybe we could've had a separate thread about Punisher in general and not just Ennis's Punisher, but since ILC is kinda slow anyway these days, I don't see any harm in discussing him here.

Does this include the posts where they say "The Punisher also does this and this in recent times", and you say "I never read that, so I'll ignore it?"

Because the one thing you don't seem interested in talking about is "The Punisher in general", just your specific view of the character based on what you've read.

How can I (or anyone) talk about anything else than what I've read? But if you've followed Punisher recently, maybe you can tell me what's happened to him? Is he still the same character as he was in the 80s/90s? Are his politics the same? According to Wikipedia the MAX Punisher is an "out of continuity" one, is the official Punisher different from him?

Anyway, I don't see why it's wrong to discuss the politics of those original Punisher comics without knowing what's happened to the character after that. It's not like it was all planned to form one big, 20-year long plot. I think it would be interesting to ponder why Marvel decided to make an Spider-Man/Daredevil villain into an hero in the 1980s, and what made him popular enough to get two different titles?

really don't want to get involved in this, but just to note that Mike Baron IS pretty well known as a rightist - here's a quote from the very first Baron interview I found on Google : "in Nexus I don't push a political line except for my own inherent conservatism"

Right now, I wish Frank Castle would shoot me.

OK, I'll try an actual serious answer so that if you get it direct it might actually sink in.

if you've followed Punisher recently, maybe you can tell me what's happened to him?

Frank is tired of being the Punisher, and realises what he's doing is the actions of a 55 year old sociopath, but his history won't let him stop being the Punisher, it keeps coming back to haunt him. That, and his sense of Doing The Right Thing - the non-revenge (by other people) plots seem to involve stopping human trafficking, the drugs trade and arms trade abroad and military action against totalitarian regimes.

Is he still the same character as he was in the 80s/90s?

He's 20 years older and sick to death of his life. But then you haven't exapnded on what character you think he was in the 80s/90s so I can't do a comparison beyond that.

Are his politics the same?

We've been through this before. You're projecting political angles way too much here and working off one definition of 'right-wing' without considering any of the other elements. If the question is really "does he still shoot people rather than open a shiatsu massage centre for them" then the answer is yes.

According to Wikipedia the MAX Punisher is an "out of continuity" one, is the official Punisher different from him?

Continuity in this context means that if he kills, say, The Vulture then that doesn't have to apply across the whole Marvel line.

Also, you've mentioned it a couple of times and I'm finally going to take exception to it - the Punisher was never a 'villain' in either Spider-man or Daredevil. He superficially was in his first appearance in AS-M but it was revealed in that very storyline that was only because he was being controlled by The Jackal.

Really? Because I reI think he was still considered a villain in some Spider-Man stories I read, where he would shoot even petty criminals like litterers, though it would be later revealed that he was under the influence of some sort of drug. Or was that part of the same Jackal story? Anyway, I think he was still considered a dodgy character in those early 80s Miller Daredevil comic he appeared in. Or at least his crime-fighting methods were opposed to Daredevil's, though Miller (being Frank Miller) did show him some sympathy.

Based on your description the Ennis Punisher could be something I'd be interested to read, so maybe I'll check it out. I'm still wondering though, is the official Marvel Punisher a 55 year old sociopath too these days? Or is he a different character?

We've been through this before. You're projecting political angles way too much here and working off one definition of 'right-wing' without considering any of the other elements.

Okay, fair enough. Can you explain me what elements of Punisher (the original one, not the Ennis one) make him something else than a right-wing character though? Because to me his modus operandi fits perfectly into a certain American right-wing mindset (hard on crime, the government is soft/corrupted and can't be trusted, some people are evil and can't be rehabilitated, vigilantism, individualism, etc). What I'm talking about is the mindset whose extreme form are American right-wing militias, not the liberalist (in the European sense of the word) free-market rightism.

According to Punisher's Wikipedia page all three Punisher titles were cancelled in 1995 due to poor sales, and his popularity was only revived in 2000 with the new Ennis series. So that would actually fit the theory that he was an emblem of the Reagan/Bush Sr. era, and lost his popularity during the Clinton era, even though I think it's a crude theory and doesn't really explain him as such.

