how little continuity can you get away with?

Message Bookmarked
Bookmark Removed
obviously, only rockists really go for long-term continuity. But how little can you get away with? Is it acceptable for a single issue of a comic to have no internal continuity? If so, should continuity be maintained in the course of a page, or is that rockist too?

I'm talking about proper comics here, not the ones that like to be all disjointed and arty and stuff.

DV (dirtyvicar), Wednesday, 29 September 2004 17:31 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm going to retcon your question and say that Mad Magazine often got away with this. And then anthology-type comics often had stories that contradicted each other within the same issue.

Huk-L, Wednesday, 29 September 2004 17:36 (twenty-one years ago)

It's to do with memory innit? You can have some key points that the average reader can remember over long periods of time (Batman is Bruce Wayne, his parents are dead), some less key points that it's still reasonable to assume the reader can remember with a month gap (last month Batman decided to investigate Jokes Inc. in case the Joker had something to do with it), and stuff that it's safe to assume the reader will remember from page to page (Batman just got shot at). Stuff like characters wearing ties in one panel and not others is below even this radar and nobody should care about it.

The problem with continuity rockists is that they put too many facts into the 'long-term' bin.

Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 29 September 2004 17:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Like obviously, the stuff in DC's Legends miniseries where Superman cousels Ronald Reagan on whether or not RR should outlaw the superheroes doesn't fit anymore.

Huk-L, Wednesday, 29 September 2004 17:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Never mind the whole Rocket Red Brigade!

Huk-L, Wednesday, 29 September 2004 17:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Stuff like characters wearing ties in one panel and not others is below even this radar and nobody should care about it.

There were several threads on RACMX about how Uncanny X-Men #337 was an unmitigated disaster because it showed Psylocke at a breakfast table with fruit on her plate and a salt shaker in her hand. Around this same time there was an uproar because Franklin Richards was shown drinking orange milk.

Dan Perry '08 (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 29 September 2004 18:38 (twenty-one years ago)

they're not continuity errors, surely?

DV (dirtyvicar), Wednesday, 29 September 2004 19:29 (twenty-one years ago)

The breakfast thing in particular was being touted as a continuity error because the silverware in the pictures kept shifting around and the food on people's plates was different in different panels.

Yes, I did mock them at the time.

Dan Perry '08 (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 29 September 2004 19:32 (twenty-one years ago)

"Cut me some slack, Hawkman. It's only my third time using an electromagnetic pulse to blow up a ship full of psychotic space lizards."

Huk-L, Wednesday, 29 September 2004 19:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Most of the No-Prize stuff essentially came down to continuity goofs, didn't it? Or rather, with devising creative ways to explain away continuity goofs? (This was simultaneously brilliant and doom, I think.)

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 29 September 2004 19:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Goofs of a "here's why the Hulk was purple in panel 2" manner, at the very least.

David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 29 September 2004 19:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Is the feather in Green Arrow's cap red or white? DECIDE, DC.

Huk-L, Wednesday, 29 September 2004 19:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Hahahaha!

Dan Perry '08 (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 29 September 2004 19:53 (twenty-one years ago)

And sometimes it's green!

Huk-L, Wednesday, 29 September 2004 19:57 (twenty-one years ago)

But his name's not Green FEATHER!

David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 29 September 2004 20:13 (twenty-one years ago)

But his name's not Green Singlet either, so you logic seems at best shit.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 29 September 2004 20:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh, but if only it had been. Eleven different writers would title a story "Sins of the Feathers," thinking no one had beat them to it. The Green Arrows of the World (Huck must know what I'm talking about and what the name actually was) would be called Birds Of A Feather. Dinah would make peacock jokes in The Longbow Hunters. Hawkman could say "You want a piece of me?" and Ollie could say "I AM a piece of you!"

(xpost, dammit)

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 29 September 2004 20:17 (twenty-one years ago)

You'd be amazed how much play the debate gets on the DC mb's, as well as the correct colouring for his son, whose mother is half-asian, half-black. They seem to think it's all the writer's fault.

Huk-L, Wednesday, 29 September 2004 20:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Next time someone asks me if I want a piece of them, I'm so going to say "I AM a piece of you!"
I mean, I'm getting my ass kicked anyway.

