Mark Waid: C or D

Exhibit A has to be Kingdom Come.

Empire was brilliant though, so I say Classic.

The only Waid I have ever read: Kingdom Come, his fill-in issues of JLA.

I can hate on the Speed Formula because it led directly to the SPEED FORCE which was the worst, explaining what never needed explaining and sucking all the wonder out of the Flash in exchange for...what? A shit villain and a boring double sized fight issue.

-- Tom

(Sorry to single you out, Tom, you just bring him up a lot.)

Complaining about Waid doing the "here's the explanation for powers we've never explained and kind of don't make any sense, so here's something that isn't REALLY an explanation but at least makes more sense than mongoose blood and leads to plots instead of just being an expository band-aid" thing when that was such a huge facet of comics at the time is like bitching at Kane and Finger for giving Batman a cape.

I'm also not sure it was a huge facet of comics at the time. Or if it was I didn't like the other people doing it either.

But you're right, Waid has come to be a lazy shorthand of mine for a kind of 90s comics I disliked, an inevitable reaction to the Image 'thing' but an overreaction nonetheless. I should reread some of them - or read some more of his stuff - and get a better handle.

I don't think at all that he was a bad craftsman, his comics were always well-paced and readable - it's just they seemed so drab somehow.

C:
- his current run on _Fantastic Four_ (excepting a little hiccup w/ this Frightful Four nonsense) (& perhaps some of the Iraq / Latveria parallels); throwin' it back to the old-school (complete w/ the "science" & the Thing / Torch repartee), but not as an exercise in dustbunnying & also features the best plot-dead-end cop-out / homage possible (because if Jack Kirby IS God, then everything's OK)
- _Empire_ (story of an intergalactic dictator & his back-stabbing cronies; totally unlike his trad. reverential superhero stuff; someone w/ a better grip should possibly attempt to pimp this mini)
- the Professor Zoom / Barry Allen bit in _Flash_ (my fondness for TRIPLE-SIZED issues has a lot to do w/ it)

D:
- his mid-Morisson _JLA_ stories (which actually came off as exercises in biting Warren Ellis' "look what I read in the Science section!" MO that just wasn't executed all that well)

(xposts)

I'm probably badly mangling what I learned from stories in Comic Shop News.

I think I'm too much of an old-school 2000AD man to ever enjoy Waid. I like my comics glib and nasty. (this does not mean I like ponderous and nasty or glib and sadistic, of course).

Did Waid invent "Flash Facts", which were the Flash version of this?

Waid's respect for history vs Byrne's lack of respect but only bad ideas for what to use instead: FITE. (post Next Men Byrne, I think)

xpost

Yeah, it was twee, though it wasn't as twee (for me) as it could've been because it was coming on the heels of A) the Thing, possessed by Doom, getting ZAPPED! by one of Reed's guns & getting killed, B) Mr. Fantastic vowing to use his technology to rescue the Thing from Heaven, C) STORMING THE GATES OF HEAVEN! In essence, the entire journey was some overarcing metaphor for Reed's inability to embrace non-scientific modes of thought (also explored when Dr. Strange popped by a few issues prior to try & teach Mr. F, a prisoner of DOOM!, some magic tricks), and using the Kirby-ex-machina device (to revive the Thing, repair Reed's scarred face) is a bit too quaint, but for the simple fact that Waid was willing, in this climate, to write a story that's so ridiculously NOT in line with Marvel's current "keep it real" MO (especially following all the death & destruction & endless brooding of the previous arc), endeared the story to me.

Let's not talk about JB. Really. He punted Wonder Woman, he's totally punting the Doom Patrol (even though I think the retcon was an editorial edict & not actually his doing), he undoubtedly punted the JLA arc that re-introduced the new Doom Patrol, I imagine his undying respect for Kirby lead to him punting all his Fourth World stuff as well as this new Demon series he's got in the pipeline, and I know for damn sure he punted the Hulk the 2nd time around, and what I've heard about his work w/ Spider-Man reminds me of what happens when foot is applied to football. Essentially, post Next Men (though it's probably post-Superman), he's been deadset on donkey punching the super-hero industry, and it's only due to his diminishing stature in the current industry that he hasn't been able to do more to eff stuff up.

But I could be wrong.

Dan can explain "donkey punch", if need be.

(Except on rac.* -- Dan might remember the guy who inexplicably, at least to me, defended everything Byrne ever touched.)

Waid still sucks, though.

Who was it that wrote those big prestige issues w/ Alex Ross? I want to pin those atrocities on Waid, but I'm coming up with Paul Dini.

BUT I was too harsh on Waid - compared to some of the similar writers we have now he seems positively zippy, and his Legion is good. I haven't re-read Kingdom Come but I did actually read THE KINGDOM at the weekend, and it's not at all bad until everything goes completely out of the window for the final bookend and we suddenly get a different story entirely.

In fact The Kingdom is better than Infinite Crisis (though IC is more fun to larff about on messageboards).

oh hey Tom come on now

That's not always complimentary -- The Pelican Brief is more competently written than Zardoz, but I'll probably never watch it again and will continue to watch Zardoz every time it's on cable.