Or at least his crime-fighting methods were opposed to Daredevil's

That's the key bit. Doesn't make him a villain.

is the official Marvel Punisher a 55 year old sociopath too these days?

Punisher War Journal is the in-continuity book. It's not clear how old he is, having aged in the same way any other hero has, and he is definitely not sociopathic. He's, in some ways a hero of Captain America and has fought Nazi seperatists in New Mexico dressed as Captain America (of sorts) following his death.

What I'm talking about is the mindset whose extreme form are American right-wing militias

What, you mean like the sort that in the very first 80s mini i.e. the one you seem to rely on, Frank is so horrified to find has been started in his name that he spends the mini trying to break it up and show that's not what he's about? I mean I can almost see your point but you're approaching this as a political comic that could be contstrued to have a vigilantist agenda, rather than a vigilante comic that could be construed to have a political agenda.

I made the Reagan/Clinton/Bush point upthread, shame you didn't read it.

I, too, am a bit wary of getting into this, but I just have to say that I've always seen the Punisher as a right-wing character, too; I sort of put him in the same niche as Dirty Harry, Death Wish and I guess more recently Boondock Saints, all of which have taken copious criticism for being right-wing ideology pieces. It's that idea of one man as judge, jury and executioner, because the system's so fucked in favour of criminal cartels and the police is utterly powerless because of endless bureaucracy so that it's impossible for Decent, Hard Working Citizens to go out on the streets at night and etc...

Of course, it doesn't immediatley follow that the comics the Punisher appears in are right-wing ideology pieces. Most of the stuff I've read has tried to paint him as a somewhat sympathetic anti-hero, like we know he's wrong but we feel him anyway. And I have to say, whenever he shows up in Spider-Man or whatever, I'd definitley count him as a villian - not purely evil, but then many good villains aren't! He's still someone that Spidey thinks is doing wrong and should be stopped.

I don't know if I've ever read a comic that buys into the Punisher's ideology wholesale, that actually holds up his behaviour as unambigiously admirable, though I've read plenty that sort of push the issue aside in favour of HOORAY TORTURE PORN. But then what I've read is mostly from the 90's, plenty of other comics were doing the same.

xpost I'd say that when the crime fighting methods devolve into "just shoot random bad guys, dude!" you're pretty much to be counted as a villain. I've no idea what this being a hero of Captain America stuff is but it sounds pretty mental, Steve Rogers in endorsing bloodthirtsty vigilante shockah!

Just as an aside, my favourite retarded 90's Punisher comic was about this Rush Limbaugh-type character who gets the feminazis/gay rights activists/environemntal hippies etc so riled up that he gets attacked by protesters outside his radio station, so Frank shows up and shoots them all, but in the end he makes a point that he doesn't like the dude's radio show either. Last panel has a the Voltaire quote about disagreeing with what others say but defending to the death their right to say it. I laffed and laffed.

I did read it, but I thought you made it up us a joke, I didn't realize it was the truth. :)

Anyway, I don't mean to say Punisher was written explicitly with a right-wing agenda, rather than that it reflected the Reaganist ideas on crime, often supporting them and certainly not condemning them. Of course not everything Punisher ever did can be seen as right-wing, but if you look at mainstream superheroes from a political point of view, Punisher certainly is among the most right-wing if not the most right-wing of them. Anyway, I can't see how something like Punisher could be separated from politics and seen only as a vigilantist comic. Most of the time Punisher deals with real-world crime, not some bright-coloured cosmic supervillains. Even if Punisher is seen as a teenage fantasy, it portrays crime, criminals, and dealing with them from a certain (if exaggerated) point of view, which automatically is a political point of view too, because crime is a real societal issue.

(x-post with Daniel)

Just as an aside, my favourite retarded 90's Punisher comic was about this Rush Limbaugh-type character who gets the feminazis/gay rights activists/environemntal hippies etc so riled up that he gets attacked by protesters outside his radio station, so Frank shows up and shoots them all, but in the end he makes a point that he doesn't like the dude's radio show either. Last panel has a the Voltaire quote about disagreeing with what others say but defending to the death their right to say it. I laffed and laffed.