Huk-L, Wednesday, 29 September 2004 20:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Andrew, my logic is shit at all times.

"Singlet: An electron energy state in which electron spins are all paired."

David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 29 September 2004 20:20 (twenty-one years ago)

One No-Prize situation Marvel couldn't really weasel their way out of, but did anyway (those slimy bastids): an issue of Captain America (#308, according to my damning encyclopedic knowledge - 1st appearance of ... THE ARMADILLO!) where Cap's nose goes AWOL in a panel. Full face, no nose. Letters talking about dimensional displacement flood Marvel HQ to no avail. And in a future issue of Cap, the editors kindly offer a refurbished panel avec nose, with a convenient dotted line around the nasal area so intrepid zombies could cut out the nose and fix the error themselves! I think someone got a No-Prize, but only for going above & beyond the call of duty re: convoluted Goldbergian machinations that could lead to a nose going poof. (This was a Secret Wars II crossover book, though, so I think the Beyonder was involved in the explanation.)

Back to the stacks I go!

David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 29 September 2004 20:30 (twenty-one years ago)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

The moral of the story is: DO NOT PLAY "Got your nose!" WITH THE BEYONDER

Dan Perry '08 (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 29 September 2004 20:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Holy crap, I remember that. I'm not sure I would if not for the replacement nose.

This is another Marvel/DC difference: DC -- with a Superman who at one point can only jump and gets his powers because Kryptonians are just like that, and at another point can fly and is yellow-sun-powered -- always had a looser quality to their stuff, even if they did take the trouble to tag some stuff as imaginary stories. Marvel has always made the stronger reality claim, which is ultimately what we're talking about when we talk about "continuity."

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 29 September 2004 20:34 (twenty-one years ago)

("This" meaning "the ability, and impetus, to offer 'No-Prizes.'")

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 29 September 2004 20:36 (twenty-one years ago)

'Imaginary stories' is a great tautology.

Wooden (Wooden), Wednesday, 29 September 2004 23:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Um, what's a No-prize?

Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 30 September 2004 13:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh, for a long time -- I think they've retired it -- Marvel jokingly offered a "No-Prize" to any reader who, upon spotting an apparent goof, wrote in with an explanation (usually convoluted, sometimes elegant) for why it wasn't a goof at all ("the Cosmic Cube erased Captain America's nose! ... and then gave it back!"). Dubbed "No-Prize" because, contrary to what later angry "I didn't get my prize" letter-writers seemed to believe, there was no prize. Just a mention in the letters column, and even then mostly to get other complainers to shut it.

It was brilliant at first, because people really would continue to write in months later about the same goof, and encouraging other readers to explain said goofs away wrapped everything up. But of course, it also encouraged people to look for goofs, and eventually people were demanding No-Prizes just for pointing out (without explaining away) coloring mistakes or factual errors like Captain America getting something wrong about a WWII battle.

(The same phenomenon showed up briefly with DC when Waid introduced Hypertime -- the "there are multiple universes even though Crisis said there weren't, and here's how" cosmology -- with people jokingly saying "Oh, look, someone got Despero's eyes wrong in this panel, it must be a Hypertime crossover," etc. It's kind of a drinking game mentality -- when you have a way to interact with something, whether it's a mistake or a cliche or a trope, you end up looking for it.)

Tep (ktepi), Thursday, 30 September 2004 13:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Did Peter David ever get a No-Prize for spending a good chunk of his Hulk run explaining why the Hulk was ever grey / smart / stupid?

David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 30 September 2004 13:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Has anyone used Hypertime since Waid brought it in?

Tom (Groke), Thursday, 30 September 2004 13:22 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm not sure anyone's used Hypertime since Waid stopped writing Flash and JLA -- there were some mentions of it contemporary to his, but I don't remember anyone actually basing a plot on it. Essentially it's a concept that's only there because editorial needs it; this is another of those cases where the shared universe thing makes some titles jump through hoops they wouldn't need to otherwise.

Morrison was going to use it, but I don't remember for which title (was he going to do a longer run on Flash, maybe?) -- he apparently really dug the concept as Waid explained it to him (according to Ellis, iirc, so this is like thirdhand I guess).

Tep (ktepi), Thursday, 30 September 2004 13:26 (twenty-one years ago)

There were rumors of GM doing another Crisis-type mini involving Hypertime & the DC universe being a sentient entity, though I might be conflating all the hearsay I've encountered.

