evolving ideology of idea of superheroes blah blah

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In the DKR thread Wooden said that the citing of Ayn R4nd wz a death-knell

Well, I kinda like DKR bcz it consciously makes this connection and (sorta kinda) explores it "properly": its politics is not mine (to put it mildly), but i find the clarity of it useful (plus also it's a pretty good unconscious critique of randianism, to say Rational Choice Theory works best if everyone is millionaire bruce wayne w.access to all possible technology anywhere

When Superman wz first invented, the inventors had nietzsche in mind - i mean, they weren't scholars or whatever, but they took a meme and transplanted it, and went with it

I don't like Watchmen, as ILE oldtimers will recall, but it's kinda fun read as a prescient diss of the recent neocon foray into world politics

and then x-men as mutants as potential holocaust victims yada yada

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 26 September 2004 16:19 (twenty-one years ago)

anyway it wd be fun if some of you guys who knew what you were talking about filled in the gaps for me

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 26 September 2004 16:20 (twenty-one years ago)

We may know more than you about comic books, Mark, but we won't have read them with your brane, sadly. I think you're right about DKR, though it never explicitly says what you point out about those choices being well and good if you're Bruce Wayne (I think Rand was against inheritance of wealth, though).

I think the Nietzsche element in Superman is VERY equivocal and muddied, in that it was of course a creation of a couple of young Jewish lads in the late '30s - I doubt they'd have wanted to be too associated with Nietzsche. I think the fact that superhero comics more or less started with a couple of kids feeling like troubled outsiders, creating a godlike figure to write wrongs, and rather identifying with him, has been the strongest factor in comics ever since - for better and worse.

I like Watchmen much more than you, though I think it's generally overrated. A lot of its political points are made by ancient comic plot devices, including the creation of the fake threat, and I'm not sure how much explicit political intent there is - I think Alan mostly saw a new way of approaching some old characters (did you know that the story was originally about the old Charlton characters whom DC had just purchased, but DC felt it would destroy them?), and saw ways of taking them to extremes. The characters who became Ozymandias and Rorschach are very good examples of this - I think Alan was just extending them in more daring ways, and seeing where that might lead.

Noticing that you could use mutants as a symbol of racism was one of the worst things that ever happened to the X-Men, I think. It's led to countless dreary meaningful (meaning: racism is bad) stories. It was okay at the start, where it was implicit but used lightly, but later and mostly lesser talents have been grotesquely clumsy using it. I think it's rather at the expense of actually addressing racism properly - the Marvel Universe has a just-about-tolerable number of black characters, and the number of stories actually talking about racism is nothing compared to anti-mutant prejudice stories.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Sunday, 26 September 2004 20:10 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah they "had nietzsche in mind" is a completely rubbish way of phrasing what i actually meant (what's their names btw i used to know this): they had heard of FN's superman and decided to invent an american "counter-version" (or something like that anyway) (i read this abt 15 yrs ago in the comics journal)

yes: to be aware (in the 30s) that FN wz pro-Jewish and anti-German, they'd have HAD to be scholars - at that time the job his (anti-semitic, proto-nazi) sister did on selecting and just rewriting his work after he went nuts was the primary source (and as a result hitler etc the main fan-base)

what's weird is, the version they came up with is probably closer, in its demotic compensatory way, to what he wz getting at (remember he wz a v.unhealthy shut-in plagued by migraines) (cf also: just days before FN went mad totally, he saw a man whipping a broken-down horse in the street - and ran and put his arms round its neck to protect it and burst into tears ----> my favourite FN story)

mark s (mark s), Monday, 27 September 2004 07:28 (twenty-one years ago)

(also, don't know abt rand, but one of nozick's best-known on the evils of state interference is abt the disastrous problems that arise from attempts to socially engineer against the inheritance tide)

(my line wd be: the critique is UNCONSCIOUS, contained in the level of "technical" choices and contradictions sedimented in attitudes towards good comix work, rather than overt = clumsy and larded-on-later expressions/discussions/dramatisations at the level of dialogue or moralistic endings or whatever)

mark s (mark s), Monday, 27 September 2004 08:45 (twenty-one years ago)

"best-known" = "best-known riffs"

mark s (mark s), Monday, 27 September 2004 08:46 (twenty-one years ago)

(sidetrack) The problem I always have with the X-Men as racism trope is that my conception of anti-racism is that I should not be scared or or hate other races b/c they are the same as me, just w/different skin. This is manifestly not the case for humans and mutants, or at least wasn't until recent stories showing the rubbish mutants who don't have good powers started turnin up.

Tom (Groke), Monday, 27 September 2004 08:52 (twenty-one years ago)

This was Grant M's most telling contribution to the X-Men, really, turning it from a rubbish metaphor for prejudice to a science-fiction story of species clash.

Tom (Groke), Monday, 27 September 2004 08:55 (twenty-one years ago)

(diverting sidetrack back into topic) one of the things FN was first to pick up on was that the anti-semitism that he despised and criticised in the mid 19th century was rooted in (unstated or anyway mainly implicit) ENVY of eg superior jewish intelligence, access to and skills w.finance, powers to operate supersecret world-scale cabals etc etc

so while routine imperialist racism looked down on lesser beings, anti-semitism was abt jealousy from (as it felt) below

(i've never read an x-men comic so have nothing to say abt how well this idea is tackled)

mark s (mark s), Monday, 27 September 2004 09:02 (twenty-one years ago)

who came up with the idea that superheroes formed a community? (lonely hearts club => social movement => nation => ?????)

the shift from atomised (and lonely) solo warriors to GROUPS is v.interesting also, given its american (= notionally "individualist") context: cf jazz then rock then rap groups in pop (also buffy) (obv)

mark s (mark s), Monday, 27 September 2004 09:06 (twenty-one years ago)

The superhero community thing comes out of (I think) All-Star Comics which imagined the superheroes as a kind of gentleman's club. They would all meet up in part 1 of a story, discuss the latest rum happenings then split up and have their adventures and then reunite in part the last to tell their tales over a superhero egg nog.

Since the MARVEL AGE the basic model for superhero teams has been the workplace. The Fantastic Four is talked about as a 'family' but it's more like a 'family firm'. The Avengers and JLA are basically super-offices.

Tom (Groke), Monday, 27 September 2004 09:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Mark did you know that Joss Whedon is now WRITING the X-Men?

Tom (Groke), Monday, 27 September 2004 09:24 (twenty-one years ago)

i think someone said on that big ile buffy thread!

the problem with all this stuff is i have lots of potentially interesting critical angles and have not actually done any of the empirical homework (haha as buying too many comics is now known)

mark s (mark s), Monday, 27 September 2004 09:30 (twenty-one years ago)

I think Kirby contributed some to the way superteams are shown - there was a degree of community to his FF and X-Men (not so much the Avengers) that there hadn't been in the JSA or JLA. His kid-gang comics of the '40s have that spirit as well, and VERY similar dynamics and personality types (see also his later, but pre-FF, Challengers). I am struggling to think of any pre-Marvel superteams that were created as coherent teams without much in the way of solo careers for the members. That's what changed the dynamic.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 27 September 2004 12:07 (twenty-one years ago)

one year passes...
This was Grant M's most telling contribution to the X-Men, really, turning it from a rubbish metaphor for prejudice to a science-fiction story of species clash.

:(

Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 26 October 2005 09:43 (twenty years ago)

Sadface because it's all been rolled back?

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 26 October 2005 16:33 (twenty years ago)


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