Holy shit, that sounds awesomely cheesy! I wish I could read this comic!

How can I (or anyone) talk about anything else than what I've read?

Oh, man. This is exactly my point - I'm not asking you to talk, I'm asking you to listen! You seem(ed) unwilling to absorb anything anyone was telling you, in favour of the ideas you had about him 15 years ago. Which, considering that your question is "why should I read about this character?", for which the former is and the latter isn't relevant, seems pretty rude.

You seem(ed) unwilling to absorb anything anyone was telling you, in favour of the ideas you had about him 15 years ago.

I thought we were talking about the character Punisher was 15 years ago, not the new Punisher that I haven't read. At least I tried to make that clear. It's nice that Aldo now explained how the new Punisher differs from the old one, which was what I was asking about originally.

I've no idea what this being a hero of Captain America stuff is but it sounds pretty mental, Steve Rogers in endorsing bloodthirtsty vigilante shockah!

It's in the PWJ Civil War x-o issues. There's an explicit mutual respect between the two characters and they fight on the same side (during the Stilt-Man rampage?) under CA's proviso that Frank doesn't kill anyone while they're working together. CA doesn't particularly seem upset when Frank can't uphold him bargain.

Doesn't Cap punch him out? I only read the Civil War side of that.

Yes, but in a MANLY MEN WE'RE ALL FRIENDS I'M JUST DOING THIS TO KEEP FACE IN FRONT OF EVERYONE ELSE I WUB YOU REALLY way.

Alright, now I'm thinking of a "comparing scars" scene...

Er, at the risk of having Mr Castle blow me away, the Nazis were very much right-wing. Having the word "socialist" in your name doesn't mean you are one. Just like the Australian right-wing conservative part being called the "Liberal" Party.

I really think Aldo's and David's posts were answers to my comments about the 80s/90s Punisher. Read them again, will you?

Alright, I will.

Aldo: Yes, it's quite brilliant. It's probably the book more than any other Garth Ennis was born to write, and he does a bang-up job on it. Very de-sensitising though, I'm sure if I looked back I'd be amazed how many people die in it, or how brutal it is at times.

This is about the Ennis Punisher.

This summary is completely accurate, but somehow it's still brilliant.

This is about the current Max series only, as that's what I was summarising.

Frank isn't right wing at all, he's apolitical. In fact, if you wanted to place him anywhere on the political map he's arguably left wing - protecting the vulnerable and opposed to military campaigns that treat ordinary soldiers as expendable in pursuit of a nebulous agenda. If by 'macho' you mean MANLY MEN BEING MANLY there's very little of it at all. Brooding silences, slightly more of.

This is still Aldo talking about the current Max series, as that's the context established by both the thread question, his own posts to date, and the content of the Max series referred to in his post.

Also, I guess to appeal to yr ALL SUPERHEROES IS NAZIS trope, Frank is completely aware what he is doing is wrong but he feels compelled to continue.

This is still more Aldo referring to the current Max series, as he is both following up his previous post and SPECIFICALLY REFERRING TO FRANK'S MINDSET IN THAT SERIES.

And freeing Eastern European immigrant women from a life of exploited drug-controlled prostitution isn't a "left-wing idea"?

This is Aldo referring to one plot from the Max series. You even express acknowledgement of this in your reply: "So this is what it does these days?"

Oh, I've thought of something which will appeal to you - there's a plot where women are in charge of a gang and Frank kills them.

Again, this is a specific plot from the Max series that Aldo is referring to.

You're trying to shoehorn the whole plot of SOMETHING YOU HAVEN'T READ to meet one definition of an intellectual construct and not listening to anything other people are saying.

It's the Max series that you haven't read, not the 80s/90s series, so this is clearly what Aldo is referring to.

Absolutely agree. Which is why I said ^^^up there that if anything it's a left wing comic.