Uh, sorry, what were we talking about?

Mr. Waid is an entertaining speaker and personality, but I have to say that I haven't really read anything by him that's made a huge positive impression on me. KINGDOM COME is interesting a sort of oldschool strikes back against the Image upstarts, but doesn't really move me past that. EARTH X (which is roughly the same thing done in the Marvel U, from close to the same time period) is much more engaging. John-Paul Leon vs Alex Ross FITE!

JOHN PAUL LEON (over Alex Ross breakdowns) vs. ALEX ROSS (over pictures of his family)

But everyone else is giving him credit for it, so I don't mind doing the same. (Probably everything else I think about Waid, I already said upthread.)

Leon indeeded pencilled EARTH X. Ross did character designs and story contribution and covers and blessedly stayed the hell away from the pencilling.

Is there a LoSH trade that I might read? I know precisely nothing about the Legion, nor do I really care. Now, do you reiterate your recommendation?

I suspect, actually, that he has not yet fully hit his stride as a writer--unusual, considering how long he's been doing it. But I do like his more recent stuff much better than his older stuff.

His Legion is great too, also worth checking out: L.E.G.I.O.N. (with added Giffen goodness at the beggining!).

But...I tend to like those writers you usually seem to despise (Robinson, Johns, anyone who grew up reading comics and wants everything connected by a sense of legacy. I'm a sucker for those kind of things).

I agree that the lightness of Waid's work is what makes his ideas work. Even Kingdom Come, which is about as portentious as he gets, has this spark to it that keeps it from Johns-dom.

I personally think that the narrator being shown everything that's happening by THEE SPECTRE because what's coming is THEE END OV THEE WORLD is more important than the fact that the narrator looks like Alex Ross's dad. Not to mention the retarded 'everything is a generational conflict' motif, or the worst treatment of Wonder Woman (=Eve and serpent in one, basically) I've seen, or or argh.

I'm happy that people are liking Waid's recent work, but let's not go nuts on revisionism here: Kingdom Come is an appalling comic, and the fact that IC is both worse and more hyped shouldn't obscure that.

Yes yes, and you're welcome to think that, but that's plot, and I'm talking about tone.

I agree with Tep. Kingdom Come's flaws all seem to come more from Alex Ross than from Waid. The pomposity is in the art. Even so I quite enjoyed it at the time.

Mostly he seems like a decent writer. JLA says it all, really. Not a terrible run, but he had to follow Morrison, and hes a great writer. Which puts Waid's stature into perspective.

xpost: I agree completely with Tep. Waid's stories are light and fun, he truly loves the characters and doesn't have to revamp the rogues or stupid things like that. Anyway, I still love "Starman". =)

what would have happened to constantine if twilight of the superheroes had been published?.

Where does Waid's new job (as E-in-C of Boom!) leave all of his (lately) wonderful DC stuff (though is B&B the only thing he's currently doing?)?

FLASH! I guess the rumors of his Flash run being abbreviated were kinda true (tho the interview @ CBR suggested he'll be sticking around DC books a bit longer).

Oh yeah, the Flash. I guess I had just gotten used to not giving one crap about le speestere squarlette. Still, I find myself surprisingly dismayed about a near-future with less Waid stories.

Waid generally i know shit about - kit told me he sucked re the jla fillins when morrison had the run (and getting the trades i agree, but hey who could make it work with that art? certainly not morrison for mine - waids were just worse again) but then i got a waid writ supes trade from the library (ah fuck i can't remember - it was to do with africa?) and it was good.
so i invested ina coupla things thru ebay to see and ah um oh dear. i have a feeloing he writes way too much in hack form. but i have kingdom come in battered second hand condition unread on my shelf so maybe i'll read it tomorrow and let you know my take.

kingdom come: beatjacked an unpubbed enormo-Moore story.

Mark Waid stands up to, or steps away from, current spandex hegemony.

(but stays on Brave & Bold, so who cares!)

I kinda get the sense that Waid is taking certain positions out of defensiveness and necessity.

I've been reading this urban-gritty-noirish title by him called "Potters Field". By the final issue I have decided that it is only average.

I tried reading Waid's LoSH and thought it was about as enjoyable as a bag of sick.

You are broken in irreparable Alex-in-NYCian ways, Dan.

HUGGLEZ ^_^

It started off pretty great! Shame it lost the plot after the first year or so.

Haha I think I started reading well after that first year; I only got three issues before saying "oh fuck this".

The first eight-or-so issues are terrific and fun, all done-in-one stories, then Waid gets bogged down in too much plot and the overarching storyline gets "darker" in a way that's not particularly satisfying and/or necessary. I got the impression Waid had to rush the plot to tie everything up before "One Year Later" and the pointless Supergirl stuff started.

The floppies (which are probably pretty cheap) are well worth picking up as they have extra stories and old-school-lettercols in them, which aren't in the trades.

In other news, I'm sad Waid's finishing B&B, it's probably my favourite title right now 'cept for Criminal.

nooooooooooooooooo

Is it being shitcanned once he bails, or are they going to Bedard proceedings?

Has it been confirmed anywhere that Waid is leaving, or is that just more Lying In the Gutters trash-talk?