David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 30 September 2004 13:31 (twenty-one years ago)

That sounds almost more like Moore. Actually, Moore could do a really good job with Hypertime. I know he won't -- but still. It makes accessible the things about the DC Universe that he seems to love.

It's one of those devices that I don't love or hate. I think it was a huge mistake for DC to attempt to cockblock alternate universes -- as huge a one as if Marvel had shot the moon and done away with superhero costumes for that stretch in the 90s when it seemed they wanted to. You don't kill conventions. You don't need to require them, of course -- the FF don't have secret identities, Spider-Man went for half of his career to date (HOLY CRAP VENOM IS THE HALFWAY POINT ALMOST) without an evil doppelganger, etc. But just because they aren't necessary for every story doesn't mean they're terrible for all of them.

(Again, the problem with shared universes; it's like the Surreal Life or the Real World house or Big Brother I guess, you have to keep the fridge stocked with tofu dogs for Corey Feldman even if Hammer won't touch em.)

Hypertime worked its way around that cockblock without requiring anyone else to do anything new or change their approaches to what they were already doing. That's good enough for me.

Tep (ktepi), Thursday, 30 September 2004 13:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Psylocke at a breakfast table with fruit on her plate and a salt shaker in her hand. Around this same time there was an uproar because Franklin Richards was shown drinking orange milk.

Hahahahaha, I found this really funny for some reason.

I don't notice things like that but there's always that feeling of "So... what happened last month?" whenever I settle down to read a new issue.

Vermont Girl (Vermont Girl), Thursday, 30 September 2004 13:44 (twenty-one years ago)

How old is Franklin Richards these days? He was born in, what, '69 or something, and was certainly still a little kid in the early 90s.

Wooden (Wooden), Thursday, 30 September 2004 13:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, and they aged him to 4 1/2 in real time, I think, or close to it, and then kept him there for 20 years. God only knows. Someone actually suggested once it should be revealed that he's using his power to keep himself young and prevent anyone from noticing the weirdness of it, out of a fear of growing up.

Even if you just compare him to how much Kitty Pryde's aged -- even with the unaging -- he should probably be a teenager.

Tep (ktepi), Thursday, 30 September 2004 13:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Haven't any of the Marvelians been exposed to the same kind of bad science and hinky magic (as well as spent a decade in Limbo--actual Limbo, not merely comic book limbo) that keeps 'em young like the JSA?

Huk-L, Thursday, 30 September 2004 14:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Kitty and Jubilee have the mutant power of eternal jailbait.

Dan Perry '08 (Dan Perry), Thursday, 30 September 2004 14:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Kitty's totally legal now, though! I assume / hope Rogue is as well.

David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 30 September 2004 14:06 (twenty-one years ago)

it has to be said, though, that "Nemesis" went more and more rub as it gave up on continuity. so maybe continuity is our friend after all.

DV (dirtyvicar), Thursday, 30 September 2004 14:54 (twenty-one years ago)

As in "The Warlock"?

Wooden (Wooden), Thursday, 30 September 2004 14:56 (twenty-one years ago)

But Judge Dredd stories based on continuity are always poor.

Tom (Groke), Thursday, 30 September 2004 15:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Judge Dredd is just poor generally. They ran out of good Judge Dredd stories at some point in the early 1980s.

Genuinely G*R*A*T*E continuity moment: when Mek Quake showed up in Nemesis, suggesting that all of 2000AD (or at least Ro-Busters/ABC Warriors, Judge Dredd, & Nemesis) were all part of one THRILL POWERED universe.

DV (dirtyvicar), Thursday, 30 September 2004 15:45 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.quarterbin.net/img/rb5904.jpg

Huk-L, Tuesday, 5 October 2004 14:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Swipe alert!

Dredd is GRATE even with the added continuity of the recent stuff. I suspect Tom's aversion towards it comes from the innumerable 'I am OLD yes OLD OLD and WRINKY look at my SCARS' stories that plagued Dredd during the Lean Years. 'The Pit' was all about the continuity and that was fantastic - a 'graveyard shift' story that lasted for half a year.

Vic Fluro, Tuesday, 5 October 2004 20:29 (twenty-one years ago)


You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.