Apart from "^^^up there" having been established in the rest of this post as referring to the current Max series, Aldo is specifically here drawing a distinction between the 80s/90s Punisher that you have read (and was more simplisticly readable as right-wing), and the slant that Ennis is taking with the targets that he has Castle go after.

David: Tuomas, what Aldo's taking exception with (or, more accurately, what I'm taking exception with in Aldo's stead) is that you're doing the exact opposite of what you accuse Aldo of doing (re: thinking comics exist in a vacuum) by ascribing immutable and rigid "political significance" to the Punisher, and seemingly giving Marvel too much credit for thinking in these left / right terms.

He is referring to your rigidity in not only reading the 80s/90s Punisher, but especially in refusing to adapt your assessment of the character to how it may be written in a completely different way right now. In a conversation about what the book and character are like right now.

And since this thread is about the actual book -- the Ennis MAX book didn't do much for me (Ennis + spandex, no matter how minimal, doesn't do much for me, tho, nor does the Punisher, unless he's a guest star in his own book, like Punisher War Journal). That said, the Born mini (about his Vietnam tour) was quite good (& features fantastic Darick Robertson art; DR might've been 90% of the reason I bought it).

When he says the Ennis Max book and the Born mini with Darick Robertson, he is referring to the Ennis Max book and the Born mini with Darick Robertson. It is not a complicated secret code. He is also specifically giving his opinions on them because he is embarrassed about having contributed to your dead-at-the-wheel attempt to steer the discussion completely off track.

Er, at the risk of having Mr Castle blow me away, the Nazis were very much right-wing. Having the word "socialist" in your name doesn't mean you are one

Especially when one of your key policies is "hey, let's murder all the communists."

"DO YOU SEE HOW EASY IT IS WITH A NARROW SET OF DEFINITIONS" for fuck's sake fuckfaces.

And 'fuckface' to you too.

A know a narrow set of definitions was specified, but almost all of those narrowly chosen definitions were actually incorrect. If people are going to get so aggro about being misunderstood, they really need to be a little more accurate about what they say.

Anyway, that's it for me on this topic. Good to see people doing their damnedest to fuck up ILC.

hey guys how about when the punisher met batman

(which was the first 12 issues of Marvel Knights, not a limited series)

I mean it was under MK, not that it wasn't limited, oops.

One of the really interesting things is that there is quite a range of stories that Garth Ennis has done with The Punisher. The early stuff including the 'Welcome Back Frank' and 'Marvel Knights series are largely straight up crime stories mixed with a heavy dose of 'ha ha'. Included what I think is by far the best 'Wolverine Crossover' issue in the history of Marvel comics with some amazing zany artwork by Darick Robertson.

In the MAX series, the tone is completely different. It is played way straight and dark with a lot of gore and occasional bits of dark humor. Where Ennis really stretches out is in some of the one shots he did and the mini series Born which is about Frank Castle in Vietnam. The one shot called "The Tyger" with some really nice artwork by John Severin gets actually kind of tender. "The Cell" and "The End" are about the most bleak stories in the whole Punisher run. "The End" being a one shot with artwork about Richard Corben about the end of the world and the Punisher getting in his last revenge. The MAX story lines dealing with a character called Barracuda are all something else (if not at times a bit perverse).

All in all, if you don't like Ennis kind of macho man writing...I probably would not bother except maybe "The Tyger" or "The End". Personally, I like Ennis' writing (for the most part) and his humor, so think they it is all a good read. If you like The Boys and haven't read the earlier stuff, look it up, as the same kind o warped humor can be found in those issues.

The current Matt Fraction Punisher series is not like either the old 80s stuff or the MAX series. It is more of a shoot em up humor book, but it more zany and less crude than Ennis' Marvel Knights run. I can't remember the artist on the current War Journal book, but he puts some of these great goofy blank stares on Frank Castle. It is kind of like Chuck Jones meets Don Pendleton, if that makes any sense.

Howard Chaykin is still on Fraction's book, isn't he?

Chaykin did a few issues of Punisher MAX, but I have not read any that he did of the War Journal book.

I haven't read the most current issues, but the artist I was talking about on the War Journal title is Ariel Olivetti. He did most of the issues up through Civil War and into that storyline with Castle going over the border. That whole issue with the super villain wake for Stilt-man was pretty funny, but that one had a different artist.

Chaykin's been on War Journal for the last five issues. The most recent, #20, is part 3 of a 6-issue arc. Near as I can tell, he only did one issue of the MAX book (#50).

BTW, Goran Parlov's art on the MAX book is GREBT. In the Kubert tradition, with added Caniff/Sickles.

Just read the full MAX from beginning to end. Is it probable that Ennis' most enduring contribution to Punisher mythos is Barracuda? And in that case, is that death scene Ennis' way of making sure no resurrection will ever happen? Ever?

It was pretty definitive, I'll say that. On the other hand, Barracuda seemed to conveniently regrow some fingers after their first go-round, and the fact that they really didn't even bother to explain how he got away from the sharks kind of indicates a "reality...yeah, whatever" attitude.

My favorite supporting character in the MAX series is O'Brien.

They could have Barracuda come back as some sort of cyborg-reconstructed killer. But that's basically the only route that would make any sense.

But that's basically the only route that would make any sense.

I can't believe I just wrote that.

It was pretty definitive, I'll say that. On the other hand, Barracuda seemed to conveniently regrow some fingers after their first go-round, and the fact that they really didn't even bother to explain how he got away from the sharks kind of indicates a "reality...yeah, whatever" attitude.

He doesn't - I checked, being initially confused myself. RILLY.

Marvel announced today that Ennis is writing a six-issue Punisher: War Zone mini returning to Ma Gnucci from his MK Punisher series, out in November to cash in on the dubious-looking Punisher: War Zone movie.

Any day where I can write a sentence that contains the word "Punisher" three times is a good one. I think.

Ma Gnucci? Huh. She was that one that was a bare copy of that early Preacher villain, right? I only read the first two trades of the original MK series - did they do anything with her after that?

I've only read the first 3 or so issues of Preacher, years ago, so I can't really compare. If I recall correctly the last we see of Ma Gnucci is when the Punisher sets her house on fire.

There was not much left of Ma Gnucci by the end of the last story. I would think that Ennis would have to bring back Detective Soap for this story, which could be fun.

I'd rather see Marvel get Ennis to do a nice long MAX Punisher mini-series set in the 70s or 80s, as Frank Castle gets started in his war on crime. Considering the imagery of stuff like Goodfellas, John Gotti or other gangster movies set in that time, it should be a pretty good setting for such a series.

I was helping Mrs Doctor Chuck out with some research at the British Newspaper library earlier today, and, having no particular attention span, decided to get out some old Oink! comics -- they have the complete set! -- as well as the old Marvel UK weekly reprint series of The Punisher from the late 80s, in the hope of finding an old letter I had printed about the "Child's Play" arc.

Anyway, I didn't find my letter, but I did find this great one from "James Collett" (no address provided), which shows a very astute appreciation of the character:

Dear Fighting Talk,

I have some questions to ask about The Punisher.

1. Does The Punisher smoke?
2. What is The Punisher's best gun?
3. Does he like guns better than knives?
4. Does he prefer killing someone to just wounding someone?

James Collett

:D at that and

Based on your description the Ennis Punisher could be something I'd be interested to read, so maybe I'll check it out.

lawwwl at this

Well, I did actually read the "Welcome Back, Frank" arc, and thought it was pretty enjoyable. It did have some of that Ennis macho bullshit, but it was nice that it had a lot of humour, which has always been Ennis's strongest side. If the MAX series is supposed to be a humourless version of the Ennis Punisher though, I'm not sure if I want to touch that.

There is some humor, but it is less the center of the book like the early run.

That Punisher/Wolverine "team-up" in the first Ennis run is definitely worth checking out, as it is pretty hilarous.

Heaven knows the payoff is well executed, but out-of-nowhere change up (Senor Eyepatch, last seen about nanoseconds from being whacked, suddenly appears at Fisk's house BECAUSE THE PLOT DEMANDS IT (thanks, opening summary page!)) is just tremendous bad faith on Mr. Aaron's part. So yeah: DROPPED.